Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Bowhunting Would it............................

.................be akin to hair lipping the pope if I were to install a sight pin on my longbow?

I got broad shoulders and can take the heat if it's really that outta line, so don't hold anything back.

Dude....

That's what I was afraid of.

I haven't a peace pipe or peyote buttons and for the life of me am not able to become the spiritual mystical flight of the fuggin arrow.

Find a coach.

May have to or just conclude I'm too damn ethical to hunt with my longbow, hubcap sized groups at 15 yards ain't gonna cut it Buddy, I may not posses the cultivable talent.

I don't think it's a bad idea if it improves your accuracy and confidence for hunting. Sometimes shooting with a sight for a while can improve your shooting with the sight removed. In addition to a single pin you might consider the SRF sight.

For hunting the fixed crawl can be very helpful too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LthFu6fxjeM

PM Longhunter_1 and rost495. If those two can't help then you're nigh hopeless.

FWIW, how about details on the bow and set up?

I came to the same conclusion and sold my long bow.

What draw weight is your longbow? I ask because all too often guys get in a little too heavy and make it very hard to learn to shoot well. A 30# bow can teach you more in a couple hours than a 50# bow can in a couple years...

This is an excellent point. I know gunner can likely draw an English war bow, but form matters most of all and especially with trad bows.

Just a thought. When you practice try 7-10 yards. Pick a target with a very small aiming point. Roving a field with a fluflu and judo point can do wonders. Hope this helps.

Try this shooting method, with a lighter draw weight bow -

http://www.tradbow.com/public/310520-Shooting-Method.cfm

When I used to shoot a recurve I shot purely instinctive. I use a single pin sight in a slider on my compounds now and can't even imagine going back. That said though, there used to be quite a few people who shot recurves with pin sights and no one peed on them then for doing it.

First thing I'd ask is how much draw weight and how long have you been pulling it? You might be able to pull a dozer out of a ditch bare handed, but you still don't use the same muscles. So, it might just be a matter of time to get the muscles built enough to allow you to steady up.

Second, a coach or even anyone knowledgeable should look at your form and that can really make it a lot easier. No matter what kind of bow you shoot, it's all about form and consistent form. Quit doing the wrong things and learn to do the right thing each and every time. Just one simple thing like putting a death grip on the bow can scatter arrows all over the place.

In many ways it's like shooting off hand with a rifle accurately. Little things from your feet up to your ears can make huge differences. You need to stack your skeleton solidly and reliably to at least give your brain and muscles a fighting chance to do what you want to do.

I've no issue if someone wants a pin on their recurve or long bow.

I don't want that anymore, but I did have a recurve with them once..

And did tape an eraser on a long bow and put a stick pin in for a sight...

The stick bows to me are best done instinctive, but that takes a LOT of practice and short distances...

Personally I won't shoot past 15 anyway so hubcap size groups(6-8 inches or so ) are more than good enough anyway.

The other thought, if you are having trouble, it could be the bow just isn't fit for you... not that its a long bow, just doens't fit...

BIL has an old ben pearson 60 pounder... I can't shoot it for flip...

Go to my brack recurve, I'm fine and at 15 I can usually come close to touching fletches

Lost, many Thanks for the vote of support, don't know if I can get there without a pin, I see many replies down the page, maybe a solution lies there.

Thanks 4, I see at least one of them has replied here.

My bow is a beautiful 66" Dan Toelke Whip Longbow, it's marked 53 lbs at 28's of draw, my draw is near 31" so I'm guessing it to be North of 60 lbs with my corner of the mouth anchor.

Dan, I'd really hate to sell this beautiful, never fired anything so quite and smooth, I did kill a doe with at at 9 yards a couple years back, was standing in a huge crevice in a bench, a wonderful ambush point with a steady North wind.

The 145 gr Stos head made a sickening crunch/slice sound when it hit her, not alarmed much, she hooped about 10 yards, stopped, tail starting corkscrewing around and she fell.

BUT, first and foremost, accuracy HAS to be there.

Centershot, guessing this one to be a bit over 60 lbs at 31's, it's very smooth and easy to shoot, I've tried one over and three under to no avail, I use leather finger tabs.

Yes, used to shoot for years an old round wheel Oregon Deschutes bow with a 90 lb draw, it happens to still be the quietest and smoothest compound bow I've ever had/fired.

I started at 5 yards DCR, but moving back at more realistic hunting yardages caused the bottom to fall out of it.

I may need to invest in some fluflu and judo points.

I'm gonna check this out as soon as I get through typing!

Thanks 4

Miles, first of all Thanks, I can get stacked pretty solid and still have a good bit of strength reserves, but, they are completely useless without proper form, I appreciate the tips and advice.

10-4 on the above Rost, but the 'fit' part is where I don't understand, this bow feels like a fine instrument, everything I try to do with it including drawing and firing is so damn easy and smooth, I don't know what else I could do or even ask for a better feeling and easier to fire bow, I just gotta learn where to hold the dang thing.

I like it, and I have a byGod lot of shooting to do , but, I don't have a lighter bow.

I may have your old Oregon...

Are the arrows spined for the extra four inches of draw weight?

I like to say that it's like learning to shoot with a .22lr or a 30-06. I know which one I'd rather shoot 100 rounds through in an afternoon......

I'm personally a holder and gap aimer with trad and compounds. Holding for any length of time for me with a bow over 45-50# = the shakes after a dozen or so shots. My form breaks down and accuracy suffers. So most of the time I shoot my 30# limbs indoors at leagues etc and switch to the heavier ones when I go outdoors. Whenever I have a hitch in my shooting the light limbs come out and I sort out the issue before switching back. I think the sooner one figures out shooting well with trad gear is more about finesse than brute strength the sooner he will start shooting to his potential.

Have you tried shooting 'gap' with a high anchor and 3 under?

Your bow, if it helps your shooting, who cares what other's think?

Cloverdale this weekend.

Seen at a shoot long ago, 4 ft gap on a 25 yard shot, trees about a yard out from the stake. Both trees tore to shreds............yeah, some people run that bad a tune.

Bet they don't have a sight and that makes them feel special.

If you hit the target and take your game cleanly, that's good enough.

Screw what others think.

It's YOUR bow.

I love split finger but got hurt.
So went 3 under and higher anchor.
Gap system was stoopid easy.
Ran 2 sight pictures, and 2 anchors.
20 was one slightly low aim with high anchor, 25 was aim a little higher, same high anchor. 30 was same sight picture as 20, but with low anchor.
Deer shows up at 25, popped him right on the money.
Not fluid, not as smooth/fast.........but damn if it don't work.

Not running ILF and don't like long bows, so a fixed crawl proly not something I'll experiment with. My old instinctive way, split, or face walk 3 under. Injuries/time will dictate what method this yr.

Torn finger pulley tendons still funky once in a while (bow hand). Broken finger on draw hand is fine.

My injury bow is 43#.
My 3D/Hunter is 48#
60 was a chore when I got hurt, did it........but think dropping to 55 and having FF string should be same performance and a little easier.
Problem is.........can't find a HS58 like that. Everything is 60" or 60#. Ugh.

4ager, if you do it bet it's still a dandy.

Don't really know what this means AH64, my longbow arrows are the Carbon Express Heritage 350's with 145 gr field points to match the 145 gr Stos broadhead.

Centershot, don't know how or what gap shooting is either, I try to shoot sighting down the arrow, have also realized too much or not enough "cant" will sling arrows all over the damn place.

Thanks Hook, I'm gonna give 4agers cardboard training program a shot to see if I can do it mentally, if that doesn't work I may try a pin and say to hell with what anyone else thinks.

Having so many different methods of fire, I can't master any,

Double rifle
Sharps rifle
Peep sighted Levers
Scoped bolt guns
Iron sighted Muzzleloaders
Pistols
Revolvers
Shotguns at flying clay birds
Compound bow
Longbow

It's a compounded confounded cluster f-ck!

Sorry about your injury and hope you heal muy pronto.

I didn't make time to read below this post...

If its not stacking and you think you are fine... 60 would be a lot of weight IMHO, IE my brack is made to my draw length specifically, and only around 52 or so IIRC pounds. Plenty weight with a good arrow and COC head.( are there any other kind? LOL)

Anyway I saw the link, and I didn't read it, above, but i suspect its going to be telling you to start with any new to you bow, and start close. When I've changed bows sometimes I"m Way off... instinctively. Your body and eye and brain have to get used to that. I start up around 5 steps or so, and since you can ruin arrows if you are decent shooting gropus, I usually try a few aiming points and shoot 1 only at each.
Once I get to where im' not 6 inches or whatever off, I move back a bit at a time. I stop at 15 obviously because our deer move way to much at the shot and its not ethical to take longer shots here. I practiced way further out than that for caribou one summer..

But start up close and small... then move out. I'd think that a summer of shooting will make it all good.

And a really weird note.. I will shoot a glove before a tab, but I generally try not to shoot antyhing but bare fingers... its tough to get them toughened up... but I have much better release and anchor feeling.

Finally even at 15, I often make a tiny dot to aim at, and sometimes its something small like the busted nock off an arrow or even a piece of arrow shaft stuck in the block. Aim small miss small I think they say.

I HAVE to concentrate on the smallest hair so to speak, and then life usually worked right.

All that said, my recurve gathers dust due to a fire injury. I see it laying there every night on the cedar chest when I go to bed..... that sucks.

Rost, I had a lengthy talk on the phone today with an 'old fart' that's been an instinctive bow shooter for 40 years, hand, eye, brain is where it's at, I gotta shoot a lot to develop proper muscle memory, "hit where you look".

He used to shoot eggs and ping pong balls at 20 yards, if I can even get half way to there I'll be good.

Need to chrono my bow just outta curiosity, wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't near or at 200 fps, it is also extremely quite, have never tried a glove or bare fingers, the soft tabs feel really nice on draw and release though.

While a tab is fine for a compound due to reduced holding weight, I think you'd be better off with a good three fingered leather glove for the longbow.

Make sure your arrows are tuned to your weight/length. You're pissing in the wind right out of the gate if they aren't. A good tune can get you shooting groups with bare shafts at 20 yards.

Start close like in the link, and work your way back. Quit at the first sign of fatigue, focus, etc, and wait several hours or till the next day. A few arrows at a time, several times a day is a better approach. Bend at the knees and back, don't stand straight up like an olympic shooter. Push and pull at the same time.

It'll take till fall to get to where you need to be, where instinct is 2nd nature, and yardage is forgotten.

gunner,

As others have said, it's your bow, you want a sight pin, you put one on.

I made a pair of moccasins in a class taught by an old Apache lady. Wondered if it would be reasonable to paint some leaves (for camo effect) and such on them. Didn't want to offend or break any traditions. Asked her, she says "They're your "boots", you want leaves on them, go ahead and paint them".

Others have mentioned tuning. Have you played any with brace height? Sometimes little things like changing type of string silencers helps too.

Maybe try a dozen real arrows, of the wooden sort?

Sometimes I think the attraction is all the trial and error, kinda like reloading and finding that "just right" load. (After all , who wants to shoot a rifle that gets 2" groups at deer 50 yards from the stand?)

Good luck,

Geno

PS, I still have the moccasins and still hunt in them.

Olympians run tabs.

Got no prob running a KP300 or BW 3 under tab at 55-62# recurves.

After G Fred came out with his book, it made a ton of trad archers look like they had to poop while shooting an arrow.

Lots of crazy forms out there. Most don't work well for the subscriber either.

Look at the Youtube IBO Trad world vids.......think they are composites of stills, b ut you'll see different gear/form and the effect.

Also look up some Jimmy Blackmon vids.

As long as you are solid and comfy, can repeat it............that's half the battle. The rest is tune and methods to shrink gap so the short distances are learned quickly and ingrained as to be instinctive later.

A too low anchor will make for a huge gap and it's just too tough without a sight.

Like others have said, aim small, miss small.

Ping pong balls at 20 yards......we put a superball from gum type vending machine on a wood screw and strung it up in front of the 20 yard indoor bales and shot it on the swing. You'd be surprised how often it was scared silly, and how many times it got nailed.

Those postage stamp sized florescent stickers for pricing? Yeah, one of those on a sheet of cardboard on your bag target, or on your foam deer.

Hard to see what's going on sometimes. Not everybody has same visual acuity.

Paper tune is your friend.

This is what I get, various bows, all shot with tab.
Boringly repeatably good.




I run Goldtips for their weight tune system.

Note that after about two weight collars on a pin, the 3rd is about useless, as that much "extension" of the insert into the shaft reduced available length to flex.

That's when you ditch the weights and just go with a brass insert.
You can play tip weight too, but I go insert and collars as needed, so all I have to do is screw on 125gr Stingers, Snuffers, Strikers or field tips.

FOC tends to run 15-21%.

55# and I blow through deer with big ol Snuffers.

Think gloves maybe look more "right" with longbows, but my bud won state with a tab

I'm not saying a glove is the only way to shoot, same as a tab isn't the holy grail either, just an option to consider. I shoot 3 under with a glove.

And I'm not telling Gunner to bend over to mimic a monkey f'ing a football either.

aalf, I have a Howard Hill glove, I think, it's like leather finger mittens so to speak, it's very stiff and the purchase on the string while using it feels slippery at best.

I've gotta take my bow to a shop and get my draw measured correctly, then have the bow weighed at that draw length to see if I have the correct arrows.

And 10-4 on the sight target, push pull and fire deal.

Good shooting Hook, I've read about brace height too, I really need to find a traditional archer shop with someone that knows what I need as far as fitment goes.

I'll try my HH glove, but the tabs have a much better feel to them for me, my main problem I'm learning is I've been aiming down the arrow, I draw thew bow, hold it for a steady aim then release, just like I've done with a compound and pins for over 30 years.

My bow at a guessed 60 lbs firing that 145 gr Stos head flew through that does ribs at 9 yards with ease, because I was shooting uphill and with cracked bones in my left foot, I didn't go in search of the arrow, just grabber her by the leg and pulled her down the mountain a bit where I had a stashed John Deere tractor.

aalf, Three under in fact to me looks more inline with the true center of the bowstring, if that's the case, would that hold not provide a more equal tensioning of the limbs?

How I fixed my problem

Gunner, here's a glove similar to what I use. Super soft, double leather, and no plastic between like the HH. I've never used the HH, as my guy sold this style and that's what I went with, no complaints:

Glove

I switched back to traditional in 1986. My last compound was a Hoyt set at 81 lbs, and I shot split fingers with a tab. Never wanted or ever used a release. Made my transition back to a recurve pretty easy.

I shot split for a while, and then experimented with 3 under, and it felt more natural to me, so I stayed with it. Puts the arrow closer to the eye, however, I never aim down the arrow, or gap shoot, etc. Focus on the spot, draw, shoot, done, to me the epitome of instinctive shooting. I can't, for the life of me, hold at full draw like the compound. The minute my finger touches the corner of my mouth, it's gone.


Probably/maybe, but probably not a consideration, it all goes back to tuning the arrow.

I've shot cedar in the past, but shoot strictly aluminum. Easy to tune with. Start with a long bare shaft in the ballpark for spine, cut off in increments, while adjusting nock position, brace height, and point weight. The bow maker should have a starting point for you in brace height. Speed is not a consideration.

Dan, I know exactly what you mean, at the conclusion of my last longbow practice session I was thinking, "I have went to complete chit on everything archery I have ever learned."

Promptly went and grabbed my compound that I haven't shot in months, strapped on my tru-ball release, moved the target back to 30 yards, by this time the target was but a silhouette in the dusk, but, I could see the center of the block and knew where the heart lung blackened areas were on the target.

Drew and let fly with my fiber optic 30 yard pin, hit 1" to the right of the top of the heart dead in the lungs, PISSED ME OFF EVEN MORE !

Washed up, showered and went to bed mad.

Thanks aalf, I'll order on of those gloves tomorrow, and yes, three under just feels better to me, I will admit to dinking around split fingering and rolling the damn arrow off the rest.

My first compound was an old Martin Lynx Magnum set at around 80 lbs, circa 1988, it was a hard shooting old bustard, the 2117 Easton Gamegetter II's coupled with the 125 gr Thunderheads never disappointed, I still have one of those, it's bent from my first bow kill, slugged that doe through both shoulders at 12 yards up in Winslow Arkansas.

My first compound was a Bear Whitetail from the 70's....

I would ask a pro-shop or somebody in archery that you trust what arrow spine you should be shooting for your actual draw length and the actual poundage at your draw length for the bow. I think you are OK with the 350s, but I'm not an expert.

I have changed the spine on arrows, and had 12 inch groups shrink to 4 inches without changing anything else. The arrow I was shooting was too "stiff" for the bow, even though the chart recommended the arrow for the set up. I had similar concerns as you on hunting abilities, as I was not shooting anything close to what I had a few months before.

If you are seeing great variations in your groups at distance, it may be more of the arrow causing the variation, and not the Indian. It sounds like you know how to shoot the bow, I'd make the arrows were not causing you problems that form can't fix.

gunner: Back to your original question:



I would tape a matchstick on the bow as a sight pin, start close and give it a try before I changed arrow spine, changed arrow length, changed gloves/tabs, changed form, changed anchor or bailed to a compound (you know that's a fix).


I always look for the simplest method first and if changing your aiming method gives acceptable results then you won. (you might have to tweak your anchor with a sight). Just reading this entire thread would confuse me but I'm betting you don't need to buy something to get acceptable results. I've always heard that Whips are very spine tolerant bows but who knows? this is the internet

good luck

(if you're already killing deer at 9 yards, you've won the biggest challenge, getting close)

AH64, that's precisely what I'm gonna do, head to a bowshop and get my draw length with this longbow measured, then but the bow on a scale to see what the poundage is at that draw length.

Very interesting to learn an improper spined arrow can have that pronounced of an effect on accuracy, Thanks!

Lost, thanks for the additional tips, I'll give it all a try before I give up and sell this bow.

The getting close is much more of a geographical gimme than my hunting prowess, that huge crevice in that rock ledge is right under a well traveled bench, with a good North wind, you could damn near park a pickup in there and shoot deer from behind the wheel, the ledge runs lower about 100 yards down the ridge, you spot movement, turn and look North and wait for them to appear at 10 yards right above you.

Of course most get into archery for the challenge... there isn't much challenge to a compound. Over 100 compound kills and it got to the point if I was close enough, there was no work and no doubt of a kill if I wanted to.

Recurve made me start all over again and have to practice all the time and become one with the bow....

Then there was the day I was easing along towards my ladder stand and I noticed a doe looking at me. I had to turn around slowly due to angle and ease along stepping backwards while getting an arrow out. All at the same speed I'd been going, nothing changed... The issue was the next thing I saw was an arrow going through her about 17 steps out... I never recall anything like drawing, concentrating etc.... just blap.....

But now that I've read a bit of the replies... lots of good info. But yes arrows have to be a match... first.. and it should be bare shafted tuned, I assumed you had all that done to start with, it goes for any bow IMHO.

beyond that form and function have to fit you and your body etc... I did get G Fred Asbells book. I read it at the time. I don't recall anything in it anymore. But I suggest it as a read or if I can find it and you want to borrow it PM me. There was a lot in there IIRC that helped me create the form that worked for me.

Since we are going backwards.. my first compound was a PSE Pacer, circa 1978. Wish I still had it but sold it to buy a PSE laser mag... last compound was 1991. PSE fire flight... It still works fine. Dont' even have to practice with it either if my shoulder is good enough, shoot 1-2 to verify zero and its good...

Good ideas all, for small targets.

Another I like to use........

White wooden golf tees. Hardly bigger around then an arrow shaft. They stick well in straw bales, foam targets, etc. I found a big bag of them at a dollar store or similar. If one gets nailed, I'm not out much.

Thanks for all the hints folks,

Geno

Yep, and as you get better busted nocks work well, too.

Maxima 350 is .377 spine.

Dunno what a 31" draw and not cut past center 60# bow would need (most longbows have quite the wrap around at the shot).

Well, now that I'm off the boat every so often and have a chance to practice......................




I better get to bustin' nocks!

Geno

I use a single pin on my Dorado...it helps with accuracy, quite considerably so, so I can't see a problem with it

Rost, I'm gonna hand hard with the program and see if I can mash out enough confidence to hunt with it this year.

Gotta get it all gathered up and to a bowshop Hook, asap.

Thanks again for the tips and information.

I may have to go there DBT, we'll see.

To me, and its jsut me, there is a world of difference in ease of shooting on a stick bow from 60 down to 52-54 pounds.. not sure why.

But in the end, practice every day is the key. Start close, get it going, move out just a bit at a time.

And FWIW stick bows are, to me, built for up close and personal, not 50 yard shots. That helps if you limit your distance.

Best of luck!

Keep us updated would be cool too!

Jeff

Rost, I have a few appointments up in Ft Smith next week, I'll take my longbow and arrows by the shop to see Big Eric and get his take on my setup, I plan to keep all longbow hunting inside of 20 yards.

I used to shoot a LOT. 55# seemed to me, to be the weight where I had to work regularly to stay proficient.
15 yrs later I like 50#

I can shoot 60# plus, and well.
But I can get in the groove with less practice, less risk of aggravating injuries......at less #.

Bought a 43# rig recently. Sold it. Too light and too diff in grip from my reg rig.

So I might again have a 60# rig.........dunno.
If it was shorter overall length I'd be all on it.
I like a 58" bow and the one I found is 60".
No longer made.......can't find shorter limbs very easy.

Hook, my bow is 66" and wouldn't know how to reduce the draw weight at the same anchor point, I like middle finger in the corner of the mouth, seems the most repeatable consistent for me.

BTW aalf, glove should be here this week, got her ordered, Thanks.

Gunner,

Only way to lessen # is to run ILF or change limbs or have limbs lightened by whoever made the bow.

66" is a longbow, or a long recurve

If recurve, that much working limb (length), proly have a longer than 28" draw length.

I draw 28.5" and have skinny fingers, so can shoot a shorter bow easily, even 3 under.

If your gap is still large and you're having problems shooting instinctive, even with middle finger at corner of the mouth.......you can lessen the gap by keeping the same anchor but going 3 under.

It feels weird, and higher arm position makes it feel even weirder. But try it, off and on for a few days and see if that helps.

If your arrows are heavy enough you might find the gap small enough to allow you to aim the arrow as a sight.
That;s what happened with my 60# Blackwidow.

Made shooting stilted, odd feeling (compared to yrs of instinctive) but it was stoopid easy and allowed me to shoot my deer at 25 yards like it was nothing.

Still feels funky, but dang if it doesn't work.

Ya just never know. I did well with different system for decades, but injury forced a change.

If your recurve is 66" and you don't have a long draw, you might be able to do a "fixed crawl" to shorten your gap.

It's in that video I posted called "the push". Might be of help, maybe not. Worth checking out IMHO.

Since I don't run ILF and my bows are 60" or less in length.......I'm not messing with a crawl. I'll shoot unconscius gap/instinctive with my old anchor.....or use arrows as a sight and face walk (different anchors).

For stills and maybe vid of fixed or other crawl, different setups and how well the guys/gals shoot.....

check for IBO trad worlds videos on YT.

Thanks again Hook, this bow is too nice for a dumbass like me to fool with, I'll have to learn to shoot it as is, and will know the exact draw weight at my length on Wed, then can proceed from there.

Thanks for the hit on the youtube videos, will have wifey bookmark them for me so I can go back and watch em.

Edit to add, should have mentioned, my draw length is 31"s with my compound, Bow mechanic buddy set my compound out as far as he could and got the rest for me using the correct release, it works fine for me now even if my compound bow isn't set for an exact 31 inch draw length.

31 inch draw. Damn thats cheating, you are 4 inches or so closer to the game when you start than I am.

LOL

Gettting there is the fun part!

, I'll know much more about which direction I need to go with my gear when I leave the bow shop on Wed, can't wait to get in there and get measured and weighed, then have my arrows looked at for proper spine.

Okay, here are the numbers on my set-up.

Bow length: 66"s

Draw: 31"s at the front of the arrow shelf.

Draw weight of bow at a measured 31"s while on scale: 59 lbs

Total arrow weight with 140 gr field tip: 560 grs.

Total arrow weight with 160 gr Stos broad head: 580 grs.

Velocity at 15 feet: 196 fps.

Arrows: Carbon Express Traditional 350's, full length.

So here are the numbers, can the experts tell me if I'm spined correctly?

Buddy at bowshop said those arrows flew straighter than straight, I fired five with him off to both sides, behind and in front, he trusts me.

Many Thanks,
Gunner

flying straight might be seen, but paper tunes tell the real world about straight or not IMHO.

For a 125 grain head, per Carbon Express, you are in the correct spine.

However, reading on the Easton arrow chart, which covers 145 grain points, it looks like you need to increase the spine a bit.

rost and AH64 hit it well. Paper tune, and don't be surprised to have to increase the spine with new arrows or decrease the point weight.

Clay Hayes, the guy in the video, is a friend of mine and knows his stuff. He's also not one of the stereotypical "my way only" shooting "experts".

[video:youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-r1IqWjkKw&list=PLmWUoLyD4VWVPNmoNWP4utTbiPJHGLdkN&index=1[/video]

[video:youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=395C-r0knfQ&index=2&list=PLmWUoLyD4VWVPNmoNWP4utTbiPJHGLdkN[/video]

Rost, Thanks, regrettably I didn't have time to paper tune, will have to do that soon, a butcher bud up in Poteau has a paper rack set up in front of a target, haven't ever used it, but have seen it over in the corner of his shop.

Damn, what are they recommending AH64, 300's?

IIRC CE's numbers are stiffer as they lower.

Thanks for the e0mail and vids 4ager, damn that dudes good, a lot has to be said for flexibility/limberness when archery shooting I have to believe.

I studied Clay's form while drawing and firing his bows, that guy is as limber as a martial artist.

Nope - other direction. Your number would be 450s, I have some listed on E-bay that I'd give you, but they are cut to 29 inches, and have vanes on them.

I had an 80 pound Monster 6 when an assignment to Germany was brewing, and expecting to get an Africa trip or two in while stationed in Europe.

Thanks for the offer, I'll look into some 450's, you think I'm getting to much 'arrow whip?' being under spined?

I sure hope I get time to watch those videos!!! I suspect they are really good.

Jeff

I watched em and they are good, I'm gonna have to have wifey find me a damn contortion training course to get that low and limber behind my bow, damn that dude is dexterous.

Gunner - found some Easton 300s, sending you a PM.

Got it and Thanks AH64, speaking of setup, I noticed when nocked, my arrows sit a bit tail high, should I lower the knock point so the arrows lay flat?

Usually not.....

Shoot into your target with the arrow relatively level to the target, and see where the nock end of the arrow ends up. Adjust nocking point up or down accordingly.

If you go too far down, the arrow will bounce the tail end off the shelf, and end up nock end high, giving you a false reading.

http://www.bowhunter.com/uncategorized/how-to-tune-a-traditional-bow/

http://www.bowhunter.com/uncategorized/tips-for-tuning-your-traditional-arrow/

Thanks aalf, I would need to fire from my knee into a round bale or put my block target on a tailgate to get a straight on hit, the arrows fired from standing do look right on "angle of fire" upon retrieval.

I forgot to add, shoot at around six feet from the target for starters.

As long as you follow through leaving your bow and eye in the release position, you can gauge left or right nock position w/o shooting from level. True enough as long as your target isn't shot all to hell skewering arrow travel.

10-4 on the 6 feet, and yes, it's a newer block target that's not yet shot to hell, my old one was riddled to chit by my Mathews Black Max II.

I paper tune, but have no rack.

Last rig I checked I did this:

Cut a cardboard box so I can tape an 8.5 x 11" sheet of paper over the hole (hole just smaller than paper).

Laid a couple of Jeep coil spacers inside the box to anchor it to some antique table the old lady had.

Bag target set behind that.

Table was low, so had to shoot off my knees.

Knew it shot good, from past experience with other bows...but wanted to check.

Perfect, one after another.

Later I went to a range with sand pits and BH flew fine to 40 yards.

Boringly repeatably good.

My Dorado, Tradtech and last two Blackwidows.

Paper tune has NEVER sent me down the wrong path. It is not needed (got great results without it) but it's nice to be doubly sure.