|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,478
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,478 |
A couple of observations that I have had. I foot snared a large black bear about 10years ago that was tearing up bee hives. At about 15yds I shot him between the eyes with a 30 30with 150 grain soft points. At the crack of the rifle,the bear collapsed,only to bounce up again. I shot him again in the same place with the same result. I did it a third time and again the bear got up. I them shot him ear to ear with a side shot,and it was dead instantly. The three shots In the forehead,had all hit the skull, mushroomed, and slid upwards between the hide a d skull.Lesson: soft points don't work in the forehead. A solid would have penetrated the skull. On another bear same circumstances,I shot it in the face with a 12 gauge with bb s at 12 yds. The bear was dead instantly with the whole head caved in. Lesson: shot guns really work. Next one will be with 357 solids. Report to follow.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698 |
Reading posts on a phone probably isn't a good idea. Not the first time I misread a word or two in a post. Beers to bears makes a slight difference in the meaning. <G> On some of these threads I am pretty sure the posters had a LOT more recent experience with beers than bears. Phil, That has to be one of the best (classic) posts in Campfire history. I think a lot of people underestimate how fast a black bear can run. I worked in a Sporting goods store where we weighed bears and bought hides etc. 400 lbs is not uncommon in Wisconsin and 600 lb bears are occasionly taken.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,278
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,278 |
I carry a Ruger Security Six 357 loaded with 180 gr LBT style bullets Ben, that's exactly what I carry, both pistol and bullets, for grizzlies here in MT when I'm packing out elk meat. Apart from draping bloody elk meat on my back, I only carry pepper spray. I can see no real need for a pistol unless you just want to pack one. Either way I'd not be without spray.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,381
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,381 |
If you can draw and fire your handgun into a 6" target at 7 yards 6 times in < 3 seconds you are on the right track. When you can do this on demand w/ the gun you carry all the time you have proved your potential matches your reality.
mike r I won't say its impossible, but in a realistic situation, to become aware of the threat, draw the weapon and fire 6 rounds into a small target at 7 yards or there abouts all in under 3 seconds, I think one would have to be beyond well practiced.. I don't recall my old IDPA times draw and fire, but thinking even shooting 1-2 times a month I was no where near that fast... But if you could, you should be well protected. It is actually quite doable w/ a reasonable amount of practice. In the backcountry I usually carry my Glock in an HPG kit bag and I have to train regularly to draw and fire 6 from it in< 3 sec. I dryfire from it while on the treadmill at least twice/ week. mike r
Don't wish it were easier Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that. Craig Douglas ECQC
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,278
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,278 |
Brad,
We don't have grizzlies in Colorado (I think)In the summer I sometimes carry a titanium 4" .357 with 7 180gr Buffalo bear buster bullets. In 40 years of hunting/camping I only have had one bear experience. I was scouting for MD in late August camped in my little Hilleberge UNA. Warm night left the front open. My attack beagle was asleep at my feet. I awoke to a pretty good sized black bear snuffing my face. yikes! I made some short of sound, bear bolted. dog woke up ran over my face. .357 was useless as it was outside my bag. I thought about bringing it in the bag but didn't want to have a dream and end up blowing my nuts off....long night. I have carried bear spray in areas were there were grizzlies. My daughter was a wrangler in Yellowstone and the Tetons for 3 or 4 years and she always carried spray but never had to use it.
LC
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 80
Campfire Greenhorn
|
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 80 |
Bear spray?
There's group that studied bear attacks and incidences, collected a ton of data and charted it. I watched their entire long video report. I'm not an expert but I'll repeat what I remember...
Their advice was: - you have to carry something! Gun or bear spray, which ever you feel more proficient with, but every one in your party should carry something.
- the bear spray is more efficient protection than a gun. They clarified that this is all about being proficient with what you carry.
After watching the report I now carry bear spray. I'll have a lightweight revolver on me too but it's not my primary bear defense and I'll tell you why.
If I'm backpacking and I reach an area that has poor visibility I'll simply unholster my bear spray and carry it in my hand, at the ready. I can't comfortably do that with my handgun.
Also, the risk of running into another hiker with gun drawn is very uncool imo but having the bear spray dawn is non-threatening.
I see people out there with nothing at all to guys carrying all sorts of heavy artillery but I don't judge. I figure I'll carry what I'm comfortable with and mind my business.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,633
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,633 |
For curious bears the spray is okay... as long as you have something else lethal. For all other bears the spray is a joke. The worse joke is a bunch of the data collected "proving" spray is better...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,668
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,668 |
A man after my own heart. You ought to see how ineffective pepper spray or the much more powerful MACE products are on bad guys. Any bear is far stronger and tougher than any human. E
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
...Lesson: soft points don't work in the forehead. A solid would have penetrated the skull. On another bear same circumstances,I shot it in the face with a 12 gauge with bb s at 12 yds. The bear was dead instantly with the whole head caved in. Lesson: shot guns really work. Next one will be with 357 solids. Report to follow. Well, yes and no. I've had analytical dealings with GSW's on human skulls more often than bear skulls, so you can take my advice with a grain of salt if you like. But the problem with punching through the skull is most of the time not so much due to the caliber or shape or construction of the bullet, but the angle at which the bullet strikes the skull. I've seen (and treated) guys walking and talking who've been shot in the head at close range with 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP and because the bullets hit the skull at too much of an angle, the bullets failed to penetrate the bone and simply tunneled around under the scalp. One guy survived 4 hits from police 180 gr .40 caliber GDHP's, but was conscious and talking to me in the ER. If you think about it, this makes sense: our skulls (and those of our relatives in the animal kingdom) evolved as rounded/pointed shapes because these shapes reflect blows/missiles more effectively than square shapes. A .22LR soft lead bullet will punch through the skull at close range if it strikes the skull at close to 90 degrees. Now, I'm sure you increase your wiggle room in terms of angle if you ramp up the velocity or use a sharp-shouldered WFN bullet, but even then you can't underestimate the design features of mammalian skulls. As Phil pointed out--and I will not comment on the number of bears, or beers, he has under his belt--a 9mm 147 gr bullet has more than enough punch to drill a hole thru the skull and into the medulla of any bruin walking this earth. But you'd best place that shot at an angle as close to perpendicular as you can manage, just to be sure.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,735
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,735 |
Just a few observations. Critical to Phils observation is being able to hit your target. One thing to hit a paper target, he's got a LOT more experience being under pressure of a bear. I can tell you from experience, being in close proximity to grizzlys will definitely promote some Adrenalin in to the old blood vessels. They also don't help your shooting abilities. I agree that a good hard cast 357 is a bout minimum, but hitting the brain or CNS at a few feet is not an easy task. Takes nerves of steel. It doesn't hurt to be over prepared. I prefer rounds that start with a .4..
Any time a black bear decides to follow you, you better be on your game as that is a bear that is looking for an opportunity to have a picnic, with you as the primary meal. Black bears can get curious, and try to get a better look or smell, but they don't typically follow you. As Art is saying I especially don't trust black bears with pepper spray. Yes it may work, but the bear will be back once he's past the influence of the spray. When you are close enough to need the spray, I'd prefer a little more influence to determine the outcome.
What works for one bear may or may not work on another. I remember several years ago down on the Russian River a guy fishing only had a 9mm. He shot it several times and the bear eventually died, but it could have gone either way depending on proximity. It was a juvenile bear and they can be testy.
NRA LIFE MEMBER GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS ESPECIALLY THE SNIPERS! "Suppose you were an idiot And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself." -Mark Twain
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 25,098
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 25,098 |
...Lesson: soft points don't work in the forehead. A solid would have penetrated the skull. On another bear same circumstances,I shot it in the face with a 12 gauge with bb s at 12 yds. The bear was dead instantly with the whole head caved in. Lesson: shot guns really work. Next one will be with 357 solids. Report to follow. Well, yes and no. I've had analytical dealings with GSW's on human skulls more often than bear skulls, so you can take my advice with a grain of salt if you like. But the problem with punching through the skull is most of the time not so much due to the caliber or shape or construction of the bullet, but the angle at which the bullet strikes the skull. I've seen (and treated) guys walking and talking who've been shot in the head at close range with 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP and because the bullets hit the skull at too much of an angle, the bullets failed to penetrate the bone and simply tunneled around under the scalp. One guy survived 4 hits from police 180 gr .40 caliber GDHP's, but was conscious and talking to me in the ER. If you think about it, this makes sense: our skulls (and those of our relatives in the animal kingdom) evolved as rounded/pointed shapes because these shapes reflect blows/missiles more effectively than square shapes. A .22LR soft lead bullet will punch through the skull at close range if it strikes the skull at close to 90 degrees. Now, I'm sure you increase your wiggle room in terms of angle if you ramp up the velocity or use a sharp-shouldered WFN bullet, but even then you can't underestimate the design features of mammalian skulls. As Phil pointed out--and I will not comment on the number of bears, or beers, he has under his belt--a 9mm 147 gr bullet has more than enough punch to drill a hole thru the skull and into the medulla of any bruin walking this earth. But you'd best place that shot at an angle as close to perpendicular as you can manage, just to be sure. I absolutely agree about the angle of impact being a factor on penetration, but the "evolution" of the skull having to do with blows and missile strikes? I'd guess just getting out of the birth canal has a lot more to do with it. Square headed babies would tear a pu$$y up! As to the OP, a 9mm wouldn't bother me in the least.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 25,098
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 25,098 |
I know on the first hand that a 100# black bear can/did take 8 124 grn gold dots and stand and look at me at 15 ft. (I have some of the slugs I will post pictures if I can find them. ) The bear stood on all fours looking at me and took 6 like he was being stung by bees no reaction of pain or so on. He slowly turned and walked away and took two more. 5 minutes later about 40 yards away he let out a death moan. You can pack what you want but I recommend 357 10mm 45acp and up. This is a pic of the two that were in the lungs. And yes bear on the coast of wa all bear are shot at any size as they eat a good number of fawns and elk calves. Whoa!!! That human baby is likely older than that bear baby! Lol.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
ou ought to see how ineffective pepper spray or the much more powerful MACE products are on bad guys. Any bear is far stronger and tougher than any human. Well, you can't compare apples to oranges nor can you compare bears to people without some qualifiers. Pepper spray has a pretty good record on both bears and people the first time or two they get sprayed. But a mean man who's been sprayed before can learn to fight through it, especially if he's numbed up on booze and/or drugs. I have some direct experience in that line of research. An OC-naïve bear will usually respond as desired the first time you spray him, if you hit him right, and that should be the end of it... but if he comes back again you're unlikely to stop him with spray.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,962
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,962 |
Phil, Any words on your bullet testing? Kurt
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 146
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 146 |
ou ought to see how ineffective pepper spray or the much more powerful MACE products are on bad guys. Any bear is far stronger and tougher than any human. Well, you can't compare apples to oranges nor can you compare bears to people without some qualifiers. Pepper spray has a pretty good record on both bears and people the first time or two they get sprayed. But a mean man who's been sprayed before can learn to fight through it, especially if he's numbed up on booze and/or drugs. I have some direct experience in that line of research. An OC-naïve bear will usually respond as desired the first time you spray him, if you hit him right, and that should be the end of it... but if he comes back again you're unlikely to stop him with spray. You took the words right out of my mouth. A mean human and a mean animal are a whole different can of worms. A human has far worse olfactory senses, and can think logically through what is happening. An animal is totally different. Most of the time OC has been wildly ineffective on people for me, personally. Angry animals on the other hand, like a sprinting pitbul or GSD, it works like a charm 99% of the time (there is always that 1%er). I have no experience with bears. I'm just adding to what DocRocket said, animals and people are two different...animals. Oheremicus, I'm also not sure what you mean about, "the much more powerful MACE products". I'd take OC any day of the week over a CN/ CS tear gas like MACE for use against an animal. There is a reason you don't see CN/CS being offered as bear spray. It works on the nervous system as opposed to OC, which works on the mucus membranes. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't trust a skin irritant against an animal wearing a tough hide or a thick fur coat.
Last edited by Jedi5150; 07/01/16.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,860
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,860 |
.40 has been proven to have better intermediate barrier penetration than 9mm or .45 so its safe to assume it would out penetrate the other two on wild animals (if using identical bullets in all three calibers).
With comparable loads the 9mm far outperforms the .40...
********
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,860
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,860 |
And, fwiw I killed several bears with a 9mm while on duty, only one of which was in a very bad mood. Maybe 12 feet and two to the head worked well. I have seen poor shooting account for more wounded bears than anything....Griz is another story. Hard cast bullets are the choice, but if you miss or are too slow it doesn't matter what you use...
********
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,215
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,215 |
I saw Iraqis shot 5-6 times with FMJ 9mms before they were no longer a threat...this is an apples to Buick comparison, but it left me with zero confidence in the 9mm.
Better bullets and non-opium fueled bears changes the equation, but I still have zero confidence in the gangsta` 9.
Just my opinion on the matter.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,327
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,327 |
I saw Iraqis shot 5-6 times with FMJ 9mms Why would you shoot something with FMJ's if you were intending to kill it? I wouldn't have any problem showing a black bear 15 properly loaded 9mm's as fast as could pull the trigger at close range. Just my opinion on the matter.
"You cannot invade mainland America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass" ~Admiral Yamamoto~
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. ~Thomas Jefferson~
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,479
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,479 |
I saw Iraqis shot 5-6 times with FMJ 9mms before they were no longer a threat...this is an apples to Buick comparison, but it left me with zero confidence in the 9mm.
Better bullets and non-opium fueled bears changes the equation, but I still have zero confidence in the gangsta` 9.
Just my opinion on the matter. How many Iraquis did you see shot with 45s?
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
|
|
|
|
125 members (450yukon, 260Remguy, 300_savage, 2ndwind, 673, 14 invisible),
1,688
guests, and
988
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,191,756
Posts18,476,379
Members73,942
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|