Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters why reduced/downloaded rifle cartridges frown upon?

When my late wife started shooting her .308 deer rifle we shot up several hundred of the Sierra Round nose 110 gr. M1 carbine bullets.
These are very mild to shoot and are quite a deterrent to rabbits in the garden.
Eventually we moved up to the 125 gr spitzer.

This discussion is confusing. I picked up a 650 grain .50 cal mould awhile back, and a .30 cal cough. What's a fella 'sposed to do, hey?

Boom! Or pop. Whatever works.

Brother, did you ever nail it there! The utter contempt some people here show for those who don't view things the same as they do is beyond belief. I can imagine that living or working with one of those jokers would be pure Hell.

I don't know a heck of a lot, but I'm the world's leading expert on what I like.😜

Bingo!

The most disturbing attribute of some people is their steadfast refusal to consider other options. A sure indicator of regressive evolution if I ever saw one.

It's harder to get unwrapped from the crap that get wrapped in it. Guns are funny things.

Once I find something that works for me, I generally stop there and enjoy what I've got. What's that an indicator of?

Go,easy on me , Doc.😉

Common sense? Fellas generally won't kick their own dog, and will fight to defend whatever "choice" they made. Bullets, rifles, scopes, whatever. I will say hand-loading was nothing but waste of time and money.

For me....

No, that can't be it. Gotta be a better explanation!

[quote]The way I see it, this is a hobby. Do whatever floats your boat, and if the other fellow doesn't like it, that's his problem. /quote] Jim In Idaho

Best comment in the whole thread to me.

I have found over the years that I enjoy hunting and shooting certain rifles because of the rifle, not necessarily the cartridge it is chambered for. If I can reduce the load and make the rifle more suitable for the game I'm after or circumstances I'm hunting under, I don't hesitate to do it. A 30/06 loaded like a 30/30 might suit a particular location I'm hunting and make my hunting trip more enjoyable because I'm using the rifle I want to carry.

While I have a reputation for goofing around with reduced loads, I have received quite a lot of flack for it over the years.... but then again, have gotten a lot of requests for my work on it.. often from people who weren't even members on the two forums I was a member of, but joined it just to PM me asking questions about my results.

I enjoy playing at the reload bench is what got me started on it actually... I am a 'what if' kind of guy also. Some think I tend to overthink stuff, but I gather that is they applying the what's good for them, should be good enough for me and everyone else...

Like George Carlin said, "why do we think everyone driving slower than we are, is an idiot and everyone driving faster than we are, is a maniac".. guess too many people think their way is the International Gold Standard.

Working a lot with kids, I've found that reduced loads have been very handy.... its hard to imagine a bigger smile on a kid, that watching his face, after they pull the trigger on a load, that they loaded themselves at my load bench.. with supervision of course.

I've also noticed every year at our range, plenty of people sighting in their rifles, the few nights before deer season opens. Its heavily filled with folks who bought a new bigger caliber rifle, or a new scope. They try sighting in at 100 yds, and wonder why it takes so much ammo to zero a scope. I do like the way they leave all that brass behind tho.

Average blacktail around here is 100 to 110 pounds. and shot at 75 yds or less. Often wondered why someone needs a 500 yd load, to kill a 100 pound black tail at 75 yds or so... especially if you are a handloader.

I hunt what I call 30/30 ranges, and load accordingly, while still using lighter calibers and bullets. A lot of bubba experimenting has shown me that a lot of "non premium" bullets work more than just fine, while recoiling much less than even a 30/30.

Those loads work even fine on larger deer. I've posted pics of one of the larger blacktails I have taken... it weighed 210 lbs on the hoof, a well fed suburban buck...

That one was shot with a 7 x 57, using a 115 grain HP Speer.. bullet placed right thru the heart. Recoil was minimal... 28 grains of SR 4759 IIRC.

And then there is component costs, wear and tear on your equipment....

Some seem to think the faster you burn up a barrel, and the more you spend on components somehow equate to the macho factor... I'm tougher because I burn up my barrel quicker, and spend more on components than you do, which makes you a sissyboy.....If you think that way, knock yourself out.

Got a 243 Rem ADL sitting right here.....got a new box of 750 count Speer 70 grain TNT bullets delivered while out of town.... I don't exactly know what people think the barrel count is to burn out a 243 barrel... but this barrel has over 5,000 rounds thru it.. still as accurate as the day I brought it home from Walmart.

Loaded up 20 rounds last night, to take a trip to the range today... 30 grains of IMR 4198, ( yielding 230 rounds out of that pound of powder)... more than enough zing to easily practice skills out to 200 to 250 yards.

Brass was a gift from Blue ( Rio7 from down at the Quemado Event, how brought a batch of us, brass from his home range, shot by clients ).....Those 20 pieces of brass will easily get 40 to 50 reloads out of them using this load, and by neck sizing, using a body die to bump the shoulder back when needed and annealing every 4th reload.

So that stretches out the shooting budget on components, and also barrel life on the rifle.... as in the past, that will get me labeled as "Cheap" by quite a few.. but then I don't live by others "Macho Factor", and to whatever degree it might be running at for today.

Macho or not, I don't know anyone who doesn't enjoy shooting these loads...., and they will easily take a deer any day of the week.... aids in shot placement.. and even the macho crowd will admit, shot placement trumps everything else....

Heck I am sure many, will criticize a load in a 243 of a 55 grain Ballistic tip, running at 2400 to 2500 fps at the Muzzle for deer hunting.....but you'd be surprised how that bullet will perform at those speeds, and especially with shot placement.. which is fairly easy when what is fueling it is 25 grains of 4198....Blacktails have fallen to kids 10 years old around here with that bullet and a load of 20 grains of 4198.....

Hardly a load for the macho crowd.... yet a 10 yr old usually doesn't care.. and as Travis said above, Dead is Dead... and these aren't a tracking job end result....

Final thoughts.....

if one wants to take about any spitzer bullet, look in any reload manual's trajectory charts....

If one zeros the scope at 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, and that bullet has an MV of 2250 fps at the muzzle ( 30/30 speeds).... you'll note that it is pretty much dead on at 200 yds ( give or take)....and is 3.5 inches low at about 230 to 240 yds.

now lets analyze an antelope... regardless of size, its skeletal structure when measured from backbone/spine to its breast bone/ sternum is going to be 14 inches....about 17 inches or so if it is a whitetail or mule deer...

So lets cut that in half.... giving us a window of opportunity of 7 inches....

put your cross hairs on fur at close by or out to 230-240 yds, you won't have to compensate at all for distance...

since 90 % of all game is taken at 100 yds or under... and 95% taken at 200 yds or less... 2250 fps at the muzzle with ANY spitzer bullet is going to hit home as long as the shooter can hold steady... ( can't help ya with the hold steady part ).... the bullet placement will be there....

then check what your MV will be at that distance... still more than enough for the average plain old bullet to open up and do its job.... .even moreso, with those so called 'fragile' varmint bullets... slow them down, surprisingly they will act like regular bullets as opposed to varmint bullets...


years ago, a local handicapped 8 yr old, was going to hunt with his grandpa, right off the family porch... gramps had an older than dirt 30/30....deer wondered thru the yard all the time....well a 110 grain Hornady RN/SP, fueled by 10 grains of Unique, dropped that deer for that young man, at just under 100 yds...He was thrilled, grandpa was thrilled, grandma was thrilled, as was mom and dad....

The macho factor involved was ZERO, but the smiles on that youngster's face, I was told, would have lit up the night.

If a reduced load would work for a handicapped 8 yr old in a wheel chair, even if off of grandpa's porch, I wouldn't be surprised if it would work for the most macho of guys with their 7 Rem Mag, lift kit on the pick up, 35 to 38 inch Mudders.. and camo everything.. ya know, all the important stuff one needs to hunt deer macho style.

Oh and that load also allowed grandpa, who was fairly handicapped due to old age, wack a deer for himself later in the week.....

They may not be for everyone, but reduced loads certainly have a place and certainly do work just fine for the job intended in MOST situations applied.... when it comes to deer or smaller....

even thoughtful loads that are reduced ( right bullet etc) have been known to take Elk down also...like a 650 lb 11 year old cow elk, taken at Gardner Montana by a son of a buddy, when he was 12....30/06, 165 grain ballistic tip, 30 grains of 4198, at 175 yds.. 2250 fps MV...

worked for that young man just fine.. easy shot placement...

he still shoots that load when deer hunting, according to his dad....out of the same 30/06 I got for him back then...

except he is now a 2 tour Iraq war vet, 225 lbs and a Montana State Trooper... Lack of "macho" never bothers him evidently either...

now let the flaming begin...

Seafire:

Great posts. Coming from a rookie reloader, I have a question: how do you know both how low a load can be reduced and which powder to use?

Thanks again. My daughter wants to shoot "daddy's rifle" but I don't want her to do it with daddy's loads.

RM

Lyman's cast bullet manual gives a lot of reduced load info you won't find anywhere else.

I dont see it as macho, its efficient. If I want to sling a 55gr bullet at reduced speeds, there are calibers that do that.

Yes, barrels burn..they are a consumable, just like powder, brass, and primers. My current snot slinging 243 Ackley will be lucky to see 1500rds before the barrel is toast...and I knew that going into it. Its all part of the game.

Very good advice!

Fairly easy Mike.

AS Gonnahh mentioned, Cast Bullet manuals are a great source...

Another is the old IMR "Brown Sheet" if you can find one...

That is a pamphlet where they took the major calibers used by the public, and then picked several bullet weights and then tested it with each of the powders they made.. from SR 4759 up to 4831 or 7828.

4198 ( either one), RL 7, and 5744 are great powders to use for that type of service....

so are 2400 which is hard to find, and 4759 which sadly was eliminated and no longer produced

4227 is also a good choice, similar to 2400, but I've had better consistency with the ones I mentioned first...

IMR 4895 is a great powder for that also... Hodgdon lists H 4895 for reduced loads, however the info they give out was not developed by them but by ADI whom they buy the powders from...

I have two issues with H 4895 for that duty..
1. It has a loud retort which can intimidate some younger and feminine shooters.
2 it is inconsistent, one load can be a tack driver and then change it up or down a 1/10 of a grain and its all over the place.
One can use IMR 4895, using H 4895s reduced load data, and it is pretty consistent across the board along with not showing up with that loud boom that might intimidate younger shooter, of which I work with a lot.

And as far as Lilly's Dad comments, about his 243 AI.. I'm not taking issue of faulting them here, he and I just make different choices.

He considers 1500 rounds thru a barrel is acceptable. That's cool for him. My ADL Rem in 243 here, has 3 times that number of rounds down the barrel, and then some and its accuracy is still going strong.. when it goes south, I'll set the barrel back, rechamber and it'll still last a long time.

Yet shooting it at usually 250 yds or under, bullets have never failed to reach the target I'm aiming at. Last deer it took was at 50 yds or so.... with an 87 grain SP Hornady... didn't need a lot of high velocity for that.. again I hunt at 30/30 ranges, so I load for that distance.

I've got 223s, 22.250s, 260s right up thru 444 Marlins to use.. but a 2400 fps 243 works just fine at those distances...

Neither one of us are right or wrong.. we both load to what we think fits our needs.. which shows the versatility of the cartridge.. any one of them, and also shows both are still lethal within the parameters we are using them in...

Barrel life, I look at the same way I do tires....

I could get high performance ones for my car, that last 20K, but really grip the road in fast high speed turns etc...

I don't drive my vehicles that way.. so I buy something that fits my driving style, and will safely last me 60,000 plus miles...

its all about choices and needs, and desires...

no one is really wrong or more right than the other.

Seafire,

Thank you for that wealth of information. As a new hand loader myself, I was unaware that H4895 gave a load report when using reduce loads. Reduced loads was the reason I look to purchase H4895.

I have a lot of Uniqe on hand but limited 2400 and titegroup. Did find a small bottle of Trailboss.

I have the Lyman's cast bullet book, but don't think they list jacketed bullets?

You won't get in trouble substituting jacketed for cast in Lyman's light loads. Just don't substitute jacketed for cast in super light loads, such as 150 grain bullet over 6 grains Bullseye, .30-40 Krag. You'll likely stick a bullet in the bore. Ask me how I know...

For those who don't know - remember to work down with light loads like this, not up like you would with normal high pressure loads.

That's fairly common knowledge among those loading for subsonic/suppressed applications, but may not be immediately obvious to everyone else.