Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Bolt action carbines for social work....??

One really needs to define "social"...

Are we talking "social" breakdown, outback survival situation or a 1/1 conflict, like a robbery or carjacking?

I agree with Mackay that there is nothing like a semi-auto when it comes to self-defense, but when he talks about "units" I would imagine he is talking about LE, military or contractors. For individuals facing several antagonists at greater than pistol range a bolt gun can be viable.

When I travel I take a scout type rifle with me only because there are a few places I regularly go, like NY, Mass. and Conn., that possession of a black-rifle is problematic. A scout type rifle looks more like a target or hunting rifle so it draws less attention.

Calibers...to me there are only three... .223, .308 and 7.62x39... Unless one has some 62 grain SS109 type penetrator ammo good luck even getting trough a windshield with enough bullet left to get the job done. There is a NH State F&G officer who took a .223/55 grain round right square in the windshield that then hit his badge and broke up... There are way too many .223 failures for me to be comfortable.

7.62x39...great round invented for one thing...killing people. Very accurate way past 400 yards and mild recoil. Excellent hard cover penetration.

.308...king of the hill... Recoil is manageable, fantastically accurate and tons of bullet choices...

I like a scout type rifle with a 2-7 Burris IER scope with the ballistic drop reticle. In .308 it is good to 600+ yards... In 7.62x39 out to 400+. Both are very fast up close also...

A pistol caliber levergun is also hard to beat. XS makes a scout mount and once used to it one can run very fast...

Bob

If you cut the link beyond the first big number, it'll light up and work with one click.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11462608

DF

For protection against people, the standard AR is going to be extremely hard to beat. In the distances you might be likely to be engaged/engage someone, their light recoil, quick handling characteristics, and large on board capacity all are advantageous to the end user.

There is very good reason why so many pros who can choose to use practically anything, choose a simple M4 type weapon platform.

If I am dealing with riots, urban/suburban areas, home defense, getting from point AtoB, and/or any other unknown/unforeseen task that involves being mobile, the generalist M4/Recce type rifle is going to be the preferred long gun.

RJM brings up a very valid point though, especially for those living in or near Socialist enclaves, where ownership of an AR is either forbidden or severely restricted, then perhaps something like the polymer stocked ruger scout rifle makes some sense. I don't know of too many places that forbid scout rifles (yet).

I am very much a .308 bolt gun fan but when the action gets fast, a bolt action is poor runner up to a semi auto.

A single .223 soft point/hollow point, whatever, will make the recipient rethink his course of action if he has the ability to do so.

As far as barriers go, there is no contest, the better .308 rounds totally dominate. Given that you are using similar projectiles, it is purely a horsepower issue. That said, it really is rarely an issue from what I have seen in reality.

Being deliberate in your actions, making your first shot your best shot, and THINKING your way through a problem is usually what takes care of business.

This.


Okie John

Very good stuff by all, first and foremost was thinking protection at closer ranges. Never meant to infer a bolt had advantages, but as some mentioned there are or may be situations where one is not allowed or frowned upon. If legal, nothing beyond that probably matters.

I thought of the penetration issue when seeing fmj 9mm fail to penetrate heavy gauge sheet metal. Not that I expected it to, but it barely made a dent.....while out plinking. It was quite thick and some sort of steel I am sure.

Very good info by all, appreciate the replies and info. The way things have been heating up, one never knows if or when they might need some insurance.......

Bob in your scout, do you run typical 168 OT? As I get older, the void of me never having owned a 308 seems to grow....I never was a bigger is better and seem to be much more interested in a 308 than the venerable older brother.

Seems like a good handgun, scattergun, M4, and 308 carbine all have merit no doubt. Always happy to hear of recommendations and feedback by owners on those they enjoy and the ammo they run thru them/carry.

Glocks are my preferred for duty/defense. Pick a caliber you wish to shoot. I use a 40 S&W and am looking hard at a 45 acp for accuracy and different recoil impulse but really like the 40 S&W. Choose solid ammunition from Golden Saber, Gold Dot, Federal HST, ect.

Shotgun-Remington 870 or Benelli would be my choices. 12 gauge is the standard but a 20 gauge would work fine also. Love the Federal Flite Control Wad with 00 Buck or any brand thats reasonably accurate with slugs. I used Remington slugs and shot out to 75 yards with a bead sight and managed to hit a man size silhouette without issue.

M4-I use Stag with anything from 55-62 grain ammunition. I also like the bonded bullets for defense use.

AK/SKS variants are another option. My buddy who is a combat vet gave up on the 5.56 and went with a AK variant after being shot at by the caliber. He was, personally way more impressed with it then the 5.56.

308 Carbine would be LMT MWSE or Armalite for that caliber.

I'm a big fan of the bolt action rifle and of the scout rifle idea. But, frankly, the scout rifle was designed as an all around rifle, equally useful by a lone man either hunting or dealing with human threats. It's at it's best when used in the wide open spaces.
Defending one's home, either inside or outside of it, or dealing with bad guys at close range, it not it's strong suit.
My choice for social work would be the Springfield Armory M1A Socom 16. It's a .308, so it can deal with barriers, etc. It can take a wide variety of sights. They are remarkably controlable and very accurate. What surprised me was how soft the recoil is and how really good the triggers are. You might try one and see for yourself. E

Good stuff folks, thanks for the input.

If you can't manage to make a bolt action rifle work out for you in a bad situation the problem likely ain't the bolt action rifle.

A suppressor is a valuable tool. If you can own one in your state, I highly recommend you purchasing one if you haven't already.. Avoid creating sound, shadow, shine, and silhouette in any situation, social or not if forced into a situation.

A suppressed .22lr at 50 yards produces louder sound upon target impact, and a suppressed 5.56/.223 and .308 sounds similar to a .22lr HV unsuppressed.

As a homestead protection rifle, I personally wouldn't steer away from an AR or similar semi automatic carbine chambered in a center fire rifle cartridge.

With all said, I carry a .223 bolt under my trucks back seat with a few spare loaded mags and enough SP ammo to remove me from any threat. Keeps me legal traveling in most states if I need to hit the road.

YMMV.

65BR...

In the .308 Scouts I use handloaded 165 Hornady SST, 165 Hornady BTSP or 168 Sierra Match King bullets with 46 grains of Winchester 748. Gets 2750+- fps from a 20" barrel. For factory it is PRVI 168 Match or Federal 168 GM Match. I did end up with a bunch of Federal 147 grain ball and SP ammo from a friend that was moving that will sometimes get used.

You are correct in your "basic battery"...

Handgun of choice..
Pump or semi-auto shotgun of choice..
M4...
.308 bolt gun...


For self-defense you would have about all the bases covered...



As to .223 ammo...after talking with several friends who served in the sandbox I now use only one round...75 grain HPs... Bought a bunch of PRVI Match before the crunch. Extremely accurate and has enough weight to get into cars where 55-62 fail, My friends said that on shots over 200 yards the difference in putting people on the ground vs. 62s is amazing..


Bob

Not sure where or what your social work might be. I would look at the U.S. MIlitary standards and go from there. As mentioned, they still do more field testing than the average forum member has in these work assignments. Get you a 9mm pistol, a proper shotgun, and a M4' (may want to add a m203 grenade launcher) and you will be set. Next thing you will need is to be mentally prepared as you may find this is not as easy as it sounds. As for the bolt, still used for sniper work. That would move it down your list I would think.

That 203 comment is funny

Good info gang- thanks, DV, what DBM bolt are you running?

For defensive, home protection hands down a shotgun is my choice. If I were put on the offensive I would go with an AR.

I see no place in the modern world for a bolt action other than for recreational use.

g

I'm running a Howa Mini Action LWT model w/Vortex Diamonback 3-9 scope. Whitakers is selling those rifles bellow dealer/distributor (Jerrys, RSR, Davidsons, etc) cost at $329..

While I agree that an AR-15 platform is an ideal fit for original poster concerns, my concern is that future legislature is going to make this choice an unfavorable one. Compound it with the sheeple who elected these politicians to keep them "safe" who have a negative image of the AR due the media/news and PR has caused me to hold off on purchasing an AR even though the current state I live is AR friendly.

Around 1970, TXDPS bought a few sniper rifles deemed to be longer range and more accurate than the standard issue .30-30. The powers that be bought Remington 700 ADLs in .243. When I was promoted to captain in 1980, I inherited one of those needing a scope. I installed a Weaver MicroTrac 4X. After sight in, I expected that ADL to produce dime size groups @ 100, which it routinely did with 100 grain factory ammo. The agency later went to some custom built .308s, but I kept the .243. The new expensive rifles were likely better at long range, but were no more accurate than mine.

I don't think a 20" barrel would drop a lot of velocity.

Best, Jack

Have to look at my records but I believe the Federal and PRVI 168 Match ammo I have shot has run 2560+- from a 20" barrel...my handloads with the same bullet are 2730+-...

Much prefer a 20" tube over the 24-26" ones that are out on most long range .308s..especially if one is using a suppressor. I have six .308s and except for the 24" TC Encore all the bolt guns run 16.5-20". Looking for an AR10 with a 20" barrel...had a DPMS Panther 18.5" that was a great shooter but sold it to a friend...

Bob

Im going with what Mackay says. I always saw the 'social' bolt action to be something to keep the guys with semi-autos at bay with...hopefully from hundreds of yards.