Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Metallurgy, Ruger Investment Casting, Action Strength?

Robert_White: I worked for a time at the same foundry that my father (and Clint Eastwood!) worked at, Pacific Car & Foundry (Renton, Washington).
They made train cars, frames, axles, trucks for the wheels and axles and train wheels!
The trick to castings which I had something to do with, is many of the parts I dealt with were cast in molds then got heat treated in ovens for various amounts of time and then quenched in certain oil baths and some treated again and quenched again.
IF... you think cast iron pieces are not strong go take a bite out of a railroad car wheel!
Cast iron CAN be made into incredibly hard/strong items.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

In a book by De Haas and Van Zwoll** a Remington engineer named Mike Keeney states that the Rem 700 receiver starts out as bar stock. Furthermore he states that seamless tubing in 4140 is expensive enough that it is actually cheaper for Remington to start with bar stock and do their own machining.



**Bolt Action Rifles, expanded 4th edition, page 420, ©2003

Cast iron isn't really the subject. Ruger's actions are investment cast steel, either 4140 or a 400 series stainless.

I seriously doubt that Ruger would phase out their quality line of rifles, the incredibly durable M77 without replacing it with something of equal or better performance (which the American is certainly not). I really don't think they would want to turn over such a signifcant market share to some other company(s). So it wouldn't be a huge surprise if they come out with a basic, rugged, CNC machined "M77" at some point with certain critical part perhaps still investment cast. (I don't think anyone else is making their own bolts which have the same reliability or at this price point.)

But I really have no issue with their "crudeness". They are excellent hunting rifles. LOts of stuff that sees the benches of the local range will never taste much if any blood.

Much less when you factor in the cost of replacing the 700 bolt or having the handle bolted down so it won't come off in your hand and replacing the trigger so it doesn't go off at odd moments of its own choosing.

If I remember correctly, Jack O'Connor wrote an article about the Ruger 77 when it first came out and said that during a stress test, it took 180,000 psi to start to shear the bolt lugs and even at that they were not completely sheared. Not 100% certain on that figure but that seems pretty strong to me.

John

I have never had a 700 bolt handle come off. And not from lack of shooting. That said the old model 70, 1 piece forged bolt is the best mouse trap.
As for the trigger. I run Jewell triggers on both my model 70's and model 70's for the most part. I do have a Neil Jones and an Eddie Fosnaugh tuned 700 factory triggers and they have always worked great.

So which of Rugers semis use cast barrels??? All of them?




Btw, thanks for the heads up on that book Greg, and to Ed for the link. Got one coming to learn/peruse.

Silver brazing is very strong, if done correctly, and can't be disassembled without some serious abuse well above and beyond hard use. The problem is that some of them don't get assembled correctly. Can you tell by looking? I can't, so I don't trust them as much as some others.

All my current bolt guns: two Hawkeyes, two FNs, and a Vanguard S2, have one-piece bolts; the Rugers cast, the others forged. One less thing to go wrong. I used to belong to a hunt club in VA with 30 members. Two had Remmy bolt handles pop on them.

The book by R.L. Wilson is full of interesting details about Ruger and Ruger guns.

It tells about tests done on their investment cast bolts, comparing them to Mauser, Model 70 and 700 bolts, the Ruger investment cast lugs outlasting all of them. (p.105)

The Ruger Old Army got its design testing accomplished by loading the cylinders full of Bullseye...without failure. (p. 126)

The P85 was tested with military high-pressure M882 ammo while the bore was completely blocked with a steel rod. Some parts were ruined: (extractor...) but the barrel was undamaged. (p 207)

That's a few, there are more I'm quite sure but I don't recall specifics offhand nor do I care to look for them further. It's a book worth having if Ruger guns hold any appeal.

Having read this thread two things come to mind.

First is that Greg knows his subject and is a good read when he is on it.

The second is that tex n cal's failue to turn TUNGSTEN wire into a spring is an impressive endeavour regardless of success or not.

The format is a little hard to follow but there is some good information in this article to answer your question.

After heat treating according to these guys 410 stainless can have a yield strength of 140,000 PSI.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120219095722/http://www.precisionmetalsmiths.com/PMIalloyEngineeringGuide.pdf

Excellent, excellent thread. I'll be ordering the book Greg linked to when I get back from deer hunting. Bravo!

A brief comment on 700 bolt handles. Had one come off during safety testing after lightening trigger pull. Yes, I give it a hard test including a workover with my rubber hammer simulating a hard fall with the bolt handle landing on a rock. On examination the braze didn't fuse with the bolt, I'd guess around 20% fused properly. Could be not enough heat though I'd guess contamination. No industrial process is perfect. Properly done you'd have trouble getting one off with a big steel hammer.

Anyway, had the owner call Remington who sent a prepaid box along with profuse apologies and repaired it quickly.

My impression of a similar process (as with every other dealing I've had with Remington) left me rather soured. It went like this:

-Called the warranty/service number to see where I should ship it.

-Was told to send it to a "local" service center (which meant a 500 mile plane ride to Fairbanks (My cost: $25)

-Service center received my rifle and, after enough time to re-braze it many times over, I was informed that it had to be sent to the factory. "Please send money to cover shipping."

- Me: "Uh, I already paid to ship a warranty problem to the "Service Center" the factory wanted it shipped to!"

- They: "Well, if you want the rifle to be repaired you'll have to pay shipping."

- Me: "Alright, well have them ship it back to me then so I don't have to pay shipping a third time."

- They: "They can't do that. It has to be returned to us. They can only ship to the original shipper that sent it to them."

- Me: "Fantastic. Screwed three times is perfect!" (When the factory should have done it correctly to begin with.)

Remington has a great investment cast bolt handle. It's how they attach the damned thing that needs to be corrected. I'll just stick with the fully cast bolts which my Rugers have on them when I need rifles I can really depend upon.

That mirrors my experience.

Called Remington after the first bolt handle fell off and they said send it to a local service center, which happened to be in Western Oregon. I called the service center, they said to send it to them 2nd day air for about $50 at the time where they would evaluate it and then send me a quote for repairs. I told them the bolt handle came off. "Oh, okay, that's a $100 repair".

So I took it to a local smith who had it back to me in a bit over a week for something like $35 total.


When the second one fell off I didn't even call Remington, just took it straight to that same smith.

I love a good apology, and Remington is getting good at it by now, but my time is valuable...as is all of our time...

I wouldn't waste any of my time and money sending anything back to Remington for anything.

Why waste time letting the same monkeys who couldn't manage to do a very simple job right the first time take another whack at the banana tree?

I would just have it tigged for $50 if I wanted to keep the rifle.

On the subject of bolts, I recently bought a PT&G one-piece bolt for an upcoming build. Any thoughts on the metallurgy & manufacturing processes they use on those?

Thanks

That little tungsten spring sure did puzzle the heck out of me. Annealed wire, dead soft, 99.99% pure. We could wind it, but as soon as you cut it, it would split, like the example above. Maybe someday someone will figure it out.

The stuff that really is interesting is a tantalum/tungsten alloy. It's used for extreme corrosion service - like boiling chlorine, for example - where even titanium does not survive. Decent strength, extreme corrosion resistance, maybe some high temp properties. Frightfully expensive, too