Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Lapua Naturalis Bullets - Loads and Performance on Game

Hello everyone,

I am starting this topic to discuss Lapua Naturalis bullets. These are lead-free bullets that seem to be popular in Scandinavian countries but are not aswell-known here. I have experimented with these bullets in my big Lazzeroni 8.59mm Titan rifle and have developed a very accurate load.

I was wondering if anyone else has experience with these bullets?

Thanks,
-Omid


Lazzeroni L2000 Rifle


Lapua Naturalis bullets (0.338)



Lazzeroni 8.59 Titan (0.338) cartridge next to a 270 round and a 243 (red dummy)



Loaded cartridges



Sample 100 yard group

Looks like nobody is interested yet.. Here is the information page on Lapua website:


Lapua Naturalis

I'm interested, I just have not worked with them yet.

I am still developing loads with Lapua brass & 155 Scenars in my 308's. And, I did not want to skew your thread by talking about Scenars.

So, following with interest.

Have considered them for my Sweede. But I am too tight to pay the $$$on an unknown. Will be following this thread.

Thank you for your support. Glad to see that others are interested in these bullets

I have so far loaded these only in .338 caliber: 338 Winchester Magnum and 8.59 Titan (almost like a 338 Lapua). It worked excellent in the Lazzeroni 8.59 rifle and I got two groups about 0.6 inches each. So I will continue using these bullets for this rifle.

For 338 WM, I shot 6 rounds and they hit below the paper target (the loads are mild, about 2400 f/s). The problem is these 231 grain bullets produce heavy recoil in my light .338 WM rifle so they are my 2nd choice. For this rifle, my first choice are 130 gr Lutz Moller bullets.


I have ordered Lapua Naturalis bullets in 7mm and 0.30 caliber too. I will load them soon and will share the results.

I'm watching with interest too. The only one I can try right now is the 140 gr 6.5mm for my 264 Win Mag. We do also have a 260 Rem and 6.5x55 in the house but really would like to see what the 264 does. I wish they also made a 277 and 358 version, maybe one day.

Sorry.... but everytime I see the name of that bullet in print I think I'm staring at a condom machine in a greasy grimy bathroom somewhere!

What is the BC on those? Couldn't they make them less blunt?

interested, but haven't had an opportunity in 9.3.

i think that i, like many others, are looking for reasonable value - even with lead free bullets

Omid,
Now that you have brought this up I began looking in to them. I will order some 156's for testing in my 280's.

Hello everyone,

I have been traveling in the past few days so I did not have a chance to do any reloading but I will do a first set of loads soon. I am very glad hearing that other members are interested in these bullets too.

As we move forward, I will load these in 7mm Mag, 7X64 Breneke, 300 Win Mag and 300 Weatherby using the following process:

1- Assume that Norma MRP is 'close to' VihtaVuori N-165.

2- Figure out approximate charge of Norma MRP from loads listed in Lapua Naturalis Official Loads.

3- Compare load suggested from Step 2 to loads listed in latest Norma reloading handbook to make sure they are safe and within range.

4- Full-length resize some fired brass cases (12 to 18 rounds) for each caliber. (the loads are intended for hunting)

5- load 3 cartridges with A grains of powder, then another 3 with A+1 grain, another three with A+2 grain, etc. Mark the cartridges with a marker pen indicating their charge.

6- Then go to range and test fire the loads in groups of three. After two sets of three shots, put the rifle aside and test loads for a different caliber. This way, the rifles get a chance to cool down between shots.

Once a good load is found for a specific caliber, load the same charge in new brass (5 rounds) and test again. If all is well, load 20-50 rounds and keep for hunting/shooting.

-Omid

These look like the new pointier ones. The old ones were even worst. These are from my .264 bullet test.

Thank you for posting the test pictures! Very interesting! It seems that these bullets perform very well upon impact. As another member noted, these are not designed to have a particularly high ballistic coefficient. They are designed with focus on performance on game. The relatively large frontal area (the part covered by green plastic) ensures reliable expansion.

Here is a list of the new generation of Naturalis bullets:

Hello again,

I have a questions related to reloading:

Q) I plan to reload my test rounds using previously fired brass (full-length resized). Then, once I find the right load, I want to load new brass (which can be from a different manufacturer). Is there a problem with this method? Can a good accurate load developed using re-used brass turn out not good when loaded in a new brass?

Here is a test round (empty) I made for 300 WM using new Nosler brass. This was to test C.O.L. I figured I can seat the bullet a bit longer than standard in my Sauer 202 (C.O.L. = 3.38 inches). The planned test charge is 72 grain to 76 grains of Norma MRP.

Looks like I am alone in this topic again! Could someone please answer my question above? Thanks!

Omid,

There is a potential for having over pressure loads when working up loads with 1x brass, then loading the same load in new brass, particularly when changing brands of brass. New lots of brass by the same manufacturer can vary in thickness and brass by different manufacturers may vary a lot in thickness. Hot loads worked up w/ 1x fired brass may result in a dangerous pressure load when using new brass from a different manufacturer.

I generally buy a lot of brass, work up loads with it new, use until time to discard brass and then repeat w/ a new lot. Established loads can easily be checked with a quick powder spread work-up and a chronograph to ensure they are safe with the new brass. In my opinion it's worth checking to ensure you won't have a problem.


HTH

David

Hi David,

Thank you for your response. I don't generally use maximum loads but I will remember your point regarding case capacity.:)

my understanding is that a particular load in different brands of brass, and even different lots of the same brand, can result in variations in pressure. i would think this is not as critical an issue if you're not up to max pressure loads.
it seems the conventional wisdom is to drop back a bit and "work up" again (using a chronograph) with the new brass.

Are you talking new brass as in you bought a bunch and are keeping some back for hunting loads, or new as in your are going to buy more. The same lot, unfired brass could raise pressure. It would not be measurable.

Different lots will probably change pressures. The thing is, how much? This gets into all the possible variables, and the reason to stay back from the red line on pressure.

Thank you for the comments. I did a new series of loads and decided to use new brass. I don't think there should be any excessive pressure issue if the load is below maximum and the case has some room (whether brass is new or fired/resized before). I just want my load to have sufficient velocity and best accuracy for hunting.

Here are the load data (yet to be fired and tested):

7mm Remington Magnum: 60 - 62 grain Norma MRP, Lapua Naturalis 155 grain bullet

300 Winchster Magnum: 72 -76 grain Norma MRP, Lapua Naturalis 170 grain bullet

300 Weatherby Magnum: 82-86 grain Norma MRP, Lapua Naturalis 170 grain bullet


And here are some pictures:

Those look good I'll be watching with interest how your latest loads do.

Have seen about a dozen "bang flop" kills on cow moose, boar and fallow deer from members of my hunting team when I lived in Sweden. Maybe half dozen more that went up to 50 meters after the shot. Most all the shots were under 100 meters and were fired from .308 Win or .30-06 rifles.

Small sample at close range but they performed well in that caliber. The bc leave a lot to be desired IIRC compared to many other bullets. The wound channels were sufficient without excessive damage or lead bits floating around.

They seem to work quite well for driven hunting but I could think of a lot better projectiles to use (even lead free projectiles) if one planned on shooting past MPBR.

When loading the 7mm Magnum cartridges, I noticed that the cases get only 80% or so full so I researched the reloading manuals to see if there is an issue. The Norma reloading manual has several loads with 150 grain bullets which have a few more grains of MRP. It also shows loads which are in the same range as my loads so I think I am good and probably on the mild side for 7mm Remington Magnum.

For the sake of exploration, I also loaded 12 rounds of 7mm Magnum with Norma 217 powder which is slower than MRP. This powder seems to be more suitable as it fills the case nicely till the neck. Do, I now have this additional load to test too:

7mm Remington Magnum: 69 - 72 grain Norma 217, Lapua Naturalis 155 grain bullet.

The 7mm Mag is actually an over-bore cartridge so Norma 217 may end up being the better powder for it. We'll see..

PS. Happy Thanksgiving!

Range results:

Load Series I (7mm Magnum, Lapua Naturalis, Norma MRP): This series was perhaps too mild. Average velocity about 2720 f/s for 60 grain charge to 2750 f/s for 62 grain charge. The 62 grain charge produced an outstanding group (about 0.5 inches) at 100 yards.

Load Series II (7mm Magnum, Lapua Naturalis, Norma 217): This load was perhaps too hot. My starting load with 69 grain of powder resulted in average velocity about 2930 f/s. Since this is already close to top speed I was expecting, I did not fire the rest of the series. Accuracy was acceptable (group about 1 inch).

Load Series III (300 Win Mag, Lapua Naturalis, Norma MRP): This series seemed to be properly estimated as it gave velocities I was expecting for this caliber. The average velocity for the starting load (72 grain) was 2900 f/s and it increased to 3120 f/s for the max load (76 grain). The best accuracy was acchied with 75 grains of powder.

Load Series IV (300 Weath Mag, Lapua Naturalis, Norma MRP):
This series seemed to be near max as it gave top velocities even with the starting load. The average velocity for the starting load (82 grain) was 3100 f/s. The velocity increased to 3280 f/s for the load just below max (85 grain). The bolt started lifting with difficulty so I did not fire my max load (86 grain).

Any thoughts or comments?

Thank you,
-Omid

-----------------

Testing 7mm Rem Mag Loads:




Testing 300 WM Loads:

Some additional observations and questions:

In my early tests (Aug. 27 and October 27th), I achieved average velocities of 2970 f/s and 2930 f/s for a certain 8.59 Titan load. Same load, loaded in new brass gave 2880 f/s on a colder day (November 26th) and did not produce the same sub-MOA group. I think this is related to temprature change more than change in brass. Am I Correct?


Also, same load as above fired 200 grain Nosler Accubond bullets at an average velocity of ~ 2780 f/s. How could the 200 gr bullet go slower than the 230 grain Naturalis bullet??

A question for the experienced members of the forum:

How sensitive are Norma MRP and 217 to temperature variations?

As mentioned above, it seems that my loads developed for summer are not optimal for winter. Is there a way to develop a load which is less sensitive to temperature? The Norma reloading manual says that it is possible to develop such a load and it will work only for the bullet/powder/rifle combination for which it was developed. The manual does not explain how to do this though.

You're going to need some non-temperature sensitive powders.

Never used MRP. But, have heard it is the same as RL 22. If true it will be highly affected by temp. swings. I stopped using RL 22 for that reason.

Hello again and Happy New Year to forum members,

I was out of shooting mindset for a few days (became a dad on December 28th!) but now I am gradually returning back to [the new] normal

To Reloader 28: I think you are right and NORMA MRP may be affected by temperature more than some other powders. This powder and Norma 217 are my main powders. I will continue experimenting with them and will post my findings here. The temperature in the Los Angeles area is cooler now (50s to 70s) but not nearly as cold as, say, Wisconsin

I am currently researching Vihtavuori N560 and I think if I decide to switch powders, N560 would be it. Any thoughts on this powder?

Congrats on the new addition, Omid. Hopefully, you banked enough sleep to last you the next 1-2 years.

Congratulations on the addition, Omid! Thanks for posting and keeping up on the thread, too.

Thank Azar and MZ5! I will start reloading again soon, maybe in a couple of weeks. This week I have a patent application to finish and next week I am attending Shot Show.

OFF TOPIC: I have developed several new concepts related to rifles copes. One of them is very close to being made commercially and will debut at the Shot Show this year. It is a riflescope that automatically changes its point of aim with zoom: At low zoom, you are zeroed at 100 yards, as you increase magnification, the scope automatically adjusts point of aim for 200Y, 300Y etc. The concept is similar to the Leathewood ART SCOPE which was developed by the late Mr Jim Leatherwood during the Vietnam war. However, my solution is optical so the complicated mechanical cam used by Leatherwood is not needed.

Hello all,

After a break, I have started back with my reloading experiments. I am now loading Naturalis bullets for a new caliber: 8X68S. I have a custom Mauser rifle in this caliber which I have not shot yet. I am mounting a scope on it and while waiting for New England Custom Gun to furnish the proper scope mounts for this rifle, I started developing a load for it:

70-75 grains of N560 powder (made by Vihta Vuori of Norway), New RWS brass, Lapua Naturalis bullets (180 grain).

In my previous loads, I used Norma MRP as my main powder but have now started experimenting with N560 as well. It is approximately the same burn rate as MRP but might lead to better results and/or less temperature sensitivity. I am going to test this powder in 300 Weatherby, 7mm Mag and 338 Mag as well.

Any suggestions or comments?

Based on the Vihtavouri 2017 reloading manual and a couple other sources, I have made the following estimates for next round of loading:

7mm Rem Mag: 55-56gr N560, 156 gr Naturalis bullet
300 Win Mag: 70-76gr N560, 170gr Naturalis bullet
300 Weatherby: 76-80gr N560, 170gr Naturalis Bullet
338 Win Mag: 69-74 gr N560, 230 gr Naturalis bullet

Has anyone used N560 powder before? I appreciate any feedback or comments before I make the above loads for testing this Saturday.

Thank you
-Omid

OK, I tested the above loads during the weekend and here are the results:

7MM Remington Magnum: Excellent group (sub-MOA) with both 61 grain and 62 grains of N560. It looks like there is still room for 1 to 2 grains more powder. It also appears that N560 has the same power and burning rate as Norma MRP.

I also tested some leftover loads from the previous experiment (loaded with Norma 217). I figured those are probably exceeding maxiumum safe loads so I stopped firing after I noticed velocities above 3050 f/s and exctraction become sticky. So, those loads (shown by green marks in the chart below) are not recommended. Next time I will reduce those loads.




Next, I tested loads in 300 Wby. The loads with 79 and 80 grains of N560 gave best groups (sub-MOA).

The loads shown using Norma MRP are from the previous experiment (in November) and are probably above safe limits. I intend to reduce them and try again. (Note: The velocity at 82 grain MRP is a measurement error. I think it was caused by direct sun light hitting the chronograph sensors.)



And finally, here are the results for 8X68S caliber. I did not get a good group with any of the loads but it was the first time ever that I was firing my 8X68S rifle. So, I don't consider this a problem. There could be issues with scope adjustment or something else..




So, what do you guys think of these results? Any comments? What should I check with the 8X68 loads or the rifle to get good accuracy?

Thank you,
-Omid

There seems to be something wrong with the links to pictures. I don't see them. Could you try again? I'd like to see your results.

I used DropBox to share photos and it looks like they have disabled the public sharing feature on March 15th! I just made an account on PhotoBucket and copied the velocity graphs there. Regrettably, my previous pictures in this thread won't be visible since they are still in DropBox.

Here are the results for 300 Wby and 7MM Mag:

Thanks for re-posting the speed-vs-charge graphs. Too bad about DropBox. Perhaps, over time, you can move the other pics over? They were great, and are really central to the thread!

Thanks MZ5 but I am not sure if I can restore the photos in previous posts. I think what is possible is to move the pictures to a new host and use them again in new post as we continue the topic.

Now, I have a few questions that I'd appreciate if you -or other members- could answer:

a) In 7MM magnum, the case is still about 20% or so empty when using Norma MRP or Vihtavuori N560 charges. I checked with reloading books and they too show max loads which fill the case to 80 or 85%. The velocity is OK and the accuracy is superb. Should I still go another 1 or 2 grain higher or stop here?

b) Here are the results for 8X68S. The velocities are OK and increase naturally but I could not get a good (1 MOA or less) group with any of them. I think there is still room for may be 1 or 2 grain more powder. Should I go higher in this caliber too?

I don't own or load for either the 7RM or the 8x68, so I can only comment very generally.

With the 7RM, my Norma manual lists charge ranges of 61 - 63 grains of MRP for their 156gr Oryx bullet, and charges of 69.7 - 73.4 for 217 under the same bullet. You're in that range, and your speeds are in the general range in my Norma manual, too. Since you're using a different bullet, one can't compare directly, but it seems like you're in the right range. Personally, I wouldn't discard excellent precision looking for another 50 - 80 ft/sec, but that's up to you.

I don't show data in my Norma manual for the 8x68S.

Sorry for the few weeks of delay.. I have now switched to my own domain server so I should be able to post pictures here without fear of losing them again.. Also, another good news: Lapua North America very kindly sent me samples Naturalis bullets to use in my load development experiments.

I will start load development shortly and will post my results here soon.

-Omid

That's pretty sweet. Looking forward to the results. Now if you can score some ballistic gel. I'd like to see the recovered bullets.

It would be cool to see some more recovered bullets.

Good deal! Looking forward to resumed testing!

Me too

Especially since we can actually get the full line of Lapua bullets here from several manufacturers.

I have started loading new cartridges and will share with you the results soon, hopefully by next week end.. Meanwhile, I dis another experiment that I think is interesting and would like to share the results here: I weighed all my rifles! I have had some of these rifles for many years but I didn't really now how much they weigh. So, a few days ago I ordered a digital scale from Amazon and weigh them:

Mauser (custom), 338 Win Mag ---- 8.7 lb
Heym SR 30, 7mm Rem Mag --------- 9.2 lb
Styer-Mannlicher, 270 Win ------- 9.3 lb
Sauer 80, 7X64 ------------------ 10.0 lb
Sauer 202, 300 Win Mag ---------- 10.3 lb
Mauser (custom), 8X68S ---------- 10.6 lb
Lazzeroni, 8.59 Titan ----------- 10.9 lb
Mauser (Voere), 300 Wby --------- 11.9 lb

I then calculated the recoil energy for the loads that I have been developing using Lapua Naturalis. Here are the results:

Mauser (custom), 338 Win Mag --- 36.6 ft/lb
Heym SR 30, 7mm Rem Mag -------- 19.5 ft/lb
Styer-Mannlicher, 270 Win: ---
Sauer 80, 7X64: ---
Sauer 202, 300 Win Mag --------- 23.5 ft/lb
Mauser (custom), 8X68S --------- 25 ft/lb
Lazzeroni L2000, 8.59 Titan ---- 37.8 ft/lb
Mauser (Voere), 300 Wby -------- 24 ft/lb


These results are consistent with what I have observed at the range. The Mauser in 338 is too light for the 231 grain Natralis bullet and generates fierce recoil. On the other hand the big Voere rifle in 300 Wby is very heavy and shooting 170 grain Naturalis bullets is no problem..


My 338 Magnum rifle:



Left to right: Styer (270 Win), Lazzeroni (8.59 Titan), Custom Mauser in 8X68S and Voere in 300 Wby:

Hello there,

I am "almost ready" for testing a new series of loads in 4 different calibers: 8X68S, 300 Wby, 7X64 and 7mm Rem Mag. I have loaded 12 test cartridges in each of the first three calibers and I will load 12 rounds of 7mm Magnum soon. Below you can see a picture of the long and beautiful 7X64 cartridges. All rounds are loaded using Lapua Naturalis bullets and N560 powder. All rounds use new brass and are intended for hunting so I have made sure that they feed properly.

I have not loaded 300 Win Mag cartridges since I have not quite figured out what I should change to improve accuracy? In my previous tests, velocity was good but I could not get a tight group. Is bullet seating depth a major factor in accuracy? How about using a powder with different burn rate?

Your thoughts and comments are always appreciated.

Presuming a 24 inch barrel and 3.29 COAL on the 7mag, you're tracking what Quickload predicts for a velocity pretty nicely with the N560 load curve, and perhaps more importantly, maxing out at 47k psi.

Hi Erik,

Thank you very much for testing my 7mm Mag loads in QuickLoad! Would you be kind enough to check the loads I have written below in QuickLoad as well?


7X64: 54-57 grains N560, COL = 3.32"
8X68s: 74-77 grains N560, COL = 3.36"
300 Wby: 79-82 grain N560, COL = 3.56"

For 7mm Mag, I have tested up to 62 grains of N560 (COL= 3.24", 25" barrel). The VihtaVuori manual (2017) shows 60.2 grain of N560 as max for this bullet. I didn't notice any pressure signs and the accuracy was excellent. The same manual also shows larges charges (e.g. 68 grain N560 for a 160 grain Speer bullet). What's your suggestion based on your quick-load analysis? Should I go one or two grain higher (upto 64 grain) or stop?

Thank you,
-Omid

PS. I have a feeling that some loads I'd tested previously were near or exceeding maximum pressure. For example, I think the 300 Wby loads with Norma MRP were too hot. Similarly, some 7mm Mags loaded with Norma 217 were probably at or over max too.

Regarding the 7 Rem mag....with the COAL and barrel length adjusted the Quickload predicted pressure and velocity for 62 grains of 560 are 47974 psi and 2884 FPS, 64 is 52817 PSI and 2977 FPS and 66 grains is 58113 PSI and 3071 FPS. 66.5 Grains 59516 PSI and 3094 FPS.. I'll let you decide what you are comfortable with given what the book max is.

Cartridge : 7 x 64 Brenneke
Bullet : .284, 155, Lapua Naturalis N564 7027
Useable Case Capaci: 60.162 grain H2O = 3.906 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.320 inch = 84.33 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N560

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 76 43.20 2171 1622 24813 7841 80.7 1.727
-18.0 78 44.28 2224 1703 26279 8142 82.2 1.687
-16.0 80 45.36 2279 1787 27835 8441 83.6 1.647
-14.0 82 46.44 2334 1875 29491 8738 85.0 1.608
-12.0 84 47.52 2389 1965 31251 9030 86.4 1.570
-10.0 86 48.60 2445 2058 33126 9318 87.7 1.533
-08.0 88 49.68 2502 2154 35123 9601 88.9 1.497
-06.0 90 50.76 2558 2252 37251 9876 90.1 1.461
-04.0 91 51.84 2615 2354 39517 10144 91.3 1.426
-02.0 93 52.92 2672 2458 41939 10403 92.4 1.392
+00.0 95 54.00 2730 2565 44524 10652 93.4 1.359
+02.0 97 55.08 2787 2674 47270 10890 94.4 1.326
+04.0 99 56.16 2845 2786 50237 11117 95.3 1.291
+06.0 101 57.24 2903 2901 53395 11330 96.1 1.255 ! Near Maximum !
+08.0 103 58.32 2961 3018 56787 11529 96.8 1.220 ! Near Maximum !
+10.0 105 59.40 3019 3138 60420 11713 97.5 1.186 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 95 54.00 2898 2890 54066 10908 98.6 1.256 ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 95 54.00 2522 2189 36358 9832 84.2 1.471

Cartridge : 8 x 68 S
Bullet : .323, 180, Lapua Naturalis N559 8009
Useable Case Capaci: 74.387 grain H2O = 4.830 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.336 inch = 84.73 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N560

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 84 59.20 2371 2247 28297 8220 80.9 1.555
-18.0 87 60.68 2433 2367 30137 8537 82.4 1.516
-16.0 89 62.16 2496 2490 32108 8851 84.0 1.477
-14.0 91 63.64 2560 2618 34222 9160 85.5 1.439
-12.0 93 65.12 2624 2751 36491 9463 86.9 1.402
-10.0 95 66.60 2688 2889 38930 9759 88.3 1.365
-08.0 97 68.08 2754 3031 41553 10046 89.7 1.329
-06.0 99 69.56 2819 3177 44375 10324 90.9 1.294
-04.0 101 71.04 2886 3328 47419 10590 92.1 1.259
-02.0 104 72.52 2952 3484 50701 10843 93.3 1.223
+00.0 106 74.00 3019 3644 54250 11082 94.3 1.185 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 108 75.48 3087 3808 58091 11306 95.3 1.149 ! Near Maximum !
+04.0 110 76.96 3154 3977 62252 11513 96.2 1.113 ! Near Maximum !
+06.0 112 78.44 3222 4150 66772 11701 97.0 1.079 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 114 79.92 3290 4327 71692 11870 97.7 1.045 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 116 81.40 3359 4508 77052 12017 98.4 1.013 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 106 74.00 3202 4097 66142 11242 99.1 1.089 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 106 74.00 2789 3110 44076 10306 85.4 1.297

Cartridge : .300 Weath. Mag.
Bullet : .308, 170, Lapua Naturalis LR N558 7105
Useable Case Capaci: 88.121 grain H2O = 5.722 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.560 inch = 90.42 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N560

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 76 63.20 2467 2298 29177 10075 86.0 1.584
-18.0 78 64.78 2529 2414 31005 10433 87.5 1.547
-16.0 80 66.36 2591 2533 32953 10785 88.8 1.510
-14.0 82 67.94 2653 2657 35030 11129 90.1 1.474
-12.0 84 69.52 2715 2783 37245 11464 91.4 1.438
-10.0 86 71.10 2778 2913 39607 11789 92.5 1.404
-08.0 88 72.68 2841 3047 42117 12102 93.6 1.370
-06.0 89 74.26 2904 3184 44822 12402 94.6 1.336
-04.0 91 75.84 2967 3324 47700 12687 95.6 1.304
-02.0 93 77.42 3031 3467 50775 12956 96.4 1.267
+00.0 95 79.00 3094 3613 54061 13208 97.2 1.231
+02.0 97 80.58 3157 3762 57538 13441 97.9 1.196 ! Near Maximum !
+04.0 99 82.16 3220 3914 61231 13655 98.5 1.162 ! Near Maximum !
+06.0 101 83.74 3283 4068 65174 13847 99.0 1.129 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 103 85.32 3346 4225 69386 14017 99.4 1.097 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 105 86.90 3408 4384 73890 14164 99.7 1.066 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 95 79.00 3258 4007 65115 13121 100.0 1.135 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 95 79.00 2879 3129 43643 12556 89.9 1.343

Thank you very much for your analysis Erik! Based on your data, the loads I have prepared are in the safe zone with max charges being "near maximum". I am planning to test these at the range this weekend. I will share my findings here.

Happy Friday

It was a rainy day in Los Angeles today and it made it difficult to measure velocity. Rain caused my Chrony device to malfunction but I manages to measure a few velocities before this happened. I will update this post and share the results soon..

Here are my updated velocity results and additional observations:

Caliber 8X68S: I had loaded 12 cartridges (4 sets of three) with 74 grain to 77 grain of N560. In terms of accuracy all four loads were good (less than 1.5 inches) with 75 grain producing best accuracy. These loads produced velocity consistent with my previous test in March. Unfortunately, rain made my chronograph malfunction so I could not record velocities for the 77 grain load. The chart below shows the velocity results.

Caliber 7X64: I could not measure velocity but loads with 55 grain and 56 grain powder (N560) produced touching groups! Fantastic!

Caliber 300 Win Mag: I could only measure velocity for the first two sets of loads (see plot below). The loads very the same charge as my previous test but COAL was increased to near max. The load with 76 grain of N560 produced best accuracy (touching holes) at 100 yards

Here is one of two excellent groups produced by the 7X64 loads in my Sauer 80 rifle. Test loads with 55 grain and 56 grain of N560 powder produced touching groups. This is a good sign of a nice an stable optimal charge. Unfortunately, I could not record velocity.

This is the best group I got in 300 Win Mag caliber. The rifle is a Sauer 202 Take Down model with 25 inch barrel. I had increased my COAL to 3.44" which is nearly touching the lands for this series of loads. When I tried the loads with 73 grain to 75 grain powder, I got two very close shots (nearly touching) and one a bit away. Then at the max load of 76 grain N560 I got this beautiful touching group. I am not sure if the flyer shots are due to flinching or is related to the fact that the bullet is seated with a high (more than standard) COAL. I don't think it would be safe to increase the charge above 76 grain but I would like to try other COAL to see if it has a significant effect. The Vihtavuori reloading manual suggests a COAL of 3.30" with 30 caliber Naturalis bullets which is nearly 0.15" shorter than how I loaded them.

@ Erik: Could you please very my 300 Wing Mag loads with 74 to 76 grain of N560 too? I used COAL of 3.44". Also, I am curious to know how pressure and velocity will change if we seat the bullets deeper at COAL = 3.30? Thank you very much.

-Omid

Cartridge : .300 Win. Mag.(SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 170, Lapua Naturalis LR N558 7105
Useable Case Capaci: 82.794 grain H2O = 5.376 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.440 inch = 87.38 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N560

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 74 57.60 2319 2030 25618 8913 82.2 1.665
-18.0 76 59.04 2376 2131 27135 9249 83.6 1.627
-16.0 78 60.48 2434 2236 28751 9583 85.1 1.590
-14.0 79 61.92 2492 2344 30467 9912 86.4 1.554
-12.0 81 63.36 2550 2455 32290 10237 87.8 1.518
-10.0 83 64.80 2609 2570 34229 10556 89.1 1.483
-08.0 85 66.24 2669 2688 36292 10867 90.3 1.449
-06.0 87 67.68 2728 2810 38488 11170 91.4 1.415
-04.0 89 69.12 2788 2934 40828 11464 92.6 1.382
-02.0 90 70.56 2848 3062 43319 11747 93.6 1.350
+00.0 92 72.00 2908 3193 45975 12018 94.6 1.318
+02.0 94 73.44 2969 3327 48809 12275 95.5 1.287
+04.0 96 74.88 3029 3463 51834 12519 96.3 1.251
+06.0 98 76.32 3089 3603 55065 12747 97.0 1.216 ! Near Maximum !
+08.0 100 77.76 3150 3745 58518 12959 97.7 1.183 ! Near Maximum !
+10.0 102 79.20 3210 3890 62199 13153 98.3 1.150 ! Near Maximum !

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 92 72.00 3081 3583 55687 12231 99.2 1.217 ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 92 72.00 2693 2737 37406 11165 85.9 1.425

Cartridge : .300 Win. Mag.(SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 170, Lapua Naturalis LR N558 7105
Useable Case Capaci: 80.161 grain H2O = 5.205 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.300 inch = 83.82 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N560

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 76 57.60 2354 2092 26737 8924 82.9 1.637
-18.0 78 59.04 2413 2198 28362 9257 84.4 1.599
-16.0 80 60.48 2472 2307 30096 9586 85.8 1.561
-14.0 82 61.92 2532 2420 31941 9911 87.2 1.524
-12.0 84 63.36 2592 2536 33907 10231 88.5 1.488
-10.0 86 64.80 2653 2656 36003 10543 89.8 1.453
-08.0 88 66.24 2714 2780 38237 10846 91.0 1.418
-06.0 90 67.68 2775 2906 40622 11140 92.2 1.384
-04.0 92 69.12 2836 3037 43166 11424 93.2 1.351
-02.0 93 70.56 2898 3170 45886 11695 94.3 1.318
+00.0 95 72.00 2960 3306 48792 11954 95.2 1.286
+02.0 97 73.44 3021 3446 51901 12197 96.1 1.250
+04.0 99 74.88 3083 3589 55231 12426 96.8 1.213 ! Near Maximum !
+06.0 101 76.32 3145 3734 58800 12637 97.5 1.179 ! Near Maximum !
+08.0 103 77.76 3207 3883 62630 12830 98.2 1.146 ! Near Maximum !
+10.0 105 79.20 3269 4034 66730 13005 98.7 1.114 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 95 72.00 3132 3702 59206 12091 99.4 1.183 ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 95 72.00 2742 2839 39632 11166 86.7 1.392

Hi Erik,

Thank you very much for doing the analysis. I included the velocity estimates from your analysis in my experimental velocity plot for 300 Win Mag and the result is the graph below.

Both the analytical results and the measured values show that velocity is reduced when the bullet is seated farther. But it seems that the analytical data overestimate the actual velocities I measured. This could be natural due to natural variations in case capacity, powder and also natural errors in speed measurement

As I mentioned before, I had loaded cartridges upto 76 grain but I couldn't get the velocity of the last rounds due to rain. I am thinking of buying a LabRadar for velocity measurement. I am reading good reviews about it but still a bit skeptical if it can actualy be used in a crowded range shuch as the one we have in Los Angeles. Anybody here in the forum uses LabRadar?

The Labradar has arrived and I am studying its settings and functions. Next time I'll go to the range to test loads, I will take it with me and test it

Before I develop and test a next set of loads, I would like to discuss a few questions with the forum members and hear your thoughts:

a) What is the general rule for using a faster or slowing powder in the same cartridge as the bullet weight changes? My understanding is that a lighter bullet generally needs a faster burning powder whereas a heavier bullet requires a slower burning rate.

b) In reloading manuals the recommended powder charge generally decreases as bullet weight is increased (if same powder used) . Why exactly is that? I presume it is mostly related to the fact that heavy bullets are longer and take more of the case capacity so there is less room for powder. Or is it because a heavy bullet is slower and allows less room for gas expansion after ignition (=higher pressure)?

c) What is the point with the 7MM Rem Mag case capacity while most loads listed for this cartridge fill the case at only 85% to 90% of its case capacity?

d) In the same cartridge (say 30-06), what bullet weight would be most suited for a shorter barrel (say 20")? My "instinct" says a heavy 220 grain bullet would work better in a short barreled rifle but I don't have a rational justification.

e) What is an acceptable powder burn percentage for a rifle cartridge? Should a reloader make sure that say 95% of the powder burns before the bullet leaves the muzzle? Absence of a computer program such as Quickload, how can we know if the powder is fully burned before the bullet exits?


Happy Friday and looking forward to your comments
-Omid

It is interesting to see how case capacity affects pressure and in turn bullet velocity. The plot below shows the velocity measurements for N560 Powder and 170 grain Lapua Naturalis bullets in two different calibers: 300 Win Mag and 300 Weatherby. It is interesting how 300 Weatherby cartridge needs about 6 grains more powder to produce same velocity as 300 Win Mag.

Hello again everyone,

I got the chance to do some range tests on Saturday. I also tested the LabRadar for the first time. It works pretty well but took some time to learn how to work the menu options.

300 WBY Update: You can see my friend shooting my 300 Wby rifle in the picture below. I had loaded four sets of cartridges from with 79 grain N560 to 82 grain. The velocities very nicely increased from what I had measured before and reached a maximum of about 3100 f/s. I did not get the highly-accurate touching groups that I obtained before with 78 and 79 grain charge though. The groups were like this: two shots nearly touching then one about 1.5 inches away!? What is the most likely cause of this phenomenon? Is it just flinching or I should seat the bullets a bit deeper or what?


300 Win Mag Update: I had loaded 10 cartridges with 76 grain of N560 and a long COAL of 3.44". I had obtained excellent accuracy with this load last time so I just wanted to test. I also wanted to measure the velocity of this load since last time it rained and my chronometer failed. Well, it turns out that this load produces very high velocity in excess of 3100 f/s. The accuracy is OK but not outstanding as the previous test. I think this load perhaps exceeds the maximum safe pressure for 300 Win Mag so I intend to reduce it and test a shorter COAL. I think a max speed of about 2950 to 3000 f/s is more natural for 300 Win Mag and the 170 grain Lapua Naturalis bullet. The average velocity along with Min and Max velocity I obtained for this load are shown in the graph below (pale blue color).

Any thoughts or comments? Thank you and happy 4th of July!

Irregular neck tension is the typical culprit.

I would first like to thank the originator of this thread and all who have contributed so much useful information here.

My practical (non-range) experience with the Naturalis bullet is limited to one shot with the former 180 grain bullet, in a .30-06 cartridge from Remington called Premier Green that is no longer available. The target was a whitetail deer, 125 pounds dressed, which I shot in the neck at thirty-five yards. The deer dropped dead to the ground without moving six inches from where it stood. The bullet took out the spinal column in the neck and I recovered it inside the animal. This is what it looked like:





This week I acquired a reloading kit, which prompted my hunt for information on loads. I look forward to benefitting from the knowledge others have acquired and are willing to share here.

Welcome to the 'fire, eidsvolling.

Welcome to the topic "eidsvolling" and thank you "Reloader28" for sharing your thoughts.

Regarding my latest 300 WM load: This load is producing very high velocities ~ 3150 f/s which is 100 f/s more than what I was expecting. (If you extrapolate the previous data points on the plot, velocity at long COAL with 76grain of powder should be around 3050 f/s) I am seating the bullets way out (COAL = 3.44) which is 0.1 inch longer than standard maximum length for 300 Win Mag so probably the charge of 76 grain of N560 and the velocity of 3150 f/s are OK but I still prefer going back on the charge may be maxing at 74 grain to produce velocity of around 3000 f/s. Another thing to consider is that new velocities were measure on a hot day (80 degrees F) while the previous ones were measured on a cool/rainy day (55 to 60 degrees F). This may have increased the chamber pressure (?)

I had the opportunity to go hunting in the weekend and shot my first California pig with Lapua Naturalis bullets! The pig was about 100 to 150 yards away on a hill and was walking down mostly facing us. I shot her with my 7mm Magnum rifle and the bullet hit her near the front shoulder with a very clear impact sound. The bullet had penetrated nearly the entire length of the pigs body and we found it under the skin near the hind leg. This is excellent bullet performance.

Looks great, nice to hear of some actual on game performance of these bullets. I like your buddy in the picture too, he seems very interested in that hog

Hey! Good for you!

I have found that this bullet engages the rifling at much shorter COAL than a more conventional designed bullet. I had to drop back to 2.85" OAL in my 308 vs my normal 2.9 in my SAKO that I normally load to. This could explain your higher than expected velocities. (Higher starting pressures)

I got best accuracy at 2.85" OAL anyways which is about .050 off the lands in my rifle. While LAPUA doesn't say as far as I know, Barnes does recommend .050" minimum for best performance.

I don't have a 300 Win Mag, but I do have a 300 WSM. I have worked up loads in that around 3100 fps FWIW. I'm getting about 2800 fps in my 308 with good accuracy.

Keep it coming guys, I like these bullets. It's nice to see people having good experiences with them.

How about a close up of that pig bullet?

Very nice and I second wanting to see a few close ups of the bullet.

Here is a close up of the recovered bullet. This bullet stayed on its course and penetrated nearly the entire length of the animal.

They seem to mushroom out similar to a lead cored bullet unlike the Barnes in particular that has distinct petals.

Looks pretty darned good to me as well.

Wow, that looks great.

Load development for the 7mm Rem Mag caliber is completed:

62 grain of N560, Lapua Naturalis 155 grain bullets (NPL 7027) seated at 3.24" C.O.A.L.; Nosler Custom Brass (new) and Federal 215 Match Primer. This load produces average velocity of 2820 ft/s from the Heym SR 30 rifle.


My 7mm Magnum rifle is very accurate. It is a straight-pull Heym SR30 which I have owned for 18 years. Very well-made and relatively light (9.5 lb with scope). Now I have a very accurate and effective hunting load for it too

Accuracy looks nice, but for a 155 grain bullet in the 7mm RM aren't you leaving 200+ fps on the table? Obviously, if you are happy with it it doesn't really matter.

Thanks for the update.

Great to see the performance on live game. Thanks for sharing.

Hi Azar,

You have a valid point. I could try and go higher (actually I did at some point using Norma 217, reached velocities in excess of 3000 f/s) but at the end of the day the current load is perfectly adequate for hunting and I am very happy with it. This load is probably in the same power level as the load I have developed for my Sauer 80 7X64 rifle (pictured below). In this rifle, 55 or 56 grains of N560 behind same Lapua Naturalis bullets produce touching groups at 100 yards. I have not choreographed the velocity but it is probably about 2800 f/s.

Load development for both my 7mm Rem Mag and 7X64 rifles are complete. I am not fully satisfied with my loads in 300 Win Mag and 8X68S calibers yet so I'll continue my experiments in those calibers..

Would you use a chronograph to do that?

I didn't chronograph those loads because rain got into my instrument's sensor and it didn't work correctly after that.. This incident inspired me to buy a Labradar. I will use it to test the velocity of my optimal 7X64 load next time

Update: After some research, I have concluded that the most probable reason for my last 300 Win Mag loads with 76 grain N560 and COAL = 3.44" showing too much velocity (~3150 f/s) is that the bullets have been touching the lands. So, in my next loads that I am currently developing, I am planning to reduce COAL to 3.40" and further to 3.30".

By the way, now I also have a Blaser R8 rifle in 300 Win Mag. So, I can test these loads in this rifle too. Are there any members here who have developed loads for two rifles in the same caliber? What are things to note or expect?

Thanks,
-Omid

I have got a new toy (picture below) and used that to check how much my cases stretch after firing. It turns out that my new brass stretch about 0.017" inch to fit the chamber of my Sauer 202 rifle. (Blaser R8 rifle seem to have a similar chamber too, just may be 0.002" inch different from the Sauer).

As a next step I am thinking using fired brass to make loads for the Sauer 202 rifle. Is there a significant advantage (in terms of accuracy) to use brass fired in the same rifle for making loads? I did not get very tight groups (less than 1 inch) in my 300 WM rifle and I am trying to find out why. It could be that I am flinching (as usually two rounds hit nearly same spot, one goes off) but I want to make sure I have used all the options available to a hand loader to achieve maximum accuracy. Any thoughts?

Hello all,

Here are some pictures from my prairie dog hunt in Wyoming last week. These are not directly related to the topic of the tread but I thought it would be fun to share. We were testing several new optics including a rifle scope of my own design

Well, I think I found the cause of this problem last night! I was playing with this rifle looking through the scope. I had a bore-sighter attached to the muzzle and I wanted to make sure that the barrel is maintaining its orientation when I take-down/re-assemble the gun. I then noticed that the scope's rear mount had some side play. I could push the scope a bit to left and right by my hand. Looking through the boresighter I noticed that the scope's point of aim (with respect the barrel) would shift about 4 inches /100 yards anytime I push the scope's ocular sideways. We'll this loose base rear mount can explain why I didn't get tight groups during my range tests.

I re-adjusted the rear mount according to EAW instructions and bore sighted the scope again. Then, properly tightened the mount's torque screws and the play went away.

Good for you!
Sometimes those little things can be slightly embarrassing, but at the same time it's nice to find a simple thing that fixes the issue. :-)

I have started making loads for the 300 Win Mag rifles again. I have also swapped the riflescopes on a couple of my rifles. I will update this topic soon. Meanwhile, here are some pictures of the Sauer 202 for you to enjoy

thanks for sharing so much good information in these posts! I have purchased some Lapua Naturalis bullets for my Verney Carron Impact Plus 9.3x62 and will study this information closely while doing my own load development. I have another question, slightly off topic - what make & model case is that for the Sauer 202 takedown rifle? I need something similar for my Verney Carron take down rifle and i think the case for that Sauer would do nicely.

Hi CastnBlast,

Than you for your kind words. I look forward to hearing from you about loading Lapua naturalis bullets in 9.3X62 caliber. What do you plan to hunt with it? I guess it is great for moose. I used to live in Toronto and went moose hunting a couple of times (north or Thunder Bay). Verney Carron take down rifle? Must be very interesting! Please post pictures of your rifle if possible. I know Monsieur Verney Carron in person and say hi to each other when we see each other at SHOT Show. I am not familiar with their bolt-action rifles though. My case is made by Negrini: https://negrinicases.com/

I'll post more data on loading Lapua Naturalis bullets very soon..

-Omid

Yesterday, I made a fresh set of 300 Win Mag rounds for testing in Blaser R8. These rounds go from 68 grain to 74 grain of N560. The bullets are Lapua Naturalis 170 grain and they seated to COAL of 3.40". Previously, when testing in Sauer 202, I used COAL of 3.45" so these are a bit shorter.

I plan to make similar loads for Sauer 202 but using 1-time-fired brass instead of new brass. Now here is a question: I used Redding's Instant Indicator to check uniformity of my seating depths. The tool shows about +- 0.003" in variation among my loads (I loaded 21 rounds). Is this normal or shows there is some play in my press?

That's not exactly abnormal variation in seating depth. Those bullets' profiles may not match very well with the seating stem in the dies you're using. Even if it does, ogive lengths vary. For that matter, there may be some of that sort of mismatch or variation in your measuring tool (not that there is, but most people don't check that sort of thing or don't have tools or methods to do so). Runout is one thing, a couple thousandths of seating depth variation is another. I'd investigate, but I wouldn't lose too much sleep over this.

to report back: I loaded some Naturalis 220 grain 9.3 bullets for my 9.3x62. Used the recipe published by Lapua, in new Lapua cases, Remington 9-1/2M primers, VV N-140 powder, 60 grains. Without using proper bench rest technique, ( holding rifle in my hands with wrists on the bags) , 5 shots went into 1.5" and 2.5" higher than my 286 grain loads. Perfect. Recoil was noticeably lower than the 286's, but not quite as accurate, the 286's will shoot under an inch in my rifle - not that such tiny differences matter when hunting big game.

@ Castnblast: Excellent! I am glad to hear that you got a good hunting load in your first try. Looking forward to hearing your experience on the terminal ballistics of the bullets.



Today I had a strange experience: I have some once-fired 300 Win Mag brass from my tests with the Sauer 202 rifle. I am trying to resize them (full-length) but got confused after some tests:

• Using Redding's Instant Indicator, I measured the base-to-shoulder length of fired cases. They averaged 0.002 inch longer than the reference "standard 300 Win Mag gauge" supplied with the Indicator. This is OK according to Redding documents as the supplied gauge represents SAMI minimum chamber dimentions.
• Using same method, I measured base-to-shoulder length of some new (unfired brass). They measure 0.012 to 0.017 inch shorter than the reference gauge. This is OK too.
• Then when I full-length resized some of the fired cases, their shoulder-to-base now measures 0.004" longer than the reference!! This means not only the shoulders have not been pushed back, they have actually moved forward by about 0.002 inch! Has anybody observed such a phenomenon? I tried to look for information online but did not find much. There was one comment on a British hunting forum saying that this is normal as the brass springs back when the neck-sizer bushing inside the die pulls the case neck up on the return movement of the press.

Hmm.. I am confused. I was expecting the FL-sized cases have shoulder say 0.005 inch shorter than the standard chamber gauge (?)

I think you need to turn your die in a 1/4 turn at a time. You’ll get to the spot where you bump the shoulder slightly.

Thank you! This solved the problem! I had set the die to touch the shareholder. When I lowered the die further (slightly less than 1/4 turn) and FL-sized a case, the shoulder is bumped back to Reference - 0.004 ". I then FL-sized more cases and they are all consistent showing same base-to-shoulder length of Refrence - 0.004".

Thanks again,
-Omid

Use this tool to measure how much the shoulder is being set back on the brass fired in your rifle.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...pace-gauge-5-bushing-set-with-comparator

When resizing, move the shoulder back on your fired brass 0.0015" to 0.002".

That is plenty to allow for reliable chambering and to maintain good accuracy. More than is needed is working against yourself on accuracy, potentially reducing the reliability of the firing pin making adequate contact to ignite the primer - not saying it is going to be a problem, but certainly not helping improve reliability either.

The only thing that matters is moving the shoulder back compared to your fired brass. The "standard chamber" is close to meaningless.