Re: Do you really "NEED" a FFP rifle scope. Wednesday at 10:44 AM
FFP certainly has its application. As a law enforcement sniper and competitive shooter, I tend to separate my requirements. I DO NOT use FFP for work. I use SFP. For Tactical competitions, I absolutely use FFP.
For ELR shooting and hunting I prefer SFP.
For LE, having tried to use FFP, I found too many negatives. The environment for an LE sniper is not as dynamic as one would think. We are in a position of security and overwatch and 9 times out of 10 I am 120 yards or less with the majority being within 70 yards or less. We always want to minimize the containment zone and a larger containment zone typically means more civilian/non-threat presence. So closer is often better for the LE Sniper. Being closer requires more FOV and less magnification. On FFP, less magnification, often even minimum, means very thin crosshairs. Add in low light, shadows, dark trailer parks, wooded areas and the reticle is very hard to pick up quickly for a reactive shot.While an illuminated reticle is a benefit, is not always practical. For LE work, I can't remember when I had to utilize holds outside of training. I dial everything so FFP was negated. Due to liability concerns, we do not take long shots although we regularly train out to 600 yards. As LE Snipers our ROE and Liability are always at the forefront of our decision making process. We are not military snipers nor is our mission anything alike.
I much prefer the constant line thickness of the SFP riflescope for LE precision work.
For competitive purpose, FFP is invaluable as the situations that match directors like to utilize DO fully test your equipment and it IS a HUGE benefit.
While the FFP reticle has its advantages, it has its disadvantages on lower magnification too. So if you are an LE Sniper or hunter who may operate a good portion on lower magnifications at shorter distances, consider the mission and the environment and let that drive the equipment. My agency rifle has a Nightforce ATACR 5-25 SFP on it. I often operate at 5-12x and have been as close as 70 feet on glassfor prior deployments. I dial everything. I use higher mag for observation and identification if/when necessary. I have tried the Bushnell DMR3-21 and NF 15x F1. They were terrible choices and the entire team was in agreement. Other local teams have purchased FFP thinking that because the internet says FFP is a must for LE use, they had to have them only to find they had wasted their money and was to their detriment. It was not easy for them to get back in a good SFP scope which better fit their mission.
I am a firm believer in using an FFP when it fits. I have a few NF 4-16x42 F1's now and recently got rid of a Kahles 6-24. They are great for the tactical competition application and would be awesome if I was a military sniper. I personally would not choose them for LE work.
That has little to no application to hunting past 50 yards. A well designed FFP reticle is absolutely a better choice than a SFP from any range where you need to factor wind to as far as you want to shoot.
In the woods my S&B 3-12x42 with Mil Dot first focal plane is useless early and late on the lowest settings. In those conditions that scope is a 6-12x42 to have the reticle thick enough for my old eyes to see. It just so happens that in the deep woods is when you want to use the large field of view provided by the lower range of the scope.
Now I do not use that scope in the deer woods, I have other scopes for that use.
I can use the full range of the scope in daylight or not under tree canopy, like I experience mostly in western hunting. My guess is that most people who have first focal plane scopes only use the upper 2/3 of the range.
I love my S&B 3-12x42 with the first focal plane but I know its limitations. Now I am not a long range shooter but I can see the advantage of the FFP when using the scope as a dedicated long range unit.
Re: Do you really "NEED" a FFP rifle scope. Wednesday at 10:44 AM
FFP certainly has its application. As a law enforcement sniper and competitive shooter, I tend to separate my requirements. I DO NOT use FFP for work. I use SFP. For Tactical competitions, I absolutely use FFP.
For ELR shooting and hunting I prefer SFP.
For LE, having tried to use FFP, I found too many negatives. The environment for an LE sniper is not as dynamic as one would think. We are in a position of security and overwatch and 9 times out of 10 I am 120 yards or less with the majority being within 70 yards or less. We always want to minimize the containment zone and a larger containment zone typically means more civilian/non-threat presence. So closer is often better for the LE Sniper. Being closer requires more FOV and less magnification. On FFP, less magnification, often even minimum, means very thin crosshairs. Add in low light, shadows, dark trailer parks, wooded areas and the reticle is very hard to pick up quickly for a reactive shot.While an illuminated reticle is a benefit, is not always practical. For LE work, I can't remember when I had to utilize holds outside of training. I dial everything so FFP was negated. Due to liability concerns, we do not take long shots although we regularly train out to 600 yards. As LE Snipers our ROE and Liability are always at the forefront of our decision making process. We are not military snipers nor is our mission anything alike.
I much prefer the constant line thickness of the SFP riflescope for LE precision work.
For competitive purpose, FFP is invaluable as the situations that match directors like to utilize DO fully test your equipment and it IS a HUGE benefit.
While the FFP reticle has its advantages, it has its disadvantages on lower magnification too. So if you are an LE Sniper or hunter who may operate a good portion on lower magnifications at shorter distances, consider the mission and the environment and let that drive the equipment. My agency rifle has a Nightforce ATACR 5-25 SFP on it. I often operate at 5-12x and have been as close as 70 feet on glassfor prior deployments. I dial everything. I use higher mag for observation and identification if/when necessary. I have tried the Bushnell DMR3-21 and NF 15x F1. They were terrible choices and the entire team was in agreement. Other local teams have purchased FFP thinking that because the internet says FFP is a must for LE use, they had to have them only to find they had wasted their money and was to their detriment. It was not easy for them to get back in a good SFP scope which better fit their mission.
I am a firm believer in using an FFP when it fits. I have a few NF 4-16x42 F1's now and recently got rid of a Kahles 6-24. They are great for the tactical competition application and would be awesome if I was a military sniper. I personally would not choose them for LE work.
pretty much nails it. I have yet to see a FFP reticle that is worth a darn below 5x power and frankly they are starting to suck when you get below about 8x. I don't know why people can't just admit both have advantages depending on the power class of the optic and what you are doing with it.
That's why Pat and George designed the Bushy LRHS with the "donut of death" for when you have it at 3x....
that scope should NEVER have been FFP I don't care if god designed it.
Then spend your money elsewhere. If you're really THAT pissed that they didn't make a scope exactly to your personal SFP specifications, give them a call and complain. Probably won't help much though, they sell plenty of them.
I have two of them and find them to be stupendous optics. If funds were better, I'd have more of 'em. The only gripe I have is how heavy they are. I think if they could find a way to chop about 8oz off, they'd be AMAZING for a light weight rig, but they work fine as-is.
pretty much nails it. I have yet to see a FFP reticle.
Fixed it for you. It is truly amazing to see someone put the amount of time and effort that you do into denigrating a piece of equipment they have never used.
This is another reason I like using illuminated reticles. On an FFP scope under 200 yards, I just view the reticle as a duplex, which was easy to train my eyes to do when it is lit. At longer ranges where you need the subtensions, your magnification has almost always been increased as well.
That has little to no application to hunting past 50 yards. A well designed FFP reticle is absolutely a better choice than a SFP from any range where you need to factor wind to as far as you want to shoot.
That's why Pat and George designed the Bushy LRHS with the "donut of death" for when you have it at 3x....
I really like this FFP scope but as stated, it's heavy, and to the point of the thread, on my 3-12x, that reticle gets very fine at three power; however, I bought it for a niche use over snow and generally very bright conditions so it's fine.
But as the author in the OP's said, consider very carefully what your needs are.
