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Joined: Oct 2014
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
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Having actually broken my pelvis, I'm always skeptical of the guarantee that someone shot there WILL go down. Certainly shoot at the bad guy there, and anywhere else that presents itself, but I don't think it's the guaranteed stop that we've been told for so long.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 12,022
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2002
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I've seen real war-time films taken during the Viet Nam war. Whoever was filming chose to film Viet Cong soldiers charging a Green Beret A Team camp. The Viet Cong had explosive packs strapped to their backs. They were getting hit with everything, including a .50 cal BMG. Those BMG rounds were hitting and exiting in a huge spray of blood and tissue. However, the only Viet Cong that were stopped appeared to be those who sustained a CNS strike. They were so high on opiates and other compounds they probably didn't feel the bullet strikes. Several of them, already looking like red Swiss cheese, made it to the wire and detonated their packs.
America has a drug, PCP, that is fairly common and produces the same state of disassociation. Another rather infamous incident that happened in the 1970s or 1980s - two motorcycle officers pulled a motorist over for driving erratically. Autopsy results revealed the motorist had recently taken a large hit of PCP. When one of the motorcycle officers grabbed him the fight was on. The motorist grabbed a motorcycle helmet and began to beat the officers with it. Each officer carried a "wonder 9". Each officer emptied his mag into the motorist. The motorist beat the officers to death with the helmet he was holding. Back up arrived, and the officer pulled his unit up, grabbed his shotgun and put 2 slugs center mass into the motorist. One slug severed the motorist's spine, killing him.
There is NO guarantee any shot will stop, or anchor, your adversary, especially shots from a handgun, but the groin shots have produced more debilitating shots, with the exception of head shots, than any other shot placement.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,718
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,718 |
I hope everyone hasn't already forgotten the Denton TX cop who took out TWO muslim terrorists armed with carbines and body armor. Pretty much the scenario we're discussing here.
It was reported that the cop used his pistol to win the fight (that he was given) while out-numbered and out-gunned. I can't testify that this cop is a great 50yd shooter, but I wouldn't want to bet against it.
Mindset, tactics, skill. The officer responded with all three.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 56,285
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 56,285 |
If you got a 50 yard shot, take it.
_______________________________________________________
An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
LOL
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
I am a civilian and I was talking to my concealed carry instructor and he just laughed when I told him about this forum.
He said there is no way you could convince a judge that you were defending yourself from a threat at 50 yds away.
So all the talk about flat shooting, accurate handguns is not an issue in Minnesota.
What I want is something to defend against home invasion. Which would be a twelve gauge or a second choice would be a 45 acp
I will start the pop corn.
whelennut Still stuck on stupid, and doubling down on it.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
"How would being able to shoot longer distances with a hand gun have helped?"
The ability to shoot in a precise manner, targeting one of the above described areas, should be self evident.
Giving up because you "only have a handgun" and the range is beyond the "magical/typical average 3 yards" is really not an option for a determined defender.
BTW, I sure as hell don't want to rely on just being in a statistically "average" fight.
Personally I know a whole bunch of guys who if they only had their issued handgun and a bad guy started shooting people, or shooting at them, with a rifle, they would not even slightly hesitate to get into the fight.
The objective still remains the same. Close with, engage and destroy the enemy/neutralize the threat, utilizing the concept of speed, surprise, and violence of action.
If you choose to give up and die because you are engaged by a person with a rifle, or you are leaking fluid somewhere, that is your prerogative. To each their own.
I have had my bell rung more than a couple times in a fight, I did not just curl up and call it quits.
whelennut, pay attention.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,718
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,718 |
He's had 14 months to think about his stupid post. Maybe he's reconsidered stance since then..........or maybe his laughing instructor has.
Doubt it though........
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 12,022
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 12,022 |
It bears repeating: when the feces hits the fan you will do what you were trained to do. If you weren't trained to deal with dynamic, fluid, ever-changing situations where you have to make split second decisions, you'll just stand there and get shot. If you didn't train to deal with a such a deadly force encounter you will do what you trained to do - nothing.
It's amazing, then, that so many armed Americans who aren't trained to a particularly high level, manage to come out on top against armed bad guys every year. How many concealed carry citizens come out on top, as you put it, against bad guys who probably have more training just dodging rounds from rival gangs on the way home? How many? Homicide is a relatively rare crime when you compare it to other crimes, and I'd bet all I have that 95% of the homicides come from the inner-cities, and are black on black shootings. If you don't train to do anything, then when the schite hits the fan that's what you'll - nothing but get shot and die. This isn't a debate. It's well documented that training saves lives. I taught pursuit driving too. I had at least one deputy a month come to me and describe a situation wherein he steered and accelerated and steered out through a possible vehicular collision, and came out the other side, on the road, untouched with no memory of how he did it. They did it because I drilled them and drilled them and drilled them in evasive lane change and running the highway course. We used the same reasoning to go to a hot range and the building of our own little "Hogan's Alley".
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
Pistol shooters would do well to quit thinking of their shots in terms of distance. It's not distance that matters, it's the difficulty of the shot.
Yes, most 50 yard shots are difficult. But not all of them. And most 3 yard shots are easy. But not all of them.
Splitting a bullet on an axe blade at 7 yards requires about the same amount of (or a bit more) sight focus and trigger control as a 50 yard shot on a torso.
Being accurate at 50 yards is about your ability to shoot, which is a different topic than the legitimacy of a 50 yard defensive shot. Dismissing the former, because of the latter, is likely done because you can't perform the former.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,111
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,111 |
Where you been? Nice your back.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
Thanks. I don't know how "back" I am, just logged on to answer some PMs. It got too dramatic around here for a while. Maybe it'll calm down now that an (R) is in office, lol.
I don't mind a spirited debate, or even a good argument, but both of those can be done without all the bitterness that has come to dominate this site. Rick's unmoderation will keep his ad revenue flowing in, but eventually the good guys will get fed up with having to wade through it all. IMO, anyway.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,321
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,321 |
Please don't confuse me with someone who has a knowledgeable opinion. However, I've been wading through this conversation, and I am still stumped as to how a guy like me is going to get himself into a situation where a 50 yard shot from my conceal carry pistol is going to save my life. I can understand how it might save someone else's. I can understand how a law enforcement officer would need to take one. I'm trying to think of a scenario where I would be making a shot in self-defence at that distance and I'm coming up short.
Let me use Walmart as an example.
1) If I see a fellow armed with a pistol in the parking lot at 50 yards, my first instinct isn't to start shooting. I'm going to get low and put as many vehicles between us as possible. If the shooter wants me, he's going to have to find me first.
2) Inside the store, it's kind of like Reagan's story about the bear. I don't have to outrun the bear, just outrun the people around me. In this case, I just have to be less of a target than the other people in the store. I'm going low and moving towards the exit in the opposite direction from the shooter.
Outside of town, I can understand. However, when I'm outside of town I'm either carrying a 357 mag Lever action or a 357 mag single action revolver and my main motivation is 4-legged coyotes, not 2-legged ones. When I'm out and about on the farm, I'm the perp. I'm the aggressor. Things need to avoid me, not the other way around.
Going back to the OP, I got similar advice from our CC instructor. It was not worded the same way. I don't mean to say a judge in Cincinnati would rule out a 50 yard shot in self defence, simply because of the distance. What I mean to say is that my instructor wanted me to stop worrying about well-aimed shots and concentrate on putting rounds into the target.
My point in posting is to simply ask y'all when I'm in town and carrying concealed, when would a 50-yard shot be the best way to save my own skin?
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
An Active Shooter targets you from 65yds away.
He is closing distance.
You are behind adequate cover.
Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
Blue,
Don't quit on me. Don't quit on us.
Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
Please don't confuse me with someone who has a knowledgeable opinion. However, I've been wading through this conversation, and I am still stumped as to how a guy like me is going to get himself into a situation where a 50 yard shot from my conceal carry pistol is going to save my life. I can understand how it might save someone else's. I can understand how a law enforcement officer would need to take one. I'm trying to think of a scenario where I would be making a shot in self-defence at that distance and I'm coming up short.
Let me use Walmart as an example.
1) If I see a fellow armed with a pistol in the parking lot at 50 yards, my first instinct isn't to start shooting. I'm going to get low and put as many vehicles between us as possible. If the shooter wants me, he's going to have to find me first.
2) Inside the store, it's kind of like Reagan's story about the bear. I don't have to outrun the bear, just outrun the people around me. In this case, I just have to be less of a target than the other people in the store. I'm going low and moving towards the exit in the opposite direction from the shooter.
Outside of town, I can understand. However, when I'm outside of town I'm either carrying a 357 mag Lever action or a 357 mag single action revolver and my main motivation is 4-legged coyotes, not 2-legged ones. When I'm out and about on the farm, I'm the perp. I'm the aggressor. Things need to avoid me, not the other way around.
Going back to the OP, I got similar advice from our CC instructor. It was not worded the same way. I don't mean to say a judge in Cincinnati would rule out a 50 yard shot in self defence, simply because of the distance. What I mean to say is that my instructor wanted me to stop worrying about well-aimed shots and concentrate on putting rounds into the target.
My point in posting is to simply ask y'all when I'm in town and carrying concealed, when would a 50-yard shot be the best way to save my own skin?
Do you ONLY go in public places by yourself and never with a loved one/family member? Are said loved ones/family members ALWAYS right next to you?
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
I just re-read this thread and I have to say two things.
1.) I crack me up.
2.) There are some stupid fugking people walking this earth. I mean really, really fugking stupid people.
Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,774
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,774 |
Could you really leave an active shooter when you are armed. I don't know what I would do, no one does untill in that situation. That said, if I was armed, and ran, it would haunt me.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
Could you really leave an active shooter when you are armed. I don't know what I would do, no one does untill in that situation. That said, if I was armed, and ran, it would haunt me. You only need to be able to outrun the 4 year old next to you.....
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,321
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,321 |
An Active Shooter targets you from 65yds away.
He is closing distance.
You are behind adequate cover.
Dave My first reaction would be to try and make it 100+ yards, and from there, try to leave that end of the county as quickly as possible. I see what you're saying. I can see a scenario where I get caught in an open parking lot, and I have to duck behind the nearest light pole. The next nearest pole is 25 yards away. However, if the shooter is really intent on shooting me, he's going to have to close the distance. If I have good cover, he's toast. He's at least going to get a close enough miss that he'll rethink his intentions. Although I can see this as a possibility, I don't see it as a probable scenario given my habits. I've outlived all the jealous husbands and wacky girlfriends that might have wanted to ambush me. I'm more worried about the three beggars I had to deal with while I was getting gas the other day. I'm more worried about the fellow who walks up to me looking for directions. I've got enough threats inside 3 yards than worry about outside 50. I'd be the first to admit that YMMV.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
I hope everyone hasn't already forgotten the Denton TX cop who took out TWO muslim terrorists armed with carbines and body armor. Pretty much the scenario we're discussing here.
It was reported that the cop used his pistol to win the fight (that he was given) while out-numbered and out-gunned. I can't testify that this cop is a great 50yd shooter, but I wouldn't want to bet against it.
Mindset, tactics, skill. The officer responded with all three. ....Garland, Tx....he was a MotorJock.
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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