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G, I am jealous but you've earned it!


Someday...

My observations have been the same.There are reasons for it IMO.

At what distance does it happen? I dunno. It depends on too many things.

All the conversation on here taken as truthful, which one do I want in my hands with a long sought permit,or expensive hunt on the line,and a big bull elk across a canyon? I'll take the 300 because that's what I have used in those situations.

IMHO,no 308 is capable,ballistically,of hanging with a 300 magnum,even with today's "technology",which benefits both.In the end this is physics,and you don't revoke those rules.

That ain't gunna be a pleasant handling rifle. I'd rather a rifle with balance than outright light weight from a practical persepctive. A few ounces here or there is never going to change the course of a hunt. However, i hant a lot of heavily forested areas, and i can tell you rifle handling and balance really can make a difference in that environment. Heavy barrels and actions in lightweight stocks just don't "point".

I think the secret to a good lightweight rifle is to take a bit of weight out of everything, rather than just slimming down one part of the rifle. The weight loss has to be proportional.

Sounds nice in theory....does not work that way.They point like shotguns.Not to blow my own horn,but as an example of how totally "wrong" the assessment is......I have shot quite a few whitetails,and mule deer with such rifles that were not only on the move,but provided fleeting chances..... the last two years ago,a pretty good mule deer at about 75 yards on a full stot.I had little time to react(when I hit him he was in mid leap over a canyon rim. From my angle I did not know this.).A companion 50-60 yards away saw this happen and he figures I had very little time...about like a shot at a grouse in cover.

The shot could not be made with an ill balanced rifle,which is why I don't understand how people can make theoretical comments about the "balance" of a rifle they have neither handled,nor shot,nor killed anything with...and don't own either....more Internet "guessing".

FormiD: Yes I get what you are saying...a variable can be tricky unless you glue yourself to one power and learn the scope....and the reticle is of a style that it's useful for this sort of thing.I could soin a tale about a very big, lifetime type non-typical mule deer in southwest Colorado that got clean missed because my pal(an otherwise good shot)twisted the varible up before taking a good close look at 4X to gauge distance.....that "closer look" told his brain "300 yards",and he shot clear under him....

Again I can't suggest it is anywhere near as precise as a what we have today,and in using that system, I think it became as much intuitive as anything.....kind of like muscle memory as an animal looked "too small" through the scope.Years of peeping through a fixed power scope and a constant sight picture would keep you from making some serious errors in the field as to estimating distance.We did not have the technology to get us over the rough spots.

This is likely why I have yet to kill an elk(or anything else) past 500 yards or so as the style seems not so useful much past that.....I do recall that the bottom post of a 4X Leupold corresponds to a 600 yard POI when a 7mm mag or a 300 mag and the right loads,was zeroed 3" high at 100 I know this having shot both many times;so even then, we were using a reticle assist to hit beyond PBR,but of course not as refined as now..

I recall one bull elk where I lay behind the trigger for a half hour,and he filled a bit over 1/2 of the gap of a 4X; I figured him at between 550-600 yards across a big canyon....only a very strong wind kept me from killing him that day.I would not risk the shot in that wind.I am not into "guessing"....

With items like the 25/06-120,270-130,7 mag-160, I like 3" high at 100.Such zero puts me POA at 275-300 yards.

A top of the back hold will easily drop a bullet into the chest of deer sized game at 400 yards.From 20 feet to 300 yards hold center of chest.On elk, you are still holding on hair.You can shade slightly at 175-200 and still kill neatly.

This is fast,very uncomplicated;and very useful when a big mule deer buck is slithering through oak brush,distance constantly changing,across a canyon,or a bull elk is moving through screening cover and turning 200 yards into 400 in seconds;or a rutting whitetail buck is hustling across a cut line at 300 yards.

It also works in the woods at under 100,since you are about an inch high at 50 yards, if that...

You might overshoot a coyote at 175 if you don't hold low,but I don't care about coyotes when hunting BG.

This can be modified somewhat with faster stepping magnums or very high BC bullets at magnum velocity,which seem to show more mid range;or for varmints....again, different ball game.

Dots and turrets take over past 400....for me,to that distance or less,they aren't needed.

Safariman: Yes I have seen some times when I got that impression...and then something or several things have happened that made me more confused about the whole cartridge/bore diameter thing than I was before..... This is nerve racking!But I try to keep an open mind which is hard sometimes.

One of the fastest black bear kills I have had was with a 280 Remington and a 140 Bitterroot at about 80 yards(he weighed about 300 pounds later on scales); no running gear involved, pure rib/lungs/rib,but the bear was down to the shot and never got up...among many we shot, two of the toughest recoveries came from bears hit a smidge far back with a 340 Weatherby and a 257 Roberts.....

Three companions spread out in an oak brush canyon on an elk hunt we were on....and by good fortune they each got cracks at bulls...These were not really long range shots, maybe in the 250-350 yard range,and when the melee was over all 3 elk were dead.Funny thing was one was armed with a 340 Weatherby, another with a 300 Win Mag, and the third a 7 Rem mag.....I carried a 300 mag a lot in those days, either Winchester or Weatherby,and used both with good success...another bull on another hunt,gave me a bit of a problem with a 300 Weatherby.I chased him down and killed him,jumping him from his bed,injured but still very much alive.

There are more of these "experiences" but these come to mind...

In reconciling this stuff over the years,it dawned on me that the biggest single factor that made things go from "simple" to "rodeo",and distinguished these experiences,was...... bullet placement . I noticed that the truly spectacular kills, with any of the cartridges, depended on putting a good bullet in pretty exactly the right spot.

It makes sense to me that certain bullets (not all) of 30,338,358 and 375 caliber of heavier weight,tougher construction,and greater cross sectionl areas, should do a better job of breaking heavy bones,tearing up more flesh and tissue,and creating more trauma,than smaller calibers..(if this were not true,we'd shoot Cape Buffalo with 243's)...but it also seems that some (not all) bullets of (say) 6.5, 270, and 7mm,also do a good job at this stuff,and while they may lack the weight of the bigger stuff,their construction lets them inflict enough wounding capability to overwhelm the life support systems of a pretty wide range of game animals,if properly placed.

Bullet placement and construction seem to be the equalizers,and the shooters ability to direct a bullet where it needs to go is paramount,whether,from a big cartridge or a smaller one...the reason I don't get too excited anymore over the "differences" between a (for example)270 and a 280AI or 30/06.

For some shooters, excessive recoil gets in the way of the placement equation;and some have the "bigger is better" mentality but at the same time do not have the training and practice levels to extract full value from a bigger, heavier recoiling rifle..They mistakenly buy the bigger cartridge,and expect dramatic results,even if they can't shoot it well(They also frequently kid themselves about their ability to do so)......these are the guys in search of magical effect from rifles and cartridges, thinking the magic is in the caliber,the headstamp,and the power...it isn't. It's in the bullets, and where they go that matters most.

I think this is why you saw what you saw,and what many of us have seen over the years. My 2 cents....

My elk experience pales in comparison to Dober's.....that said, I can give the non-resident perspective on bullets...and this from someone who does not live where the elk live, never get to see them except when I travel west; and for whom an elk hunt anywhere is a time consuming,and therefore, expensive event,whether in time, or moola.....

First off, when you start to plan that first hunt, you do not know what works...you rely on advise....some of it good, and some bad. Some from people with lots of elk experience, and some from people with none.

Plus you may have grown up having to endure the contradictory writings of JOC and Elmer Keith. So you wonder "Just how tough are these damned animals?" ...

So,in cartridges, we want to ere on the large side.....with boolits,we are comfortable with "more than good"....

Plus,with so many bullets,you would have to have the income of a Goldman Sachs Senior VP under Obama to gain the experience with enough of them to draw an objective conclusion....what I am getting at is a conscientious guy wants to do a good job, does not want to look like a shmuck when the moment of truth arrives and your guide or local pal is screaming "SHOOT!" and you have this 700-800 pound animal that is far larger than anything you have ever seen......plus, he is across a canyon far enough that,even to your untrained eyes and despite his size....,he looks like a fly climbing a wall across a room.To compound troubles,he is sorta quartering away.....

So,when it came time to get an elk rifle(not realizing I already had one..),I split the baby between JOC and Keith,and listened to Bob Hagel....I screwed a 10 twist 24" Krieger barrel into a pre 64 H&H action,chambered it for 300 Win Mag, and used Nosler Partitions,and Bitterroots...cause Bob said to.....this was followed soon by a 300 Weatherby with the same components, and then a 300H&H.The elk bounced so hard their molars cracked....

As I went on more elk hunts with more people, I noticed the locals were more lax about bullets and cartridges...100 gr Silvertips from 250 Savage,25/06 with 120 Corelokts,270's with 130 Sierra's,30/06 with PP's,7 mags with BT's,300 mags and Hornady's,etc etc.I traced the wound channels to find things out...from obviously dead elk....so I know guys like Dober and Flinch, are right.....and the learning process continues....

Since I don't have the income of a Goldman Sachs VP,and still have to travel 4000 miles round trip to see an elk,and know in my limited experiences what has worked for me, my elk cartridges are and will be,loaded with Partitions and BBC's...not because they are the only answer, but because I know,personally, what happens to elk when these bullets hit them.

Just the perspective of a non-resident elk hunter...I defer to the guys who know what else works,have lived among the elk and have shot more of them than I have....

SLM: Actually not a real lot of bulls per day.It was pretty tough.....

We hunted in January....after the rut hunts, after the tribal hunts, etc....and elk were scattered over 1.5 million acres,ie about the size of Rhode Island.They were timbered up and thinly scattered over big country.

This was back in January 1990 IIRC,when the place was managed a bit differently and there were not quite so many elk I suspect,although I don't know exactly what it is like today.

Back then,few knew about the place,it was yet "undiscovered' or not so well known,and it was very uncrowded,but the hunts poorly organized, and the "guides" were,well......not really knowledgeable, but required by tribal law.It was frustrating because I constantly had to prod information from mine.He knew little of elk and elk hunting and was there to keep me from getting lost and that's about "it".I was pretty much on my own with him. I am certain things are much improved today.

I never did kill a bull....after 9-10 days of hard work and covering ground from Malay Gap to the Dry Lake,on foot, truck and horseback, I found the kind of bull you go there to see.....he was way across a yawning canyon at about 600 yards, near as I could tell using the scope to gauge distance(pre-LRF).I felt I could deal with the distance but not the wind which was full value and leaning Ponderosa pines over that day.I did not want to wound him.

I crossed the canyon,which took two hours,got within 50-60 yards of him,but blew him out of his bed in the heavy oak brush.I can still see those antlers above the oak brush.

He was far larger than any elk I had ever seen...he made any 350 class bull I had previously seen look "ordinary"..likely he would have grossed book with room to spare.

Not long after that hunt, the place "took off",became prohibitively expensive;I have not been back.What it is like today I can't say.....but true monsters live there, no doubt.

The place also has a population of very big Coues deer.I was fascinated with the country and the reservation.It is quite a place.

I have noticed that when your boot soles are hanging over thin air on this side of the canyon.....and the elk is on the other side...it is kinda tough to stalk on thin air,except through the forces of divine intervention.

Hiking down one side, and up the other to get closer,is an option,of course....but things rarely look the same when you get there,as the screening cover and folds in the land that were not apparent before, suddenly make them selves known;you do your best,but elk are smarter than us.....ask me how I know.I can still see a B&C elk rack making rooster tails of oak brush leaves and twigs after he detected me at 40 yards,after I hiked over, instead of shooting from the far canyon.

This does not mean we have tacit license to shoot wildly,and beyond sure kill distance for us.....but the ability to hit effectively at distance can be a hunt saver,and is a perfectly legitimate part of the hunt.Let your conscience and skill sets guide you

I always get in trouble when I start "comparing" cartridges....and going through the excrutiating, mind-numbing process of discerning tiny differences; but to some degree this is inevitable because there are so many of them and I think AGW hit the nail squarely when he implied that the range of animals we mostly hunt pretty easily succumb to most of them...(at least I think that is what he was saying).

Cartridge discussions tend to eventually come around to "numbers", and bullistic tables,and I think in our minds this tends to make us think that 200-300 ft lbs more or less of energy,or 4-6" more or less of drop or wind drift are really significant and make one thing "better" or superior to the other...(the 270 vs 280 discussions come to mind;Good Grief!)..these discussions tend to create a rift between theory and reality.

And one of the biggest mistakes I see guys make(particulalrly younger, inexperienced hunters)is buying/choosing rifles and cartridges based on "power",in the mistaken belief that bigger is better,and this cartridge or that will make up for careless and indifferent bullet placement....this rarely works very well.

...but in a practical sense this all falls by the wayside when you watch a 350 pound mule deer absolutely flattened by a 270 or a 280 across a canyon 300-400 yards away...or, the same thing happens when you use a 30/06,7x57,or 7mm Rem Mag. "Comparisons" become hard to justify.....

You begin to develop a deeper appreciation for the enormous destructive capability you are holding in your mitts with any of them....or the circus that ensues if you don't point a 300 magnum or 338 Win Mag or 375H&H correctly at a bull elk or brown bear...or the way any of them cause animals to simply whither if you use a good bullet and put it in the right place.

In the end, rifles and rifle cartridges are simply launching pads for bullets....bullets do the killing,and since the rifles have to be "driven" by human beings,the two have to be housed together in a platform that is reasonably comfortable for the driver....it can't weigh too much or too little;it can't recoil excessively or accuracy suffers;it has to be transportable,and capable of being fired accurately from a host of field positions,and all these characteristics are going to be different from one person to the next.....yet the bullets fired in it have to be adequately heavy and of proper construction to be lethal on the intended game(opinions vary here),and started at high enough velocity for adequately flat trajectory to assist in good bullet placement and terminal effect.

For example, I used to be a huge fan of various 300 magnums(still am!)...I found them flat shooting (important to me),powerful,versatile,and with long reach,and the bullets suited to a wide range of game animals.I shot and hunted with them a lot,and at various times had a 300 Weatherby, 300 Win Mag, and 300 H&H.... all at the same time! ,which of course is nuts but doing too much "comparing" will lead to these silly results....I think the 300's are splendid.I had similar overlap having 270's, 280's,7x57's and 7/08's,etc.

But over time,I used the 300's less and less,and today own none.....why?....because as a platform,they had to be heavier than I like if recoil was to be kept in check,making them less comfy to lug around in mountains....barrels too long in order to burn great gobs of powder,making them a bit unhandy in the brush...you get the picture.

Rather than tell you what I don't like, I'll say what I do like,this for the general run of big game,and I'll be specific.YMMV

I like the 270,280,7x57,and 30/06.I like any of these in a rifle of app 6.5 to 7.5 pounds with a 22" barrel.I have used the the 270 and 30/06 the most,but I'd be happy with any of them.

As something of a step up in bullet weight and/or trajectory and velocity, I like the 7RM,and (recently)the 7mm Mashburn,because I like the moderate recoil,high velocity with heavy 7mm bullets,flat trajectory,and relatively modest powder consumption in a rifle weighing 7.5-8 pounds.I'm aware of the (sometimes) abherrant behaviour of the 7RM but have owned so many I know how to build one that works well,and what to realistically expect of the cartridge.The Mashburn seems to pick up where the 7RM leaves off,without being "excessive".There are no flies on a 175 gr 7mm bullet at almost 3100 fps.....Both cartridges seem to kick less than the normal 300 magnum;shoot just as flat.Do they kill as well? You answer that..... I know some very experienced hunters who think so...

If I were a short action maven(I'm not)I like the 7mm WSM and the 300 WSM.

In a flea weight 5 pound rifle I would take a 7/08 over anything else.

In anything below 270 caliber I'll take a light 257 Roberts,without regard to whether a 6.5 or 6mm would be "better". That said I plan to build a 6XC for paper punching and varmint hunting,but it will be a heavier rifle.

Above 30 caliber I don't have much use for anything except an 8 pound 375H&H....

Above 375 I really don't know.I have fired 416's and 458's and regard both as specialized tools for pro's or others who might have to stop large beasts at rock throwing distances.If I lived in Africa and hunted there a lot I would have one of these.

This an interesting thread,and there is little in the above two posts I can find to disagree with....at least I can understand pretty much where Dober and ULA are coming from.YMMV.

First let's dispense with the "class envy" nonsense because IME trophy hunters can come from all walks of life,and all sorts of income levels,and whether your "expenditures" amount to "time and sweat equity", or "cash" or both,your objectives are the same...ditto whether the objective is a Marco Polo ram, or an out sized mule deer or elk in a once in a lifetime unit....unless you get really "lucky",you will not kill an exceptional male animal anywhere without a big dose of effort, money, or both...I know some good trophy hunters....none of them are "lucky";and most cannot stroke big checks....

You are looking for a rare opportunity at an animal that you may never have the chance to kill again.That chance may come after a week to two weeks(or more if you have taken repeat trips for the same species)of hard hunting and you may have in the process passed up several to dozens of animals that might not live up to your standards.

Large males of a species are rare,tend to be pretty elusive creatures, and do not provide the highest percentage of set up shots that lesser males do.Anyone who has spent any time looking for even a mature, outsized whitetail buck or mule deer or blacktail knows this very well...if they were at all easy, many folks would have taken scads of them,have walls full of them, and we know that is not the case.They also "behave" differently from the lesser males and females of a species...if a hunter does not immediately recognize this, he has really not spent much time trying to kill one,on purpose.

Set up shots will be rare,they will be encountered briefly,and adjacent to rough and or thick country and at unknown distances, frequently with mere seconds to react and get off a shot...opportunities may be fleeting.

So regardless of species, we are dealing with something very hard to find that will be very elusive, not far froms creening cover or rough country,with little time to get it done

We all know intuitively or through experience that rifles chambered for standard cartridges will kill these same animals very well under normal circumstances.....we also know intuitively that when distances are long,a case of larger capacity propels heavier bullets at higher velocity than standard cases.There is no mystery to any of this...it's just physics.

Shot angles may be difficult, distances long,or very short, or anywhere in between.By this I am not suggesting ass-shooting anything,nor shooting beyond your limitations. What I am suggesting is that, so long as a guy can manage it, there may be some advantage to soemthing like a 300 Weatherby shooting a 200 gr bullet, to a 308 shooting a 165; or a 7 mag fo some variety using a a 175 gr bullet over (say) a 7/08 with a 140.

Both the bigger cases can be zeroed for a longer PBR than the smaller cartridges;the heavier bullets,given similar construction may penetrate deeper and anchor heavy game with more authority.Both these things may come in pretty handy when the bull elk or outlandish mule deer you've been looking for on that rare Arizona permit shows up 400-500 yards across a canyon after 8-10 days of hard hunting;and you have under 10 seconds to kill or he is gone...it has happened to me more than once,and at such times a lot of the ballistic debates go out the window.

It may be more about the Indian than the arrow, but it's equally true that there are differences in arrows;and the Indian with the bigger arrow might hold the very narrowest of advantages under very adverse conditions,which is all we are really talking about here.....

I never blame people for being a bit overgunned in anticipation of such circumstances, if they can honestly manage the rifle,and everyone has to make that honest determination for himself based on his own shooting and hunting experiences and extensive practice.

Saddlesore, seems I recall a picture of a very nice bull you killed in a limited draw unit a couple years ago....

Congrats! Ego? In your case I doubt it.....but even if I thought so, I wouldn't say it.

Are you any more proud of that animals than I am of the one's I've killed? I doubt it.

Pay and pull a trigger? Never been on a hunt like that....about half my western hunts have been DYI; the other half outfitted.My experience has been that in many instances, guides were not much help at all.....sometimes a great deal of help.

Not everyone who pays to hunt strolls into a fenced canyon and rolls a bull.....some of us actually "hunt".

Yeah it costs me a lot of money even unguided,to hunt the west each year and I am not gonna apologize to anyone for it because I have tried to do it cheaply and it STILL costs lots of money...I have to get there and back, pay for meals trespass fees where applicable,etc;some places I pay nothing at all,processing game and getting it home.,etc.

Some of my best hunts have been the cheapest ones.....

I'm also self employed...so time away costs me in lost income PLUS the cost of the hunt....double whammy.

Do I do it because of ego? No....I do it because I love it,and have been for over 30 years.....So do many others.....If you guys don't know the difference,then you don't like to hunt half as much as I suspected you did.

If I lived there it would be different....but I don't and neither do thousands of others who hunt guided and unguided,all over the world.

What annoys me is people criticisizing other people because of where they live, grew up,and what they have to do to hunt in distant locales...painting everyone with a broad brush and its' never complimentary....directed toward belittling others to make themselves feel somehow....superior...THAT's ego....

I understand where Ramblin Razorback is coming from insofar as new technology is concerned, but would argue a bit that the technology has not taken us quite that far yet;and the notion that people are just now getting around to killing elk with smaller calibers is somewhat erroneous....and insofar as Bob Hagel being "wrong"when it comes to elk cartridges.....well the animals have not changed at all;neither have the general conditions under which they are shot.

And "yes"velocity is still important,and so is flat trajectory because the elk are not targets, nor steel gongs that wait patiently while you sort things out with a rangefinder.Not that they aren't very useful,but I think some common sense should apply,because they don't always "work",nor is there always time, and then you are back to the old ways and you better know how to handle it or don't shoot.

So I would think long and hard before tossing anything Hagel had to say out in the trash;as if the current crop of writers have something over him and his advise,which they don't......as he likely had a lot more experience actually killing big bull elk than many gunwriters around today(not all, but many).

Clear back to the antideluvian 80's I recall diggin around elk carcasses to find the spent 100 gr bullets fired into elk for pretty quick, sure kills with the 250 Savage and 257 Roberts to assess damage.A 243 is not going to do anything these two don't do....

I had the same opportunity on elk I shot myself,and many more shot by others.....and the difference between what a 30 cal or 7mm or 338 does to them,and what is done by the smaller cartridges is of 6mm isdistinguishable and substantive in terms of penetration, wound channels, ability to break bone and drive through heavy muscle.A 6mm 100 gr bullet is still a 6mm 100 gr bullet,and regardless of the technology applied,(which does nothing more than effect rate of expansion and depth of penetration)it is only capable of doing"so much";there is no magic imbued by the technology, even today,or at least not as much as many would beleive reading some stuff on here.

And there is a world of difference between sniping a yearling cow that has wondered into a hay meadow in the open;and dealing with a big herd bull across some brush filled Idaho canyon that's steep as a chalet roof where one jump puts him in the jungle,or having to kill him at a tough angle on your side of the same canyon in thick timber.She will be far lighter,in the open,can be shot "just so",and likely won't get out of sight before she falls.The big bull will be far larger, have heavier bone and muscle,and while he can be killed with the 243 there are just better tools for the job,even within the given recoil constraints,say a 260 or 6.5x55.

Here, the OP is looking for a cartridge for his GF;likely a less experienced shooter with recoil considerations and wants to keep her on a cartridge with which she is comfortable and shoots well,so those are the constraints.But that still doesn't make it the best choice, or even a particularly good one,and I'd be inclined to graduate her to at least a 6.5 of some sort,which will kick mildly but throw a bit more flack in the form of more bullet weight. I've put a 14 year old girl on a 270 and had her throwing strikes at 300 yards the first time out....the experience was so much fun for her that she wanted to do it again.

So in my very humble opinion, I'd say load the best,toughly constructed bullet he can get,get the elk in the right position,and everything should be fine.For others without the constraints,I'd say they should listen pretty carefully to what Hagel had to say about elk cartridges.Internet theory and what happens in the hunting fields rarely jive.

Do enough hunting and eventually you will run into one of those "do or die" situations where it is impossible or impractical to get closer.It might be that you are married to the tree stand,and you know leaving it will mean the buck will not be there or is unapproachable.So the ability to hit well at long distance can save your bacon.Back here in the northeast I've had that happen at about 300 yards,and at 380 yards.

Or it could be like someone already said,where conditions of terrain or circumstances preclude closing distances,because your feet are hanging over a cliff with nothing but canyon below them,so it's either shoot from where you are,or climb over there to ambush.I've done it both ways.

Many assume that because you can "see" a long ways in much western country that game will always be taken at great distance,but this is not always true.Much western country has a lot of relief and contour,and frequently this can be used to mask a sneak,and get within certain range.

What constitutes "long range" has more to do with the skill,experience, judgement,preparation,and discretion of the shooter than the gear he carries, I think.

I know some people for whom long range is the distance at which they have never fired a rifle,and know quite a few who own 300 magnums and have never shot them at over 200 yards.For them, shooting beyond that distance would be the same as me entering a NASCAR race after practicing with VW Bug.

As mule deer points out above guided hunts run the gamut.....I've been on numerous guided hunts,and at least as many unguided;some on public land and some on a mix of public and private.None of them were what I would call a "slam dunk" in termes of getting game,except that if I wanted to shoot "any buck", I certainly could have;but being selective on some of these hunts I worked pretty hard,and frequently came home with an unpunched tag.

One of my two largest mule deer was killed, unguided,but only after 8 days on the mountain and having passed on a good many decent 4x4's before I busted a big NT out of a canyon at the top of the mountain.Another big one was killed on a guided hunt but I was very much alone when I got him.

In northern Canada where I hunt mule deer,I have been technically "guided" but the reality is I am dropped off each day to work out the river breaks on my own,on foot.....and on one memorable elk hunt on a 1.5 million acre resrevation(the size of Rhode Islad)I had a guide with meto help me find my way around but the "hunting was done by me as the "guide" knew little of hunting elk or anything else.He did keep me from getting lost,though.I saw the biggest bull of my life,did not get him,came home "empty",and lost 15 pounds in 10-12 days of hard hunting...I would classify that hunt as "fair chase"..

So generalizations about guided hunts are very hard to pin down and I have never been on a guided hunt where I was not expected to contribute to the deal in some material way,and guides are certainly no guarantee that you will be at all successful.Some can be rocking-chair easy,but on many I have had to work pretty hard for what I got.

I prefer it this way and will not look twice at a hunt pitched as a "guarantee".

bigwhoop:A 500 yard mule deer was previously wounded by a companion...I administered the coup de grace.

The other two kills at that distance were both elk,and there was no route for a closer opportunity...it was do or die from there,but I was comfy with those shots,having shot a good deal to that distance and beyond..conditions were good and I had prepared for the contingency.It worked out OK.

Conversely, I have walked away from a pretty large buck at 550(lazed);too late in the day to risk it;....and the biggest elk I will likely ever have a crack at in AZ;distance was 550-600 but the wind was howling....I passed and spent two hours crossing the canyon,closed to about 50 yards,and could not get a shot through the oak brush.....he was an easy B&C candidate and I'm certain he's dead by now...but it was not meant to be for me that day.

Scott thanks for posting!

These bucks were all taken last week in Wyoming.John's buck is the top one, a heavy,old 3x3 which I think is really cool.We caught him on a brushy hillside at about 400 yards,and John killed him with a M70 Classic in 280 Remington.Load was a Federal factory 140 TSX.

Next two pics are the buck I killed....Matt spotted this buck from long range in a patch of buckbrush on a high plateau which dropped off into a series of draws and canyons on the backside.Matt and I went after him,and got within 80 yards or so.....he came barreling by me at about 70 yards through the brush,on the run.

With about two seconds to size things up before he got down into the canyon, I killed him with an off-hand shot at about 70 yards.He was hit through the spine behind the shoulders,and collapsed at the shot.

The third buck was killed by Matt.We spotted this buck maybe 700-800 yards away,10 minutes after I had killed mine.I looked the buck over quickly;saw good frame and a large body and suggested Matt go after him....Matt took off down through the country,flopped prone at 380 yards,and killed him in 3 shots.

Both Matt and I used pre 64 M70 FW's in 270 Win;load was the 130 Partition and 61-H4831.His rifle had a Bansner stock and 2-7 Leupold.Mine a McMillan Compact Edge and 2.5-8 Leupold.Everything worked fine,as expected.

All three bucks were aged at 5 1/2 years old or older, which was nice. Overall I think we did pretty good!A little luck sure doesn't hurt!

Funny post.

You don't really expect anyone to believe that the price difference between a $800 M70 and a $300 Savage POS will keep anyone from going on a hunt do you?

In a day and age when these luminaries spend $150 a month on a cell phone, the idea that a $800 dollar rifle (one time expenditure) is too expensive, is laughable.

Or that "smart" guys" are scraping the bottom of the equipment barrel with a cheap rifle and likely topping it with a blister pack scope,is an expression of sage wisdom. Hilarious.

Who exactly cares about keeping a hunting rifle brand new and how is that a factor?

I see these miracle millennials at the range with their cheap rifles,and they are neither great shots, astute riflemen,and tend to be rookies who don't know what they are doing.

If the cost spread between a M70 and an RAR is keeping you from hunting you need a more lucrative job....but don't expect me to believe you're some kind of sage/wise genius. That's ridiculous.

This class envy stuff cracks me up but otherwise intelligent people fall for it all the time.

What a sad human being.

Don't be too hard on Bob, I know it goes against you c&nt instinct.

That would be "your cunnt instinct."

Drunkenness is a genuine impairment for you as we both know.

It seems that many deem a "serious" hunter to be one who travels the world killing all kinds of game.

Just trying to figure out how you did that....

I do like to think that I "earn" it. Almost all my hunting is DIY on low-fenced/no fences ranches in Texas.

...It is high fenced. I did not go.

I chose not to, because I am not a high fence hunter,GWB

A guy that stays out all day on stand w/a pocket full of jerky and a thermos of water. When he hunts he is focused and single minded. When he comes home he is a Husband and Father. powdr