Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing What Products to Strip Browning High Gloss Finish?

Now to the video which did exactly what I expected.

First, the job was not done as directed and could not have been done in the allotted time, period. Even using the butcher hack job.

Second, the assumption that it would result in a "workmanlike" finish ready for sandpaper was far from met.

Third, showing the orbital sander was just gravy for my claim.

On the first point the finish was not removed completely even on the one side. Those areas take quite a bit more time, done properly. No area was brought to a "sandpaper ready" condition.

On the second point there are many points that need to be made starting with Gnoahh's point about the dings on every knife stroke inception. Listen to the video, you can hear them being made.

The bullshit that he does not make them is laughable. The reason fine cabinetmakers use light metal scrapers is due to their inertia. If a heavy knife is moving when brought into contact with a surface, especially at a long angle to its travel it absolutely will make a mark every time.

A scraper uses a turned burr on the edge which does several things, but most notably it reduces the possible depth of the starting cut and the amount of clean-up one has to do.

Suggesting the sanding out can be done in a few minutes is ridiculous. As he mentioned in the video, he should have had his glasses on.

A scraper should be placed carefully on the wood and started slowly while standing the burr into the work... done by experts there will still be some chatter and a starting mark. We were not watching an expert.

Anyone that has every removed a finish from wood realizes the finish is on the wood and IN the wood. The finish in the wood was never addressed. That finish is going to make a really special bit of fun with an oil finish unless it is somehow dealt with. Sanding it out without a block will be "special."

Third, any stockmaker that puts an orbital sander on a stock with relatively coarse paper, 180 included, has created a real problem straightening it out. If he is just a hack he might leave them there.

Your text is shortened up to make it easier to find the obvious errors. As I have responded to you before your understanding of finishing is extremely weak.

Tung is no different than linseed for durability, hardness, workability, luster, waterproofing, or anything else. In the industry they are used interchangeably. Tung oil finishes often have no tung oil whatsoever in them.

Low gloss finishes use silica to deaden the shine. That weakens the finish and reduces its waterproofness considerably. It is a poor choice for wood that will get wet.

Funny, none of my finishing texts, articles, or anything else confuses filling the pores with sealing. You can fill the pores and not have a sealed piece of wood or you can seal the wood and not have filled pores. They do not mean the same thing.

There are two finishes that are virtually waterproof and gunsmiths often use them.

There are many finishes far better than tung oil finishes for gunstocks. A spar varnish finish topped with an oil finish is far better than a tung oil finish. It will look just like an oil finish, too. And repair is a snap.

Oil-based finishes will absorb atmospheric water faster than bare wood.

From Chemistry of wood products.

"What is spar varnish made from"?


The Components

Nearly all modern varnish contains a few basic components: oil, resin, and a solvent. By modifying the types and amounts of these components, we can create a whole range of mixtures that vary in price and are specifically suited for either indoor or outdoor use. Fortunately for the inquisitive finisher, there are only so many ingredients that manufacturers have to choose from. And this makes it easier to see beyond the marketing jargon to deduce how a particular finish will behave. Here are the most common recipe ingredients:

Oils – Linseed Oil and/or Tung Oil
Resins – Alkyd, Phenolic, or Polyurethane
Solvents – Mineral Spirits, Naptha, or Paint Thinner

Nice try.

Clearly your ability to understand basic wood finishing is even more limited than I imagined...

I will type this very slowly for you...

Replacing oil solids in a cured finish with resins reduces the oil's ability to absorb and transfer water, frank and vapor.

I made seven direct statements contradicting your posts. You chose one loser right up front because it was the only one you thought you could defend. Please point out any error or omission on my part that has not been addressed and I will give you the information required to fact check it.

You do not want to take any more cheap shots at me, guaranteed. I built my first stock before you built yours and spent serious time working in the wood technology arena. I did not get to guide out in the Intermountain West and see all those great things. My guiding has been confined to Alaska; Kodiak, Southwestern, Western, and Southcentral, and a lot more... none of which has a damn thing to do with building a gun.

And they are surprised when good people leave here and dont bother to come back!

Who's "Frank"??

Not nearly as surprised as when someone comes along and fails to see through the smoke and screws up their project. The use of the orbital sander is a dead giveaway. Suggesting they could do the job in 5 minutes was another.

You like smoke blown up your backside?

frank: Real, liquid, visible water, as opposed to vapor.

Ok.. Learn something new EVERY day..

Sorry, I thought you were funning me!

Well it seems some members here enjoyed the video and learned something from it. As I said before, I have no dog in the fight, and if someone wants to use other techniques or products I would not know, much less care.

Sitka, one mark of a fool and an idiot is being offended at new information and wanting to be the star of the show. You fit right in with all those Hollywood types we are hearing about constantly from the Democrats these days. Stupid and offensive, but that's what gives you a reason to live I guess. You and only you thought it was fun to attack someone without seeing or hearing. Again, the mark of a fool.

Buy the way; you apparently know when I made my first stock. That's what you just said in the last post.
please tell me and the others. Just like you told them I would never try to make the video.

Folks, I will post pictures of the finished stocks and I am keeping track of the time it takes. I'll let all of you decide if the finish is good or not. Then you can ask OSU Sig how it's doing after a few years of use if you are still interested at that point.

Some men, in many industries, over charge people and depend on the ignorance of the customers ignorance to justify the costs. I like the policy of fully disclosing what I do. The Emperor really is naked. I don't need to use distractions. I am doing fine with my clientele.

Orbital sanders.....hummmmmm is there anyone reading this post that is stupid enough to think that factory guns are 100% hand sanded with paper over blocks? (Other than Sitka)

All American gun manufacturers use power tools to sand with, and so does Merkel Krieghoff, Benelli, Mauser, Sabatti Browning, and probably 50 others.

Do I do 100% hand sanded guns.
Yup. When there is a reason.
Like the carved flintlocks I do to earn about 85% of my living.

But on large open surfaces, an orbital sander works as well as hand sanding. If you doubt it write to any of the above named companies and have them send you their videos of their wood shops.

So if those members what to ask me questions or seek advice (which I may or may not have, but if I don't know something I won't just make up crap to fill space with) please feel free to PM me and I will be happy to help. I am not interested in gaining anything monetarily from it. Just trying to pass on what I have learned in the last 52 years.

Any members that do not believe that I know what I am talking about are welcome to believe it. You can more easily not contact me than write to me. That will be an easy way to go for you and it doesn't make you bad people.

There are many ways work can be done. I know a few of them. If I am asked, I'll openly and honestly tell you what I do, and why. If you disagree you are welcome to do so.

If you have tips for me I'd be happy to hear what you have to
say.

Any members who believe that dealing with a jerk and an ultra-fool is the wise way to go know who they can contact.

He's always available. Seems to live for it in fact. Over 30,000 posts. 351 just in the time it took for this thread to gain 3 pages.

Must be a VERY fast typist if he still have time to work. He types about working a lot.

The point is simple.
I am here to help.
He is here to offend and blow his own horn.

Just like the Lin/Dems we are seeing on the news in the last few weeks, he believe its his calling to offend, but as soon as anyone points out his foolishness, he doesn’t stop, he doesn’t re-think or do anything with a speck of virtue in it. He tries to be more offensive and is fool enough to believe if he can offend enough he will win an argument. Mile Madona or Mily Cyrus---- but without their talent, (however wasted)


Funny ------ in that there was not really anything to argue about in the first place. Just a different way of proceeding with a job. But Sitka, you see it as an opportunity to be idiotic.

You may be a gunsmith. You may be better than Monty Manderino or Bivins, or Len Brownell. You may have skills and talent. You also may be nothing but a blow-hard and trying to be cyber-tough when you know you are safe behind your computer. I don’t know.
I don’t care.

But I think everyone would agree that going out of your way to be a jerk is not a good business practice.

I am NOT alone in that opinion. If I made a guess, I’d say the reason being a bad business man is unimportant to Sitka is that there is not much business left to do. At this point he may not have much to loose. Hence the 30,300 posts.
Can I say that for sure?
NO!

But logic seems to point us in that direction.


At least that seems to be an opinion shared by many, and not just here on 24 hour Campfire, but in the Anchorage area. (not hard to look up) My Sister and Brother in Law live south of there, and with nothing but a call I find he has such a reputation.

People like that are even an embarrassment to their own families, but everyone is free to make their own dissensions.

I will finish this thread when I post the pics of the finished stock and fore-end. I let those that want to think me incompetent believe it. Those that think I can help or have anything to offer, please feel free to contact me directly.
I have work to do. If I contribute to the 24 hour campfire 4 times a day for the next 10 years, it’s just to help others. I gain nothing from it.
If I decide to drop out and allow Sitka his sand-box, I loose nothing.

Men, if you want to ask me anything, feel free to PM me.
I’ll leave the open forums and idiot-debates to the idiots.

If I post, and someone like what I said, PM me.

Funny, but there are many different types of power sanders... keep digging...

New information?!?!?! Your methods are antiquated beyond belief! There is nothing remotely new there.

It is about the level of workmanship expected.

Got to go help a friend kill a moose now...

ALL:

Can't we end this here and now? Everyone has opinions and there is always more that one solution to any problem. Quite frankly - after five decades of doing stock work - I learned something that I would never had thought to try - Thankyou SZIHN, for taking the time and effort to show us YOUR method, which works so well for you. I am going to try it and see how it works for me.

Having said that, I just recommended this website/forum to a couple of friends; I sincerely hope that they do NOT read this thread in its entirety. When any of us show our ass, we ALL look bad. It certainly is not representative of 99% of the discussions here and not what I want others to judge us by. You know the deal: One 'aw sh_t' outweighs a thousand 'attaboys'.

fully Agree.

Having known Sitka Deer for ~20 years, I can personally attest that he is a master woodworker who also happens to make rifle and shotgun stocks. Disparaging him in this regards makes one look foolish, at best.

Having him tutor me on completing a stock and using his finishing technique on coastal Alaskan hunts I can attest to how well the finish holds up and how stable the stock is in varying temperatures and humidities. And having been shown what to look for in a properly executed stock I can look at a factory stock and see where they fall short in many respects.

Often times shortcuts are just that and the results are just not the same. Some people don't know the difference between quality work and a job that takes shortcuts, others do.

You can say a MacDonalds meal is the same as one from a fine restaurant. Some truly can't taste or appreciate the difference, others can.

If your happy taking shortcuts and don't care about the final product, good for you. But to claim such a job is fully equal to doing the job right, some folks that now better are going to call bs.

Many people don't know what they don't know. Such people would be better served by listening and learning rather then being self proclaimed experts.

I would fully agree with 458 on all principals he set forth in his post.
Every one!

Just keep in mind, it's a 2 way street.

No one here, myself included has said anything bad about his work. In fact, up until your post, no one here said they ever saw any of his work.

This is far more about manors. Simple courtesy. Wisdom.
And the lack there-of.

No double standards should be allowed.

+1 szihn but you can't get the message about manners thru his thick head.

Politely put you are giving advice to that if followed will damage a stock and result in substandard results.

Art's not a politician and doesn't sugar coat things. Some people get their feelers hurt when faced with the truth.

So the real issue is whether or not one is hurt by the truth of the matter, or the presentation. You can bloviate ad nauseam, but that doesn't change the truth.

Truth is one thing but rude insulting behavior has nothing to do with it. Where are the guy's manners?