Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Clontarf revisted

Geeze Kute, don't you have someones grammar to correct? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And as you'll admit, you described the Irish Celts as "Nordic" too, a description which I believe most present day Irish would find odd. Note that Edward Rutherford himself draws a fine distinction.

And never have I implied that Germanic and Celt never hopped into the sack together, indeed that OTHER form of warfare usually being a partner to the conventional sort when dissimilar peoples mingle.

It is though fascinating to observe the present day distribution of the typically Celtic Y chromosome and what it suggests about the movement and migrations or lack thereof of the two populations over the ages, at least the males.

My own suspicion is that you yourself clearly do NOT have that Celtic Y.

Note that I said "mostly pre-literate", to the effect that it is unlikey a large percentage of either society in that day and age were literate, and bards and wandering storytellers were prized guests at the tables of both. For good reason.

A bit beside the point, but we don't have teacher's unions worth anything in Texas (ain't we already discussed my salary, or lack thereof <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). And my grammar school education was of the Catholic persuation in working class England (I used to get "the strap" frequently <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), and geeze, history classes in England can be glorious.

"...'mongst Indians, a tribe's greatness is measured by how mighty their enemies be..." (W. Geer 1973). I figured you'd be lurking somewhere out there, like those longships hidden in the sea mist, and welcome to the thread <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Birdwatcher

In those days, each Irish and Scottish clan had a Seannachaidh (anglicized to Sennachie, Senachie, Shanachie, and other variants) who was the historian, genealogist, bard and poet of the clan. The sennachie was often from a sept with a different name, but related to the chief by blood.

This position was highly esteemed and passed from father to son, generation after generation. The traditions, deeds and history of the clan were kept alive in oral form (and later written) for centuries before literacy was common.

Both sides of my family do in fact have Celtic blood and your post demonstrates, as usual, a total disregard of the specific points I mentioned. Rutherford is enjoyable, light reading and his research is usually very sound, however, there are other sources where one can learn about these issues in greater detail and from a more scholastically credible source. One should actually READ the sagas before making reference to them in order to be an honest commentator on them....or anything else.

My comment on teacher's unions was not made about you specifically, it was concerning the general state of public education in contemporary North America. This is appalling and as I also attended a Roman Catholic private school, in addition to two public schools and three post-secondary institutions, I have some first-hand knowledge of this.

If, I were a teacher, I would NEVER post as you do and then claim to be any sort of a reliable source on matters historical. You are certainly underpaid and I am quite certain that you probably are a kind, supportive and decent teacher and human being, but, you are a sloppy and devious debater of these topics and I find that a sad circumstance in one who should be a leader in discussion and in an appropriate manner for a professional.

Ribbing me about my concern for historical accuracy and proper epistolary style simply demonstrates the typical weakness in so many of your posts. You cannot discuss these issues concerning ethnicity without allowing your very obvious liberal bias to distort factual reality, so, you "stoop to conquer" by attempting to mock someone whose knowledge and writing you are unable to match.....as others here have told you in the past.

There are NO "pure" Norse OR Celtic peoples alive now and there have not been for centuries, so, the term "Nordic" which refers to geographical, cultural, AND ethnic aspects of certain peoples, Irish included IS correct, but, you need to actually READ a bit beyond Rutherford to understand this. Try reading Gwyn Jones to start and THEN tell me about the Norse-Celtic-Saxon-Angle-Flemish (also Nordic) and other peoples of the British Isles, etc. BTW, if IRCC, the first "Irish" were actually settlers from "perfidious Albion" as Rutherford states, EH!

You need help, Birdy, so, I decided to pitch in and assist you in my characteristic mellow, un-biased and soft-spoken fashion.........

Jeez kutenay, let me remind you how Birdy started this topic;

Birdy said in his opening post:



Emphasis mine.

This started out as an interesting diversion from the usual fare in this forum. Please allow Birdy the opportunity to continue sharing the excerpts from the book without your condemnatory remarks.

Please allow me to avail myself of MY right to free speech/expression without attempting to act as the "moderator" of this forum. Birdy and I have been exchanging friendly epistolary ripostes here concerning these matters for over two years and while I accept your right to comment, may I suggest that my right is equal.

Kutenay, perhaps it would be more effective to post factual info, specific quotes and references. Merely quoting authors while avering superior knowledge accomplishes little.

For example, kindly give the source of the "Albion" quote you attribute to Rutherford. And, if I am misquoting/misusing the Sagas, point out where.

With regards to my motives and such I will observe this... it is my experience that when one makes assumptions as to the motives of others, it is universal human nature to project one's own nature upon theirs, hence such assumptions generally reveal more about the author than the target.

With respect to racial/cutural distinctions I am going to gently suggest again that your definition of "Nordic" seems mostly unique to yourself, if it isn't, provide links.

Racial distinction are always difficult and arbitrary, cut it fine enough and every different familial lineage becomes a "race", but the fact remains recent research has shown there are previously unsuspected differences in at least some gene frequencies between traditional discontinuous "Celtic" strongholds and the rest of Europe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1256894.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm

Not surprising per se, but what IS surprising is the relative absence of "Celtic" genotypes in the rest of Europe, suggesting displacement rather than widespread commingling.

Birdwatcher

I always was taught that it was the other way 'round, the first "Scots" were from Ireland. After the Picts were wiped out, Irish raiders/settlers occupied the northern part of Britain. Scots Gaelic being closer to Irish Gaelic, and derivative from Irish. Also Duns Scotus, the philosopher, was John the Irishman.

Sycamore

MacD.... I'd be lying if I said I wasn't trying to get at the truth beneath the fiction, and I think Rutherford distills the gist in accessible form, and certainly livng in Ireland and publishing in England his work would be subject to quite rigorous review..

But you do get at my motives; this stuff is just plain INTERESTING, and hits especially close to home when it pertains to one's own bloodlines.

With respect to the accuracy of oral tradition, pertaining specifically to Clontarf, turns out the author of the particular saga I quoted, "Njal's saga" is unknown, but another similar Icelandic chronicler (??) of the same century, one Snorri Sturluson, admits of his writings "although we do not know the truth of these, we know, however, of occasions when wise old men have reckoned such things as true".

Again, the recounting of Brodar and his men being showered with boiling blood while harbored at Man does strain credulity. OTOH I have been sadly disappointed by the common old Irish folklore, Cucullain (sp?) and the like, simply because they are too fantastic (used here in the "unreal" sense) to make interesting reading.

Anyhow, turns out there is are extant Irish sources on Clontarf too... http://www.libraryireland.com/HullHistory/Clontarf1.php



Hmmm... "Wars of the Gael with the Gall"... I'll have to do some more googling.

Relative to other battles, Clontarf does seem to be confidently described by Historians though. I was curious as to how the numbers of participants in the battles of that era related to the total population of England and Ireland at the time (best I can come up with is about three to four hundred thousand for Ireland and two million for England).

I have already commented on the paucity of information pertaining to Glen Mama, more surprising was the lack of specifics on the numbers involved in the general Ethelred/Viking fracas over in England.

Confident numbers are easily obtainable for Hastings (1066), but suprisingly vague for the probably equally important Battle of Stamford Bridge, three weeks earlier that same year.

Birdwatcher

Sycamore.. Peripheral to your question, and far be it from me to fight Kutenay's battles for him, but it turns out the Scots are an especially hybrid bunch....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1689955.stm

But as you point out, most everyone has it that the Scots' grandads were Irish.

Birdwatcher

Once again, Birdy, you strive to avoid an honest admission of your errors in historical recounting by attempting to discredit me; the silly, "pop psychology" comment about projecting, etc. is the over-used excuse "du jour" of so many poseurs on intellectual matters, surely you can do better?

This is the second time this week that an academic has used this hackneyed phrase against me in lieu of actually being able to best me in honest debate, both "liberals", as one might expect.

As to specific quotes and links, Birdy, I have provided many such attempts to alleviate your lack of basic historical literacy. You NEVER quote the Sagas, because YOU have never read them or much other serious, scholastic historical or literary work.

You haven't the slightest idea who Gwyn Jones is/was and you do not even recognise the provenance of the term, correctly delineated in quotation marks, "perfidious Albion".

This is NOT a quotation from Rutherford as it would be set forth in periods if it were as is correct with written work(s). An example would be ...avering superior knowledge... and did you mean AVERRING?

If, you are going to continue with your sanctimonious preaching about matters of race and culture and intend to use uncommon words/terms to do so, I suggest using a dictionary in order to spell them correctly.Esoteric or arcane usage is, when incorrect, perhaps the most obvious indicator of a lack of real knowledge of the topic by the user, so, this is actually pertinent to your credibility.

Now, Birdy, you may be a teacher, but, you really are sloppy in intellectual terms and seem to miss the precise references which I have repeatedly provided you. Concerning my use of the term "Nordic", see "The Kingdom of Canada"- Dr. W.L. Morton, "Colony to Nation"-Dr. A.M. Lower and the specific chapters dealing with the Norse-Celtic entry into North America.

I have already mentioned "The History of the Vikings" by Dr. G. Jones and while these are only three of the most recognized texts on this issue and are very scholarly tomes that you might find inaccessible in some repects, they WILL support my points. Birdy, you need to read beyond Rutherford and various British popular press journals if you really want to learn about issues of this type.

The term "perfidious Albion" is used by Shakespeare as well as divers lesser British and Continental writers as a surrogate name for "merrye Englande", again, this IS the way one refers to such terms within a written essay. Capeche?

Ah, Birdy, what potential you show, but, you must move beyond Wikipedia, popular fiction and especially your own liberal prejudices in order to learn about historical reality and it's effects upon the contemporary world. If, you lived close by, I would lend you some of these books, my marginal notes and all, but, since some of them are out of print and VERY hard to replace, I will not mail them.

So, Birdy, maybe it is not I who am imprecise, misinformed or mistaken in my use of ethnic terms or in my historical comments, eh? Strive on, old chap, there is hope for even a Mick-Limey-Yank-Texican !!!!!

Ah, this is FUN, but, my Rottweilers, Krauthunds that they are, are raising hell, so, I gotta go. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Kutenay, "Quiet, or the gallowglass will come".
lol
Max

Regarding the genetic origins of the populations of Britain and Ireland, can I refer you to "Blood of the Isles" by Bryan Sykes. This guy is a professor of genetics at Oxford University.

It might be worth the read.

"Pop psychology"? I wish. How about sad experience? I came up with that one all by myself, and find it to be invariably true.

..and ya got me on Shakespeare, but then you were an English major. Me? Studying English or literature as a topic was always about like listening to nails dragged down the blackboard. I will say to constantly call folks to task for it on a board such as this is merely tiresome and uncharitable.

However in the sense Shakespeare uses the term, the Celts do appear to have come from far Southeastern Europe via Britain. Near as I can tell the Germanic types originated in Scandinavia.

Thanks for the heads-up on Gwynn Jones, W.L. Morton and A.M. Lower, but once again... why not quote from them? More importantly, WHEN were they published?

How long can the pertinent passages be? Quote some.

You assail me on academic grounds, saying I resort to personal attacks, but pretty much a constant in a great many of your posts ARE personal attacks, to anyone who disagrees with you.

Case in point my "sanctimonious preaching". Here? Where?

I will note that you are now using the hyphenated term "Norse-Celtic", if Celts are "Nordic", why the hyphen? and is "Norse" different from "Nordic".

Since you have not elucidated the provenance other than naming authors, browse around and you'll note most of those using the term "Nordice race" are the various White supremacy groups, which we have already established you are NOT a member.

Nearest common usage I can tell to what you mean most people call "Germanic", and I'm coming up with a Scandinavian source for them.

OK, to make your long reply shorter.... we already know about my sloppy academics/faults of teachers/sanctimonious preaching etc etc etc.... when you write back kindly jump right to the topics at hand.

Once again (as it was not answered) kindly define the term "Nordic", thus far the best I have gotten from you is vague references to all of Northwestern Europe in general, and a Northern Rhine origin in particular.

And while I'm asking things twice, where did I misquote or misuse that Icelandic saga?

So here I am.... bring on that academic stuff, at this point I have titles and authors but nothing more.

I'm gonna defend Rutherford once again, ALL history is in some degree fiction, however I would once again aver ( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) that the factual underpinning of his works as far as his known are sound.

For example his marvellous recounting of the spectacle of the Viking fleet in Liffey Bay, and of the mixed force leaving Dublin are of course largely speculation, but as good a description as any of what those things probably looked like.

And I post them here not for reasons of ego, but to share something cool.

After all in the words pop-psychologists attribute to one of your faves, them aboriginal natives... "Happiness was born a twin, to have joy you must share it."

Birdwatcher

Claret, thank for the reference, although the 2006 publishing date means I'll have to pay for hard cover. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Anyhoo, might be a waste of time in my case, SOMEONE around here has in the past suggested that my own forebearers were "probably mongrels from the time of the Armarda".... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Birdwatcher

BIRDY-- it's done thawed up, man. Go to work. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


BCR

Birdy, I have no idea what kutenay is referring to when he uses the term "Norse-Celtic" but in the history of Scotland at least, a Gall-Gaidheal literally means a "Foreign Gael."

Rather than try to explain it in my own words, I'll draw your attention to this site:

Gall Gaidheal

Please note that the term refers to a specific people and by no means conveys Nordic heritage to all Celts, nor Celtic heritage for the native peoples of Denmark or Scandinavia.

"...and I wish someone had a camera."
aye. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MacD thanks for the link (and the careful wording), but note that the gist of this started way back when when Kute stated flatly that "Ireland is a Nordic Country", and it has been going on since then.

I HAVE painted myself into a corner by bringing up the genetic, especially given that, if I were King, entry into the Celtic club would be a cinch, but so be it....

Ya gotta admit, the concept of a Celtic Y is something that has huge popular appeal. Turns out several studies have been launched on European and specifically English/Irish/Norse/Saxon descendant populations.

A recent discussion of one specific to Ireland called the "Ui Neill Study" can be found here...
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-11/116474006


But like the author said, all the results ain't in yet, and if you browse up the results of the study, IIRC 'tweren't ALL Irish looked at, but just some.

So... I may yet go down in flames, but not just yet. And regardless, I'll be getting back to Clontarf directly.

Birdwatcher

Claret... just a follow up; for we here across the Pond, Sykes work has been retitled "Saxons, Vikings, and Celts"....
http://www.amazon.com/Saxons-Vikings-Celts-Genetic-Britain/dp/0393062686

...and some pretty good reviews, posted here for general consumption...



Birdwatcher

Might be that the reputation of the Vikings in common perception is a bit overblown. Not their individual courage, nor their spirit of exploration, and certainly not their beautiful longships which are among the finest blendings of form and function ever produced by the hand of man.

(Among other things to be remembered by, on our next probe that will leave our solar system we should include instructions on how to build a longship).

What may be overblown is the Vikings' success rate on the field of battle. No surprise that the surprise landing of a shipful of highly trained and motivated men should have made a lasting impression, sorta like a chopper full of Navy Seals landing in your back yard.

But devastating raids upon the Irish? The Irish for one were old hands at that. Sacked monasteries? Not as many as were sacked by the Irish. And the Irish fought back.

Consider Dublin, a quintessential Viking port.... founded prior to 850, the Vikings expelled entirely in 902, having made little headway in controlling Irish real estate in the interim.

The Vikings return to Dublin in 917, and in the nearly 100 years from then until Clontarf, Dublin was beseiged and/or occupied by the surrounding Irish at least ten times.

Typical was the occupation by Brian Boru in 999 following the Dubliners' defeat at Glen Mama. At that time many of the Dublin "Ostmen" and their families were systematically rounded up and sold into slavery.

The reality being of course that the Viking ports wherever they were located weren't really about pillage, but trade, at least after the first bloody rush of founding. An enduring trade profitable to both sides.

By the Tenth Century the collective effect of the Viking port cities on internal Irish politics was mostly through alliances made and tribute paid, the Viking ports themselves being valuable sources of wealth for whatever Irish King could wrest lordship over them from rival Irish.

Earl Sigurd and Brodir tried to change that at Clontarf and were killed for their trouble, as Vikings had been many times previous in Ireland and elsewhere.

If the Viking footprint in modern Irish DNA seems to be minimal, the most likely explanation is that there were never very many Vikings in Ireland.

Birdwatcher