Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game "The 30-06 is obsolete!"

Ok, you are crazy.

More importantly you are myopic. You believe that everyone should arrive at the same conclusions you do based on the available evidence, yet you fail to see the entire landscape. A fast-twist .223 is highly “efficient” based on your weight and recoil criteria and would easily suffice for most of the shooting and hunting most people will do in their lifetimes - yet they often shunned for various reasons and are illegal for hunting big game in some (most?) states.

The .30-06 has about 19% more case capacity than the .308 Win. Handloaders can easily take advantage of that capacity to push bullets of a given weight to a given velocity at lower pressure, heavier bullets to the same velocity or same weight bullets to a higher velocity. Nothing “obsolete” about that.

" efficient cartridge that gets that done with the minimum rifle weight and recoil. That analysis almost always favors the factors I listed above, as well as smaller calibers with high sectional density premium bullets"

Last time I checked, being efficient involved getting the job done with minimal costs. Concluding that premium bullets are always required? Don't think that always "efficient".

Mike, there's another way to put it.

Second Place is the First Loser.









All in good fun. I don't hate the 308.

I resist the theory, "just as good as". IMO, unless it's equal-- it's not.

BTST (by the same token) - the 06 is NOT just as good as the 300 Mags -- the 270/280 is NOt just as good as the 7mm RM, etc.

Jerry

I don't recall saying anything about cost. Given the much larger costs of hunting that have nothing to do with the cost of your bullet, and the substantial difference in value between recovering and losing an animal, frankly I can't see why anyone ever hunts with non-premium bullets.

You (intentionally?) ignored half of what I said - the part about appropriate terminal ballistics. Don't think a .224 bullet is suitable for the animal you're hunting, or it's not legal? Great, don't use one. I don't think they work particularly well on deer-sized game myself even though most states including mine have legalized them. But that doesn't mean the solution is to move to a .30-378W or even a .30-06. There are plenty of 6mm, .25 and 6.5mm bullets that are good for deer, and that chambered in various short action cartridges give a nice, efficient, easy to carry deer rifle for use out west. Do I think most deer hunters would be better off with a .243, .257 Roberts(+P), .260, 6.5CM or heck even a 6mm Dasher than with a .30-06? Definitely. You get plenty good terminal ballistics, plenty of reach, a lighter gun, and less recoil.

Lots of ways to measure "efficiency" - depends on what the goals are.

People have killed a lot of elk with .243's, yet I've seen more elk wounded and lost after being shot with a .243 than perhaps all other cartridges combined. When a .243 works, it is very "efficient". When it doesn't, "efficiency" goes down the drain.

Who has concluded "premium bullets are always required"? Certainly not me, although certain "premium bullets" are my preference. I've often stated on this forum and elsewhere that most times most bullets will work and that with larger, heavier bullets the advantage of premiums diminishes.

The foremost reason to use premiums on big game is to effectively guarantee an exit wound, especially with A-Frames. Exit wounds bleed and a blood trail greatly reduces the chance you'll lose an animal.

The cost of premiums is trivial compared to the value of a lost animal. Even if they only make a difference on a couple percent of shots, it's well worth it.

And I wouldn't hunt elk with a .243 either - that's the whole terminal ballistics part I mentioned. But a 6.5mm (pick your case) shooting 140-160gr A-frames or weldcores? Absolutely. Less recoil, a lighter gun, and higher SD than a .30-06. That whole efficiency thing...

I didn’t ignore half of what you said, I just don’t accept your premises. A .30-06 can easily be downloaded to .308 Win or even lower velocities and trajectories and recoil. Or, because of it’s 19% greater case volume, it can be loaded up to provide higher velocities and flatter trajectories. It can also push heavier bullets to velocities the .308 Win can only dream of. For hunting purposes, there are few options as versatile as the .30-06.

Your contention that a smaller cartridge implies a lighter rifle is mistaken in the extreme. The standard barrel length for a .308 Win is 22” but the 20” barreled .30-06 I just gave my latest son-in-law is shorter and lighter than most .308 Win rifles. A shorter cartridge allows a shorter, lighter action and rifle but does not guarantee anything. In the Ruger American rifles, both with 22” barrels, the .308 Win is indeed lighter, but only by 1.6 ounces – hardly worth mentioning. As to “easy to carry”, the .308 Win American is a whole .5” shorter – again not much to write home about.

Your analysis of recoil is also flawed. Consider Hodgdon’s data. Load a 7.0 pound Ruger Hawkeye to 2737fps with a 168g bullet and 45.0g Varget and you get recoil of 20.4 ft-lbs @ 13.7fps. Load Ruger’s 7.5 pound .30-06 Hawkeye to 2710fps with a 168g bullet and 47.0g Varget and you get recoil of 19.3 ft-lbs @ 12.9fps. (Both Ruger rifles have 22” barrels, so the velocity numbers would change somewhat, but the .30-06 would still have less recoil – I checked.) For those who want to deliver more energy downrange, a 24” 30-06 can be loaded up to 2897fps with H4350, delivering 2000 ft-lbs to 390 yards, about 100 yards further than a 308 can do. Perhaps that 100 yards is not important to you or perhaps you see no need for a 168g or heavier bullet. Not everyone would agree and there are many who would gladly trade another 4 ft-lbs of recoil for that advantage.

For my own purposes, I’ve determined a .30-06 generally meets my hunting needs better than a .308 Win, even though I’ve had four .308s and still have two. Perhaps you should sit down for this last - a 7mm RM suits or .300WM suits my needs even better.

When you download .30-06 to .308 specs (which is really saying load it like all factory .30-06 ammo), you still end up with more recoil and/or a heavier gun. There is no way to get away from the weaknesses of an inefficient cartridge. If you claim otherwise, your math is wrong.

Incidentally, I will agree on the merits of the 7mm RM - a relatively efficient, high-SD cartridge suitable for most NA game if substantial reach is required. My #1 big game rifle is a 7RM shooting 175gr A-frames at about 2950.

The 7WSM/SAUM are conceptually better, but the introductions were so bad as to make them questionable choices.

You end up with a heavier gun only if the gun is heavier. Some .30-06 rifles are lighter than some .308 Win rifles. When the .30-06 is heavier, recoil at .308 Win velocities can be less than when using a lighter .308 Win. The math isn't wrong.

I'll take the .30-06 and the extra 100 yards effective range it provides with the bullets I prefer.

You're still confused, or intentionally ignoring what you're being told.

It is impossible to make a .30-06 that has the same velocity with the same bullet as a .308 with the same weight and recoil. If the velocity is the same, the .30-06 will either have more recoil, or be heavier (to keep the recoil the same). That is the simple consequence of using a less efficient cartridge. There's no way around it - simple physics at work.

Oh, any you're not getting an extra 100y of effective range unless you're loading overpressure .30-06 or underpressure .308. The difference in velocity is much smaller than that.

That is correct and agrees with what I wrote. That said, some .30-06 rifles are heavier and some are lighter than available .308 rifles. Felt recoil is not a simple matter of cartridge choice.

Even at maximum loads the .30-06 is has recoil readily managed by most shooters. If it didn’t the .30-06 would have fallen from favor decades ago.


What you fail to understand is that “efficiency” depends on what is being measured. The .30-06 can do what the .308 Win can do but do it at lower pressures for longer barrel and brass life. It can also easily surpass the .308, reaching territory the .308 Win cannot. Want to push a 110g bullet to 3500fps or a 180g bullet to 2800fps? Don’t reach for a .308. It’s efficiency in the regions it can’t reach is a goose egg.


Once again you are wrong. Using Hodgdon load data, the .30-06 pushes a 180g bullet to 2840fps with 56,700 PSI while a .308 tops out at 2683fps at 58,200 PSI. Assuming a Nosler AccuBond (B.C. 507) the .30-06 retains 2000fpe to 445 yards while the .308 manages only 335 yards. By my count that gives the .30-06 a 110 yard advantage with no overpressure needed.

In any case, I have no problem loading the .30-06 to .308 pressures in my Remington 700 and Ruger M77/MKII rifles any more than I have a problem loading my .257 Roberts to SAAMI +P pressures. If the .30-06 was introduced today there is little doubt the pressure limit would match or exceed the .308 Win’s 62,000 PSI SAMMI MAP.

The 30-06 will NEVER be obsolete!
All those others are just wannabes!!!

Coyote Hunter is obsolete

C H -

Agree!
There is absolutely NO reason to LIMIT the 06 pressures to 1906 data, IN modern firearms.

That would be like driving a 2017 Truck and limiting speed to Model T speed- 30 MPH.

Jerry

Hodgdon data is not very good - they have lots of pressure errors for starters. The real gap with the best powders at SAAMI max pressure is often less than 100 ft/s depending on bullet. That won't get you 100y.

The .30-06 can of course be improved by increasing the pressure IF the brass you're using is designed for over-pressure use. With the right brass you could probably run it at 65K in certain guns (.308 too). Problem is, as far as I know no one makes that brass.

Mr. Bob, I don't know whether your info is obsolete or you just don't know (ignorant).??

Here are 3 pix from



Notice the date published 1978




Loads For 30-06 Sako - W W brass (older manuf.)




Loads for 150 gr . . AND . . 165 . . AND 180 grain bullets.


Apparently Mr. Hagel found some GOOD brass before 1978.


I, personally have shot several of those loads **NO rifles blown up ** NO stuck cases and Velocities on par w/22" bll.
Also some of those have been shot in Rem Model Six rifles (pumps - no less)
I'm currently shooting my LAST lb. of H 205 under 165 HBTSP @ 2920-2950 fps ( Oehler 33 graph)

I also know that WW brass today is ?suspect? but Nosler, Norma, & Hornady brass today will stand pressures EQUAL to 308 pressures.


I've never seen a 308 produce those speeds even from 24" blls.

Just giving some stats FROM 1978 and I've been using 30+ years.

Jerry

I know I certainly resemble that remark


and three of my obsolete rifles.........



Sako Bavarian Carbine, 30-06 Springfield and a "twofer"




Browning 1885 hi-wall, 30-06 Springfield




Sauer 200, 30-06 Springfield

ya!

GWB

.308 can produce those velocities exactly in a 24" barrel if you're willing to use RL-17. For example on the 180 partition, .308 SAAMi max depending on your exact case and primer is about 50.5gr and velocity is 2820 give or take. I'll be the first to say that RL-17 is a little on the temp sensitive side, but then again so are N204 and especially N205.

You lose 30 ft/s going to RL16 if you need temp stability.

If you're going to try to explain how the .30-06 is so wonderful relative to the .308, you might want to try an example that the .308 can't do The gap is MUCH smaller than most people think it is.