Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game "The 30-06 is obsolete!"

LOL, nothing like someone quoting Bob Hagel's load data and using it to label someone else's as obsolete or label the other guy ignorant....

Those are some great looking rifles. To bad they are obsolete and don't work any more.

The 4831 load listed for the 180gr partition QuickLoads OK. It's right near max. It's just nothing exceptional - a nominal 18 ft/s over .308 max for the same bullet.

That's not to say he may not have pushed ridiculous stuff in other places.

I don't have much of an opinion about the Norma powders except that N205 is unavailable I believe.

From a manufacturing standpoint, it only makes sens to create all cases based on the .30-06 to the same standard. The reason is that up to the pinch trim, where cases are cut to length, the manufacturing process is the same and the blanks can be sued for any .30-06 based cartridge. It is only after the pinch trim that the cases get headstamped and necked down. Using a common case provides manufacturing flexibility. To do otherwise incurs significant unnecessary inventory expense and other problems. You may prefer to think manufacturers are idiots, I don't. I'd bet good money the 63,000 PSI .25-06, 65,000 PSI .270 Win, 60,000 PSI .280 Rem, 65,000 PSI .280 Ackley, 60,000 PSI .30-06, 62,000 PSI .35 Whelen cases all use the same pinch trimmed blanks for any manufacturer that makes multiple cartrdiges based on the .30-06.

As far as I know, no one makes separate blanks for each cartridge.

Now Smokey are you learning from the liberal media to TWIST what was REALLY said.? ?

Originally Posted by jwall
Mr. Bob, I don't know whether your info is obsolete or you just don't know (ignorant).??


Posted by smokepole -
"LOL, nothing like someone quoting Bob Hagel's load data and using it to label someone else's as obsolete or label the other guy ignorant...."

I SAID, I don't know if he didn't know. I did NOT call him ignorant! ! Note the ?? marks.

Also I said, I've shot MANY of those loads over the years. YES, I worked up to them, I did not automatically load the max first.
I'm aware of Bob H's reputation of HOT loading and have heard that he blew up some guns. Our own MD reported that B H had swelled chambers and or blew up some rifles.

However, I didn't find ANY loads that I TRIED to be damaging to brass or rifles.

Llama Bob also said on THIS page that his (B H's) load with 4831 with 180 Partitions checked out with Q L.

Please don't twist my words .

Jerry

Coyote Hunter, you may be right about the cases. I would want to see sectioned cases and a hardness test (or manufacturer statement) before I would trust it though.

Incidentally, I have nothing against improving the .30-06 either in terms of MAP or in terms of case geometry/capacity. I think it's overdue actually. An extra 2-3KPSI and a 70gr H20 or bigger case with a 40deg shoulder would probably buy the better part of 100 ft/s more or less "for free".

Now I see that you didn't tell him he was ignorant, you asked him if he was.

My most humble apologies for twisting your words.

Smokey

Close enuff, thank you.

We're good.


Jerry

It is obsolete when they cease the production of firearms chambered for this cartridge. For example the 300 savage is a very good big game cartridge with a long history of good performance but no rifle has been chambered for this cartridge in many years.

30-06 is still rolling along with healthy sales of rifles and ammo for this cartridge.

Sherwood

For elk, the trend is toward mouse guns and elephant guns. I can't decide if my '06 is too big or too small.

Actually Savage was just chambering the .300 Savage in the model 14/114 a few years ago. Now the .303 Savage qualifies as obsolete.

That seems like a reasonable policy in general. If I was going to hunt everything from woodchucks to elephants with only two rifles, the first one would be exactly 6.5 caliber and the second would be at least .405 caliber but more likely ..423, 458 or .510. The guns in the middle struggle to earn their keep - too much for thin skinned non-dangerous game, not heavy enough to be a stopping rifle on the dangerous stuff.

The '06 doesn't seem to be struggling.

Alliant lists a max .308/RL-17/180g load at 48.7g/2641fps in a 22" barrel. For the .30-06 the max load listed by Alliant is 54.5g RL-017/2762fps in a 22" barrel. Alliant doesn't list pressures, which is one reason I prefer Hodgdon data.

Winchester 180g Power Point ammo gave me 2728fps when chrono'd out of the 22" Ruger American I had. Should be pretty close to 2800fps in a 24" barrel. Winchester's factory specs are 2700fps for the 180g .30-06 (X30064) and 2620fps for the 180g .308 Win (X3086).

Winchester also lists a 190g .30-06 load at 2750fps. Velocity and energy at 300 yards is listed at 2339fps/2309fpe with a 7.5" drop. There is no comparable .308 Win load, the 180g Power Point being the closest in terms of bulle weight but it only has 1971fps1553fpe at 300 yards with a 9.7" drop. In fact, as measured by retained energy, the .308 /180g load at 95 yards most closely resembles the .30-06 energy at 300 yards.

You're right, that is not a 100 yard advantage for the .30-06 - it's a 200+ yard advantage.

To each their own. If I was going to hunt varmints to deer/elk/moose with only two rifles they would be a .224" for the little critters and a 7mm RM, .30-06, or .300WM for the larger ones. In fact, I pretty much did that for 20 years, substituting a .22LR for the .223 and using a 7mm RM for longer shots.

As a practical matter, the vast majority of NA big game hunters will never ever need an "elephant gun", nor would such a gun (heavy, high recoil, relatively rainbow-like trajectory) be their best choice for the game they do hunt.

I was being factitious. On some threads we read about the 243 being a great ELK round. On other threads we see 300 Wbys and 375 H&H's being recommended. So, here I am with my inefficient 30-06, too big for some, too small for others.

Their load is for a longer spitzer/boat tail bullet - the speer BTSP is 0.1" longer than the Nosler 180gr PP.

As to the rest, you're in fantasy land. When you actually load to SAAMI max for both using good simulation software and a strain gauge to insure SAAMI max pressure, the gap is very small. Which should surprise no one who knows anything about internal ballistics.

Fixed that for you Exact same logic applies to the .30-06.

Not hardly. A .30-06 can shoot the same bullets to the same velocity as a .308, in rifles of very similar size and weight, or it can shoot loads the .308 Win cannot match. It can also shoot the same weight bullets faster with a flatter trajectory, as I've shown with pressure-tested 110g and 180g bullet weights. Both are a far cry from "elephant gun" weight and recoil.

You say you've taked most of your game with a 7mm RM and 175g loads. A .30-06/180g load comes closer to matching that than a .308 Win can do. I guess my quetion is, why are you using such an obsolete cartridge if you think a short action or an "elephant gun" is more appropriate?

In a .30-06 length action, that extra .1" would be a big "don't care". You're really searching for disclaimers when a 30-06 easily reaches .308 velocities at lower pressures than the .308 Win or can exceed it at equal pressures.


You are an expert and are calling the specific Hodgdon pressure and velocity data I provided "BS"? You are also stating that an extra 19% case capacity gets you nothing, given equal pressures? Wow.

When you talk about living in a fantasy land you need to look in a mirror.