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Joined: Aug 2009
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Aug 2009
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It is a darn good varmint rifle. Never seen that pic before, must be from this week? It's from a month or so back.
Life Member SCI Life Member DSC Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2003
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"What you will find when you do the math is that most of what the .30-06 gains due to extra case capacity is lost back due to poor design"
Ok, I don't want to get dragged into this, but how is the 06 "poorly designed " relative to the 308?
The only apparent difference is a 17.5 degree shoulder vs a 20 degree? Or I guess being longer is a design flaw, too?
MAP...judicious handloaders have been working with this "poor design " for a long time, just as they have with their modern bolt actions in 7x57 and 257R.
My observation: you throw out a lot of technical jargon, which sounds impressive. But you jump to conclusions based on qualitative concepts, not quantitative data.
Have a good day. I'm perfect happy to agree to disagree.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,310 Likes: 21
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,310 Likes: 21 |
My observation: you throw out a lot of technical jargon, which sounds impressive. But you jump to conclusions based on qualitative concepts, not quantitative data.
Have a good day. I'm perfect happy to agree to disagree.
He reminds me of that dude that showed up saying "I came here to educate, not listen" He even told Mule Deer that crap.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,340 Likes: 27
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,340 Likes: 27 |
Crypes, anybody who knows anything about hunting rifles/cartridges knows the .30-06 is FAR from obsolete. Quite likely It'll still be one of the top 5 big game cartridges long after all of us here are dead and gone.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
Case capacity increases the attainable energy/velocity, no question. It's not linear - if you increase your case capacity by 10%, you don't get a 10% increase in muzzle energy even though you can put in 10% more powder and thus 10% more chemical energy. You might get a 5% increase in muzzle energy depending on a variety of factors. In other words cases get less efficient as they get bigger, even as they become more powerful.
Now we come to the .30-06. It's inefficient shoulder, low MAP, and the extra barrel length consumed by the longer chamber (barrels are measured from the breach face, which makes sense from a weight perspective) all work against it relative to the .308. What you will find when you do the math is that most of what the .30-06 gains due to extra case capacity is lost back due to poor design. All that remains is a trivial difference that only manifests in a very short list of powders, none of which have been named by the .30-06 advocates, possibly because their load data is as out of date as their cartridge.
As far as coyote, his behavior in this thread is so poor that at this point anything other than calling him ignorant is a waste of time. If he want to come back, admit he knows next to nothing about interior ballistics, and is willing to learn we can try again. But as it stands I will say nothing respectful to him as respect is earned and he hasn't. I have no problem engaging with others on the topic, but ignorant boy has proven that dealing with him is a waste of time.
Blah, blah, blah. Lots of words but no real, tested loads to back up your position. Why not? (Rhetorical question as the answer is obvious - you can't find any.) i've been using a figure of 19% greater case capacity for the .30-06. If you accept 69 grains for the 30-06 and 56 grains for the .38 Win, the difference is really 23%. Use heavier bullets that seat deeper in the case, reducing interior space, and the % useful case capacity of the .30-06 increases when compared to the .308 Win. Vis a vis the .308 Win, the .30-06 is limited in performance more by the SAAMI MAP than the cartridge design. The .308 Win starts out with a 2000PSI pressure advantage. Even so, the .30-06 can beat the .308 across the board using pressure tested data. I've shown tested loads from 110g to 220g that the .308 cant match and you've shown nothing but theoretical loads. People don't shoot theoretical loads. The .308 Win is an excellent cartridge, which is why I've owned four and still own two. There are currently four .30-06 rifles in my safe. If I could only have one or the other, the .30-06 would win hands down.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2016
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"What you will find when you do the math is that most of what the .30-06 gains due to extra case capacity is lost back due to poor design"
Ok, I don't want to get dragged into this, but how is the 06 "poorly designed " relative to the 308?
The only apparent difference is a 17.5 degree shoulder vs a 20 degree? Or I guess being longer is a design flaw, too?
MAP...judicious handloaders have been working with this "poor design " for a long time, just as they have with their modern bolt actions in 7x57 and 257R.
My observation: you throw out a lot of technical jargon, which sounds impressive. But you jump to conclusions based on qualitative concepts, not quantitative data.
Have a good day. I'm perfect happy to agree to disagree.
It's not just the shoulder angle, it's also the shoulder diameter. The .308 has the same diameter as a .30-06 AI, not a .30-06. The wider, steeper shoulder reduces powder movement down the barrel, which increases efficiency. You know, I was nice enough to actually run ballistic simulations demonstrating the concepts I was describing so that people would have hard numbers in terms of velocity and pressure. That's about as quantitative as it gets. But I understand. Y'all want to have a circle jerk over the .30-06. Facts just get in the way of that sort of thing. Carry on.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 14,104
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 14,104 |
Simulations don't give reliable chronograph readings nor do they kill anything, except perhaps some of your time
Ben
Some days it takes most of the day for me to do practically nothing...
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,310 Likes: 21
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,310 Likes: 21 |
Simulations don't give reliable chronograph readings nor do they kill anything, except perhaps some of your time Right on mudhen. Problem is, I tried explaining that to our expert and it either went over his head or he completely ignored that FACT.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2016
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If y'all want to believe that there's something wrong with the simulation, that's fine. But the reality is that it's right and you're wrong and you all know it. The RL 17/26/33 high energy double base powders are some of the most studied powders out there because they give the top velocities in most bottleneck cartridges. And you'd be hard pressed to find a cartridge that's seen more quick load runs than .308. Quick Load is not wrong. If it was, hundreds if not thousands of people would have noticed and it would have gotten fixed.
Keep that circle jerk going!
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,858 Likes: 3 |
"Y'all want to have a circle jerk over the .30-06. Facts just get in the way of that sort of thing. Carry on." A great segue, inspiring objective, adult dialog. Guess you just can't help yourself.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2016
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Hey, if a bunch of people want to get misty eyed about the .30-06 because it was what great grandpappy was holding when the Germans shot him, who am I to stop them? By all means, go on.
But if you actually care about the ballistics of the cartridges, then that's a different matter.
Last edited by Llama_Bob; 06/21/17.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,310 Likes: 21
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,310 Likes: 21 |
If y'all want to believe that there's something wrong with the simulation, that's fine. It means about as much as the mythical Rocky Marciano vs Ali computer simulated fight years ago. It proves nothing.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Yeah, OK. The whole science of ballistics is wrong, and you've got it figured out. Sure.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
It's not just the shoulder angle, it's also the shoulder diameter. The .308 has the same diameter as a .30-06 AI, not a .30-06. The wider, steeper shoulder reduces powder movement down the barrel, which increases efficiency.
You know, I was nice enough to actually run ballistic simulations demonstrating the concepts I was describing so that people would have hard numbers in terms of velocity and pressure. That's about as quantitative as it gets. But I understand. Y'all want to have a circle jerk over the .30-06. Facts just get in the way of that sort of thing. Carry on.
My .30 caliber rifles are more hunting rifles than target rifles. I suspect that is true for the vast majority of .30 bolt rifles. The only “efficiency” I care about is muzzle velocity for a particular load. I’ve already shown loads from 110g to 220g where the .30-06 spanks the .308 Win hard with REAL, TESTED data and/or factory loads with fps/fpe range advantages from 100 to 300 yards depending on the load. All your blah, blah, blah nonsense is just that – you’ve provided theoretical loads but none that are REAL or TESTED and even the text of the theoretical loads you provided warns the loads may exceed SAMMI standards. Instead of blathering on, childish name calling and denigrating others, man up and discuss this like an adult - provide some REAL, TESTED load data.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 06/21/17.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2016
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Nah, I'll just call you what you are: an utter fool.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Yeah, OK. The whole science of ballistics is wrong, and you've got it figured out. Sure.
Ballistic science? Your quick load simulation model is nothing more than a hypothesis, until it is proven by empirical data. Are we to believe that the 358 Win is the equivalent or superior to the 35 Whelen. and the 7-08 is superior to the 280 and the 260 Rem is superior to the 6.5/06. and the 25 Souper and 257 Roberts are superior to the 25/06? Look, no one is saying that the 308 is not a good cartridge. And no one is saying that there is a huge practice difference in the field between it and the 06. What's your beef?
Last edited by southtexas; 06/21/17.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
Nah, I'll just call you what you are: an utter fool. Is that what passes for rational discussion in your world? No facts, just name calling?
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,310 Likes: 21
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,310 Likes: 21 |
Nah, I'll just call you what you are: an utter fool. Is that what passes for rational discussion in your world? No facts, just name calling? A page right out of the democratic playbook.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,313
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,313 |
Yeah, OK. The whole science of ballistics is wrong, and you've got it figured out. Sure.
Ballistic science? Your quick load simulation model is nothing more than a hypothesis, until it is proven by empirical data. You do realize that Quick Load produces all the loads used for all sorts of competitive shooting, much of it with the .308, right? The powders that came out on top (Rl-17 and RL-26) are heavily used precisely because they are the fastest powders in a wide range of cartridges. RL-17 + heavy bullets in .308 is arguably one of the MOST tested load types out there.
Last edited by Llama_Bob; 06/21/17.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Nah, I'll just call you what you are: an utter fool. Is that what passes for rational discussion in your world? No facts, just name calling? You got plenty of facts, and chose to ignore them so you could have your .30-06 circle jerk. So now you just get contempt.
Last edited by Llama_Bob; 06/21/17.
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