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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
For all the crap Llama_Bob threw out about the .308 Win equaling the .30-06, and all the nonsense reasons why, did anyone else wonder why he didn't provide apples to apples comparisons with bulletsmany people use in the .30-06, like a 180g Ballistic Tip? I did, but I suspected the reason Llama_Bob did not was the .308 Win didn't fare well. That, and Llama_Bob wasn't man enough to have an honest, rational, adult discussion on the matter. He apparently thought name-calling could win the day. After talking to NECO, and having them run a simulation on one of my .280 Rem140g AB loads (they were off by 6fps), I decided to buy QuickLOAD - something I had been considering for some time. Below are three simulations from QuickLOAD version 3.9.0.14, all using default data for the Nosler 180g Ballistic Tip with the exception of pressure. The .308 load uses SAAMI 62,000PSI while the .30-06 uses SAAMI 60,000PSI in one simulation and 62,000PSI in the other. The results? 2824fps = .308 Win @ 62,000PSI, 120% compressed load, 54,6g RL-26 (the only load over 2800fps) 2950fps = .30-06 @ 60,000PSI, 110% compressed load, 64.5g RL-26 (70 yard fps and fpe advantage over .308 Win) 2977fps = .30-06 @ 62,000PSI, 111% compressed load, 65.0g RL-26 (85 yard fps and fpe advantage over .308 Win) Note that I did not include all the loads listed by QuickLOAD. In the interest of brevity, I stopped at a minimum 2750fps for the .308 Win while for the .30-06 I stopped at a minimum 2900fps. I provide the data because, according to Llama_Bob, QuickLOAD is gospel - even he can't argue with the results. Also, I'm not suggesting anyone should try these laods without very careful workup. As for myself, I tend to avoid all but very lightly compressed loads. As to whether a 70 yard or 85 yard advantage in fps and fpe is really any advantage at all, I'll leave that for another post.
======================================================================================
.308 Win, 62KPSI =====================================================================
Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler BalTip 39583
Useable Case Capaci: 45.762 grain H2O = 2.971 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62000 psi, or 427 MPa
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 120.4 54.6 3.54 2824 98.5 62000 8951 1.126 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 60 110.2 48.8 3.16 2798 100.0 62000 8086 1.129 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma MRP 121.0 53.3 3.45 2785 95.9 62000 8733 1.134 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-17 109.5 48.4 3.14 2783 99.9 62000 8038 1.133 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Elcho 17 109.5 48.4 3.14 2783 99.9 62000 8038 1.133 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Somchem S365 118.1 49.5 3.21 2774 100.0 62000 7662 1.136 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-23 126.9 52.4 3.39 2769 99.6 62000 8090 1.135 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-16 117.8 48.4 3.14 2769 99.6 62000 7905 1.139 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 62 114.1 50.4 3.27 2763 98.8 62000 8020 1.143 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 217 141.0 58.6 3.79 2753 93.9 62000 8975 1.140 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP30 132.5 55.9 3.62 2750 92.4 62000 8652 1.139 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma MRP 2 132.5 55.9 3.62 2750 92.4 62000 8652 1.139 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Raufoss RA15 123.1 52.5 3.40 2750 94.2 62000 8435 1.140 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-22 123.1 52.5 3.40 2750 94.2 62000 8435 1.140 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 123.1 52.5 3.40 2750 94.2 62000 8435 1.140 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
====================================================================================
.30-06, 60KPSI =====================================================================
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler BalTip 39583
Useable Case Capaci: 59.087 grain H2O = 3.836 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
5 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 110.2 64.5 4.18 2950 99.9 60000 10719 1.138 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 217 130.4 70.0 4.53 2934 98.2 60000 11150 1.137 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma MRP 110.7 62.9 4.08 2911 98.6 60000 10658 1.143 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-25 118.8 64.4 4.17 2902 99.7 60000 10364 1.139 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP30 121.9 66.4 4.30 2901 96.4 60000 10775 1.143 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma MRP 2 121.9 66.4 4.30 2901 96.4 60000 10775 1.143 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
====================================================================================
.30-06, 62KPSI =====================================================================
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler BalTip 39583
Useable Case Capaci: 59.087 grain H2O = 3.836 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62000 psi, or 427 MPa
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
4 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 111.1 65.0 4.21 2977 100.0 62000 10738 1.122 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 217 131.3 70.5 4.57 2963 98.5 62000 11192 1.120 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma MRP 111.6 63.5 4.11 2939 98.8 62000 10715 1.126 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-25 119.8 64.9 4.21 2929 99.8 62000 10396 1.123 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma MRP 2 122.9 66.9 4.34 2929 96.8 62000 10842 1.127 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP30 122.9 66.9 4.34 2929 96.8 62000 10842 1.127 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N570 122.6 70.4 4.56 2927 90.7 62000 11456 1.124 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-50 130.3 76.8 4.97 2923 90.4 62000 11515 1.126 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon Retumbo 126.4 69.2 4.49 2921 98.9 62000 10871 1.123 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ADI AR 2225 126.4 69.2 4.49 2921 98.9 62000 10871 1.123 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 60 101.4 57.9 3.75 2921 100.0 62000 9588 1.123 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N560 113.2 63.0 4.08 2914 95.7 62000 10741 1.128 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 70 107.4 62.3 4.04 2910 99.1 62000 10369 1.123 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H870 129.4 72.8 4.72 2904 92.8 62000 11178 1.127 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-22 113.6 62.6 4.05 2903 97.6 62000 10448 1.131 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 113.6 62.6 4.05 2903 97.6 62000 10448 1.131 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Raufoss RA15 113.6 62.6 4.05 2903 97.6 62000 10448 1.131 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate MAGPRO 113.5 65.7 4.26 2902 94.0 62000 10714 1.132 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP15 116.7 62.9 4.07 2902 97.5 62000 10453 1.132 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester WXR 116.7 62.9 4.07 2902 97.5 62000 10453 1.132 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-17 100.4 57.4 3.72 2901 100.0 62000 9535 1.130 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Elcho 17 100.4 57.4 3.72 2901 100.0 62000 9535 1.130 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
Pursuant to my last post, is a 70 or 85 yard advantage in fps and fpe really much of an advantage? Maybe - it depends on the kind of game you hunt and the country you hunt them in. When we hunt antelope, the land is wide open and animals may be (and often are) found in any direction. With deer in the sage it is the same story and we often hunt elk there, too - more so than in the woods - and they, too, can come from any direction. Let's do a little math. In my last post, I provided QuickLOAD data for a .308 Win and a .30-06 using 180g Ballistic Tip bullets. For the .308 Win I used SAAMI 62KPSI pressure and for the .30-06 both SAAMI 60KPSI and non-SAAMI 62KPSI pressures. The SAAMI .30-06 was shown to have a 70 yard advantage in fps and fpe over the .308 Win and the 62KPSI .30-06 had a 85 yard advantage. If the game can come from any angle, we're talking about an advantage of 70 to 85 yards in radius for the .30-06. That adds up to a LOT of square yards. How many here have hunted game in an area the size of a football field or smaller? I have, many times. Other times I can see to a horizon miles away. In any case let's use the area of a football field (1.32 acres, 57,600 sq ft or 19,200 sq yds including the end zones) for comparison purposes. The Quickload data showed 2824fps for the .308 Win/180g BT, 2950fps for the SAAMI .30-06 and 2977fps for the 62,000PSI .30-06. At 100 yards the .308 Win can deliver 2650fps and 2807fpe to an area (circle) the size of 1.6 football fields. The SAAMI .30-06 can deliver that same velocity and energy to 170 yards for an area 2.89 times larger or equal to 4.7 football fields and the 62KPSI .30-06 to 3.52 times the area for 5.6 football fields. More importantly, even if you are not hunting a circle, the ratios remain the same for any pie-slice portion thereof. What happens if the range is longer than 100 yards? Assuming a full circle, the area in football fields each cartridge can cover with the same fps and fpe as the .308 Win is shown in the table below :
Range .308 .30-06 .30-06+P
(.308/30-06/30-06+P)
100/170/185 1.6 4.7 5.6
200/270/285 6.5 11.9 13.3
300/370/385 14.7 22.4 24.3
400/470/485 26.2 36.1 38.5
500/570/585 40.9 53.2 56.0
When I'm sitting out in the sage, the last thing I'm going to complain about is a rifle that delivers the same payload to a far greater area, yet does it with manageable recoil. The .308 Win is no slouch of a cartridge but it is no more a .30-06 equivalent than the .30-06 can equal a .300 WM.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
One last set of QuickLOAD simulations. This time barrel length is shortened from 24" to 22", which is what my rifles have. Case fill ratio is again limited to 100% to eliminate compressed loads. All other inputs are also as before, .308 Win @ SAMMI 62KPSI and .30-06 at SAAMI 60KPSI and .30-06 +P at 62KPSI. Again I stopped listing data at 2600fps for the .308 Win and 1700fps for both .30-06 simulations. The .308 Win maxes out at 2653fps while the .30-06 hits 2831fps at SAAMI and 2836 at +P pressures. For myself, I'll stick with BL-C(2), Varget and CFE223 for the .308 Win and H4350 for the .30-06. No need to change a good thing.
======================================================================================
.308 Win, 62KPSI =====================================================================
Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler BalTip 39583
Useable Case Capaci: 45.762 grain H2O = 2.971 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62000 psi, or 427 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 100 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon BL-C2 98.3 45.2 2.93 2653 99.9 62000 8146 1.103 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2520 98.5 43.8 2.84 2627 100.0 62000 7608 1.115 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Lovex D073.6 100.0 43.5 2.82 2607 100.0 60334 7587 1.128 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 100.0 41.3 2.67 2606 100.0 61506 7287 1.141 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 7 98.9 44.8 2.90 2602 98.0 62000 7927 1.113 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
====================================================================================
.30-06, 60KPSI =====================================================================
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler BalTip 39583
Useable Case Capaci: 59.087 grain H2O = 3.836 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 100 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
5 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
ReloadSwiss RS 60 100.0 57.1 3.70 2831 100.0 59207 10655 1.088 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 99.5 56.8 3.68 2822 100.0 60000 10611 1.087 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Elcho 17 99.5 56.8 3.68 2822 100.0 60000 10611 1.087 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H414 98.4 56.7 3.67 2772 98.1 60000 10712 1.101 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester 760 98.4 56.7 3.67 2772 98.1 60000 10712 1.101 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
PB Clermont PCL 511 100.0 58.0 3.76 2757 98.6 58235 10698 1.111 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 100.0 55.7 3.61 2746 99.5 58695 10460 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 52 94.3 53.1 3.44 2746 100.0 60000 9738 1.110 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4895 93.2 50.8 3.29 2736 100.0 60000 9905 1.114 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Raufoss RA11 94.0 51.2 3.32 2727 99.9 60000 9866 1.114 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 94.0 51.2 3.32 2727 99.9 60000 9866 1.114 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-15 94.0 51.2 3.32 2727 99.9 60000 9866 1.114 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 203B 94.5 51.5 3.34 2726 100.0 60000 9794 1.115 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 203 old 96.0 52.9 3.43 2720 100.0 60000 9651 1.126 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP3 96.0 52.9 3.43 2720 100.0 60000 9651 1.126 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H380 95.4 53.1 3.44 2717 99.5 60000 9962 1.118 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Rottweil R903 98.2 52.9 3.43 2714 100.0 60000 9575 1.126 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Somchem S355 98.1 52.3 3.39 2708 100.0 60000 9570 1.122 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 62 100.0 57.1 3.70 2704 99.0 53802 10496 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
Elcho TR140 - preliminary data 94.9 53.4 3.46 2702 99.5 60000 9702 1.115 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
====================================================================================
.30-06, 62KPSI =====================================================================
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler BalTip 39583
Useable Case Capaci: 59.087 grain H2O = 3.836 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62000 psi, or 427 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 100 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
4 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Elcho 17 100.0 57.1 3.70 2836 100.0 61126 10632 1.078 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-17 100.0 57.1 3.70 2836 100.0 61126 10632 1.078 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 60 100.0 57.1 3.70 2831 100.0 59207 10655 1.088 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 99.3 57.2 3.71 2800 98.4 62000 10791 1.085 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H414 99.3 57.2 3.71 2800 98.4 62000 10791 1.085 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 52 95.3 53.6 3.47 2771 100.0 62000 9784 1.094 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4895 94.3 51.4 3.33 2762 100.0 62000 9959 1.098 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
PB Clermont PCL 511 100.0 58.0 3.76 2757 98.6 58235 10698 1.111 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 95.1 51.8 3.36 2754 100.0 62000 9925 1.098 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-15 95.1 51.8 3.36 2754 100.0 62000 9925 1.098 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Raufoss RA11 95.1 51.8 3.36 2754 100.0 62000 9925 1.098 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 203B 95.6 52.0 3.37 2752 100.0 62000 9846 1.099 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N550 100.0 55.7 3.61 2746 99.5 58695 10460 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 97.0 53.4 3.46 2745 100.0 62000 9695 1.110 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP3 97.0 53.4 3.46 2745 100.0 62000 9695 1.110 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H380 96.4 53.6 3.48 2744 99.6 62000 10027 1.101 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Rottweil R903 99.2 53.4 3.46 2740 100.0 62000 9616 1.110 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Somchem S355 99.2 52.8 3.42 2733 100.0 62000 9618 1.106 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Elcho TR140 - preliminary data 95.9 54.0 3.50 2729 99.6 62000 9765 1.098 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 50 96.2 54.5 3.53 2725 98.7 62000 9918 1.098 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 7 90.9 53.1 3.44 2717 99.5 62000 9669 1.105 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4007 SSC 98.0 54.1 3.51 2715 97.8 62000 9960 1.100 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Lovex D073.6 92.0 51.6 3.34 2714 100.0 62000 9090 1.114 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 4064 96.7 51.5 3.34 2711 100.0 62000 9083 1.131 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 62 100.0 57.1 3.70 2704 99.0 53802 10496 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 93.1 49.6 3.22 2700 100.0 62000 9177 1.111 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,313
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,313 |
Well, buying a copy of quick load is a start. And I don't have any problems with the simulations you ran, although there's no reason I can see to avoid compressed loads. 120% is insane for a small bore though - 110% is a reasonable limit. Now, if we do that in .308, we get a max velocity with RL-17 of 2779 ft/s in a 24" barrel. Great.
Of course, if you look at the Nosler data you'll see every single powder they list for the 180 BT in .30-06 is SLOWER than that, except one (RL-22) which is 33 ft/s faster. The .308 beats nearly all the ,.30-06 data.
So what we find is that .308 loaded with modern techniques and Quick Load will safely give you what you THOUGHT was .30-06 max until you bought your own copy of QL. If you liked what you thought was .30-06 when you started this thread, then guess what - .308 is a ballistic twin. Now it's true that the same techniques can be used to push .30-06 too. But all the .30-06 round that supposedly made it such a versatile cartridge didn't use those techniques. You were unaware of them yourself until a few days ago.
The reality is the .308 is the ballistic equal or superior of all the .30-06 loads everyone gets excited about. If you think .30-06 is good, you have to acknowledge that .308 is exactly the same.
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,840
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,840 |
Even if we were to accept your premise that QL is inerrant, which I reject. Your argument is that modern powders have made the 308 equivalent to previous 06 loads, and hence is equal. One could use the same logic to assert that the 30/06 is equivalent to the 300 H&H, since current 30/06 loads equal the originally introduced loads in the H&H.  The simple fact is that the 30/06 has more case capacity than the 308. So all other variables held equal, the 06 has a higher velocity potential. Whether the difference is significant is subjective. But you do get a gold star for getting all the way through a post without calling anyone a clown.
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Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,313
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,313 |
Even if we were to accept your premise that QL is inerrant, which I reject. Your argument is that modern powders have made the 308 equivalent to previous 06 loads, and hence is equal. One could use the same logic to assert that the 30/06 is equivalent to the 300 H&H, since current 30/06 loads equal the originally introduced loads in the H&H. And that argument would be more or less correct, although the gap between best possibly .30-06 and book .300 H&H is bigger than the difference between best possible .308 and .30-06. A modern .30-06 AI would be required to really be the twin of the .300 H&H. But the same basic logic applies. It's the same bullet at the same velocity. There's no way for the animal to know the difference - they can't feel nostalgia. Anything the .300 H&H was used for historically, a .30-06 AI could be used for now.
Last edited by Llama_Bob; 07/04/17.
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...and anything the 30/06AI could be used for, the 30/06 could be used for..
..and anything the 308/06 could be used for, the 308 could be used for..
..and anything the 308 could be used for, the 7-08 could be used for..
.and anything the 7-08 could be used for, the 260 could be used for..
```ad nauseam..
Yes, the is a LOT of overlap in cartridges today.
And the bullet is more important than the headstamp..
But that doesn't mean that they are all equivalent.
You're debating in circles....
Last edited by southtexas; 07/04/17.
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...and anything the 30/06AI could be used for, the 30/06 could be used for..
..and anything the 308/06 could be used for, the 308 could be used for..
..and anything the 308 could be used for, the 7-08 could be used for..
.and anything the 7-08 could be used for, the 260 could be used for..
```ad nauseam..
Well, it's obvious you've made up your mind, but the reality is that you CAN do what a .300 H&H mag does with a .260. My original point had more to do with the .308 being a ballistic twin of the .30-06, but comparisons across calibers are informative too. The typical .300 H&H factory load is a 180gr premium bullet with a velocity of between 2800 and 2950 and a G1 BC between 0.45 and 0.5. Top SAAMI hunting load in the .260 is a 160gr Weldcore at 2750 with a BC of just over 0.5. The H&H has a bit of an advantage in velocity and cross section, but a minor disadvantage in BC and a HUGE disadvantage in sectional density and thus penetration. The .260 will keep that bullet in the manufacturer's velocity window out past 400y at sealevel, farther at altitude. There aren't a whole heck of a lot of ethical shots that come up past that. And I know from substantial experience that 160gr .264 premiums give better performance on elk+ sized game than 180gr .308s do. Now, lest someone get huffy, yes I hot-rodded the .260 and left the .300 H&H at it's usual performance level. The point here is that the difference between careful loading and generic loadings is bigger than the differences between cartridges.
Last edited by Llama_Bob; 07/04/17.
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. The point here is that the difference between careful loading and generic loadings is bigger than the differences between cartridges.
Thank you Captain Obvious.
Last edited by southtexas; 07/04/17.
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. The point here is that the difference between careful loading and generic loadings is bigger than the differences between cartridges.
Thank you Captain Obvious. Well, once people admit that there's no real difference between what people actually shoot out of a .300 H&H and top loads in a .260, the obvious question is who wants to tote around the .300 H&H (or .30-06, for that matter)? Sure, if nostalgia is you thing go for it. But in terms of practical hunting, why not carry the lighter and softer recoiling gun?
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If you don't get it L lama there is no point it in talking about it..
Molon Labe
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I really would like to know how many hundred head of big game the "experts" have really taken..
Molon Labe
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[ But in terms of practical hunting, why not carry the lighter and softer recoiling gun? Good grief, you make a different, unrelated point in every post. What does this have to do with your original contention that the 308 is equivalent to the 30/06? no one has said that a cannon is necessary to kill a deer. You say "because I can load a smaller cartridge to a higher pressure and make it perform like a larger cartridge at a lower pressure, that makes them equivalent cartridges". A jeep and a Corvette can both be driven at 50 mph. That doesn't make them equivalent.
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[ But in terms of practical hunting, why not carry the lighter and softer recoiling gun? Good grief, you make a different, unrelated point in every post. What does this have to do with your original contention that the 308 is equivalent to the 30/06? Don't get all huffy. YOU were the one who brought up the calibers in question. That said it has EVERYTHING to do with the .308 vs. .30-06. The .308 can do the exact same thing the .30-06 does in a lighter gun with less recoil. The difference isn't as dramatic as the calibers you mentioned, but it's still there. So why would I want the .30-06?
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As many have acknowledged from the beginning of the discussion, there is not a lot of practical difference in the field performance of the 308 and the 30/06. that is NOT the same as saying they are equivalent.
Using your logic; Why would I want a 308. when a 7-08 do the same thing?.
Then one could argue that a 260 will do the same as a 7-08, and so on.
Where do you draw the line?
My favorite whitetail cartridge is a handloaded 257 Roberts. I think it's a sweet spot when one considers trajectory, recoil, and effectiveness. I've killed deer with everything from a 223 to a 300 Mag. If the right bullet is used, i can't say i have seen a big difference in the results.
BUT that is NOT the same as saying the cartridges are all equivalent.
One last time: the 06 case has more capacity that the 308 case. Loaded to the same pressures, the 06 has the ability to push the same bullet at a higher velocity. Ergo, they are NOT equivalent. Now, whether the difference is significant, is a personal judgement.
Last edited by southtexas; 07/04/17.
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So why would I want the .30-06? Who cares what you want/don't want ? I don't and that's the reason I quit this thread a while back. The only reason I read it now was to see what southtexas said. As S T said, if the 308 is = to 06, 7-08 is = to 308, 260 is = to 7-08, 257 R is = to 260 THEN the 257 R is = to 30-06 !! "Two things = to the same thing ARE = to each other." Mathematical Fact. Don't waste your time....I'm out for good. Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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That was a darn good year, Guy!
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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That was a darn good year, Guy! Thanks! Indeed it was. I did bump up to a 200 gr Partition for the grizzly hunt. Regards, Guy
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Well, buying a copy of quick load is a start. And I don't have any problems with the simulations you ran, although there's no reason I can see to avoid compressed loads. 120% is insane for a small bore though - 110% is a reasonable limit. Now, if we do that in .308, we get a max velocity with RL-17 of 2779 ft/s in a 24" barrel. Great.
Of course, if you look at the Nosler data you'll see every single powder they list for the 180 BT in .30-06 is SLOWER than that, except one (RL-22) which is 33 ft/s faster. The .308 beats nearly all the ,.30-06 data.
So what we find is that .308 loaded with modern techniques and Quick Load will safely give you what you THOUGHT was .30-06 max until you bought your own copy of QL. If you liked what you thought was .30-06 when you started this thread, then guess what - .308 is a ballistic twin. Now it's true that the same techniques can be used to push .30-06 too. But all the .30-06 round that supposedly made it such a versatile cartridge didn't use those techniques. You were unaware of them yourself until a few days ago.
The reality is the .308 is the ballistic equal or superior of all the .30-06 loads everyone gets excited about. If you think .30-06 is good, you have to acknowledge that .308 is exactly the same.
There is nothing inherently "wrong" with compressed loads, I simply prefer not to use them or to use minimally compressed loads. That way I don't have to crimp or deal with bullets being pushed out by the load expanding if neck tension isn't enough to keep the bullet in place. I don't have a long drop tube so my way helps keep my reloading issues to a minimum. Besides, compressed loads don't yield all that much extra velocity. Diminishing returns... Once again you cherry pick your data, providing .308 data but not .30-06 data with the same inputs. Let me help out. You claim a .308 Win/180g/110% load will hit 2779fps in a 24" barrel. OK, a SAAMI 60,000PSI.30-06/180g/110% load can do 2943fps for plus 164fps over your highest velocity for the .308. The .308 Win cannot keep up. Here's the simulation for the .30-06, 180g, 110%, 60,000PSI load. Loads below 2850fps are not listed.
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler BalTip 39583
Useable Case Capaci: 59.087 grain H2O = 3.836 cm³Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
5 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 110.0 64.4 4.17 2943 99.9 59514 10713 1.142 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 60 100.4 57.4 3.72 2896 100.0 60000 9555 1.139 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma MRP 110.0 62.5 4.05 2889 98.4 58486 10610 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 106.5 61.8 4.00 2882 98.8 60000 10314 1.140 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Elcho 17 99.5 56.8 3.68 2876 100.0 60000 9502 1.146 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-17 99.5 56.8 3.68 2876 100.0 60000 9502 1.146 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-16 106.5 56.5 3.66 2853 100.0 60000 9384 1.156 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Somchem S365 106.8 57.9 3.75 2852 100.0 60000 9066 1.156 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 7828 SSC 110.0 61.5 3.99 2850 95.4 59740 10242 1.145 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Here's what I get for the .308 Win, changing only the max pressure to 62,000PSI. It is a bit faster than what you show but still 151fps behind the .30-06. Loads below 2700fps are not listed.
Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler BalTip 39583
Useable Case Capaci: 45.762 grain H2O = 2.971 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62000 psi, or 427 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
ReloadSwiss RS 60 110.0 48.7 3.15 2792 100.0 61474 8082 1.133 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-17 109.5 48.4 3.14 2784 99.9 62000 8038 1.133 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Elcho 17 109.5 48.4 3.14 2784 99.9 62000 8038 1.133 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester 760 108.4 48.4 3.13 2730 96.6 62000 7953 1.148 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H414 108.4 48.4 3.13 2730 96.6 62000 7953 1.148 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 52 104.6 45.6 2.95 2728 100.0 62000 7375 1.153 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
PB Clermont PCL 511 110.0 49.4 3.20 2713 97.1 60141 7977 1.159 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 103.1 43.5 2.82 2706 99.7 62000 7475 1.164 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N550 110.0 47.4 3.07 2706 98.6 59628 7854 1.173 ! Near Maximum !
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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