Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing # of lands and grooves

3,4,5,6 is there some secret formula that determines the right number for each caliber? Can some one enlighten me?

I don't think anyone can say one is better than the other. Or the style of lands, such as 5R. A good barrel will shoot well. The big thing now days is cut rifled, and most of them are 4 groove.

It's always better to have more lands than grooves..

Rifling geometry is important in that the grooves have to be wide enough for the lands to do their job, and overall quality is important in the evenness of the bore and the uniformity of the lands and grooves, but many of the "new and improved" features that have been touted as the "best' in the last 40 years are neither truly new and are not actually an improvement.

In fact, the largest improvements in barrel-making is the advent of new and better ways to make the machines and the cutters, so today's barrels are outstanding in their uniformity compared to the run of the mill barrels of only 40 years ago. The improvement we have is all about overall quality, but not "5R', not "gain twist", not 6 grooves, not 8 grooves, not micro-groove, not ratchet rifling, not buttress rifling, not polygon rifling, and not any else, other than quality.

The average barrel of today is better than the average barrel of the 1960s, because of the machines we have to make them with, and the machines we have to make tool heads with.

Some types of rifling are "better" because it's easier to maintain a higher standard of uniformity in making the cutters themselves. Better cutters make more uniform bores and grooves, but the actual styling of rifling is less important then most gun buyers believe.
If one new detail of barrel making were truly "better' it would replace all others in only 5 years. And we'd see every national and international record broken by the new and improved barrel, but such new history has not happened. Why? Because a shop making Enfield rifling and making them to a standard of + or - .00001" is going to shoot as well as a "5R" barrel made to the same tolerances, and we see records held and broken with all different type of rifling from all over the world, not just the USA. Please remember, there are some outstanding shooters from other nations that win competitions and take gold medals too, and most are not shooting "New and Improved" barreled made in America.

Furthermore, a lot of guys think they need first class barrels when in truth K-Mart quality is more in line with their skill level.

+100 Very well said. Particularly:

"If one new detail of barrel making were truly "better' it would replace all others in only 5 years. And we'd see every national and international record broken by the new and improved barrel, but such new history has not happened."

As a custom rifle smith, I am always getting guys that say they want such and such style, brand, etc... because they read on the internet it is the latest and greatest and the truth is:



+200 These are the guys that want a tack driver at 1000 yards but have no place to shoot that far and have only ever shot 200 yards with their dad's old 30-06.

l agree.i have lots of people tell me about killing at 500 yds.we go to shoot and like always 200 yds is there range.whem it gets to 500 yds forget it .then first thing is blame gun or scope.funny thing is i can hit with it.why i built it,know how to shoot that range.oh 1000,in there dream land.my 2 cents

A few years back I wanted a truck gun and picked up a 1906 Gutaf 6.5 x 55 Swede. Chopped the barrel to 24 inches, butter knife bolt handle installed, and whittled out a stock. Its 110 year old military barrel will do around 0.56 moa 3-shot groups every time out with 140 grain slugs. Needs a new bluing job, but it will not be relegated to a truck gun. Obviously, someone 100+ years ago, knew how to ream a barrel.

A good barrel is a good barrel.

There were good barrels made 100+ years ago, just not as a rule. Like today, if a guy had the scratch to afford one he could have one- a barrel that would shoot right alongside all but the extremely best barrels made today. Pope, Schalk, Peterson, Niedner, et al were makers who could do it for you, at rates not much more than today's rates (adjusted for inflation). The difference was those guys achieved perfection through shear determination, patience, skill, feel, and pride- not 21st century technology. The reason you never hear about a bad Pope barrel was because if the finished product didn't meet his high standards it got scrapped. That was the mindset back then.

My point is, it doesn't matter who/where/how a barrel gets made. What matters is the care taken and how high the QC standards are and if said standards are rigidly adhered to.

I believe and agree with all that has been said above. However, with reference solely to the number of grooves, are there particular advantages to specific applications?

For example, as a 6 groove barrel has narrower lands does the throat get eroded faster than it would with a 4 groove barrel with correspondingly wider lands? I do not know but would like to hear the experience of others.

Thank you.

I have not seen (while bore scoping) any significant difference BUT to compare the mix and match that comes through the shop seems very unscientific in that unless the load, barrel steel, reamer, and round count were identical, it would not really be a fair comparison. I believe erosion is caused mostly from heat and pressure, I would think that barrel steel quality is probably the biggest determining factor but I am by no means an expert, simply thinking out loud as I type, maybe I am totally wrong and should keep my thoughts to myself.

The reason I ask originally is I am thinking about building a 7 x 57 Mauser and looking at barrel makers websites there are so many configurations of lands and grooves available that it would seem there might be a formula to determine which is best. Sounds like it is just personal preference as to what works best?

You'll likely get tired of shooting before you burn the throat out of a 7x57 regardless of rifling pattern.

JMP, your last post makes me smile.

May I point something out, just in passing?

You said. " looking at barrel makers websites there are so many configurations of lands and grooves available"

100% correct.

So....if a barrel maker offers all these options, and if any would be unsatisfactory, would they still offer them? Knowing that people would want to return them for refunds or replacement?

As I stated above, and as Gnoahhh said too, it's about quality. I'd recommend a 1-9.5" twist as was standard on the original 7X57. If the quality of the barrel is up to a high standard, all will do just fine and probably shoot smaller groups than you can. Unless you are a world class shooter,................. in which case they will shoot as well as you can.