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#12180352 - 08/01/17 rechambering question connundrum  
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Here's a chamber schematic from a cerrosafe mold I made from an old barrel.

It's probably a 44 Henry rimfire which had a case length of about 0.9" and an OAL of 1.345" with a 0.446 heeled bullet.

The dimensions shown are probably +/- a 0.001, because I expect the chamber should have fit that 0.446 bullet even though the casting measured 0.445, but that's what I got.

[Linked Image]

Anyway, the conundrum.

I want to rechamber the gun without setting the barrel back any if possible, and use the bore/groove as is considering it will take a 44 cal lead bullet nicely. I can fit a cartridge with a OAL of about 1.6" max which is represented by the thicker unlabeled line.

***All blackpowder loading****

A 44 special will clean up a lot of the old chamber, but leave a leade/throat of 0.125" at 0.445 diameter and the tapered section of 0.105" down to the threaded bore, essentially a total of 0.23", most of which is 0.015" larger than bullet diameter.

A 44-40 will clean up the old chamber up until where the neck meets the shoulder of the 44-40, then it will be overrsized by a thousandth up until the last 0.08" of the tapered section where the chamber measures about 0.444. I assume more throat would have to be cut to properly seat without jamming a bullet in the lands? What diameter would you cut it for?

A 44 mag will clean up the old chamber all the way to the start of where the lead tapers, essentially leaving the 0.105" taper. Same as the 44-40, I assume more throat would have to be cut to properly seat without jamming a bullet in the lands? What diameter would you cut it for? As it is, a top band of 0.10" would essentially kiss the lands. so, as the 44-40, I assume more throat would have to be cut to properly seat without jamming a bullet in the lands? What diameter would you cut it for?

What are my pros and cons for the scenarios given? Any other scenarios pop into your head?

Last edited by RWE; 08/01/17.


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#12180657 - 08/01/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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I like the idea of the .44 Mag with a 7 degree leade and only load it with Holy Black..

If going that route, use this bullet; Sage LINK

That should be a great little gun!

Ed

Last edited by APDDSN0864; 08/01/17.

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#12182835 - 08/02/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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Well, upon looking at chamber dimensions versus cartridge dimensions, I'm thinking 44-40 is the way to go. The remnants of the current chamber's leade should all but disappear with the new throat. And the theoretical overage in the neck area is quickly diminishing in the 10 thousandths of an inch.

Nice bullet though, Ed. The gun has a 24 twist, so it should handle any pistol bullet I can cast for it, although I'd probably be looking for something a little shorter on the nose, maybe even a WFN.



#12183961 - 08/02/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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Yup, with a 1:24" twist barrel, you'll definitely want a short, fat bullet.

No flies on a .44-40! I just peeked at LBT's website. That's a gorgeous 240gr WFN on there!

Ed


"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell

#12196640 - 08/09/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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Happy Birthday Ed !


kk alaska

Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
#12198075 - 08/10/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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Yes, HBD Ed toomanyletters.

Well, I post now with egg on face.

Apparently, I mismeasured the bore diameter; I discovered the issue when using cylinder gauges to get a better feel for the diameter of the required floating pilot for the chamber reamer.

The bore is 0.412, groove is 0.429 The 3 wide lands in the bore made it interesting to measure, and once I noticed the bore difference, I reslugged the barrel to ensure I had the groove right.

Anyway, its looking much more better for lead with the 0.008 deep rifling, rather than the 0.005.

Still looking at the 44-40 for the cartridge, now the big question is if I can find time to do it before deer season....



#12198346 - 08/10/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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Originally Posted by RWE
...Yes, HBD Ed toomanyletters.... now the big question is if I can find time to do it before deer season....


Thanks for the birthday wishes. grin

That deep of a groove should be ideal with a relatively soft bullet.

As to finding the time. You can sleep when you're dead. grin

Do it now ! We in the peanut gallery are an impatient lot are an impatient lot and live vicariously through other's industriousness. laugh

Ed


"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell

#12198545 - 08/10/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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I like casting pure lead bullets. The SAA's and KT's I run through my 45 fast twist absolutely destroy stuff.



#12198556 - 08/10/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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Any HINT of what that barrel was originally hung off of ?

Fastest twist for an original .44 Henry RF would be a 1 in 26",.....and as the entire planet adapted that generic, very popular cartridge into it's CF iterations, the rifling twist rates didn't get a whole lot faster.

The 14" TPI callout is intriguing, to say the least.

GTC


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#12198834 - 08/10/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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This, but steel frame, and with a tang sight and barrel sight instead of the neat rotator.



And I suspect your 26" twist is more accurate.

I ran the bore and got about 25, but figured it was probably 24. Shoulda went the other way on the guess.



#12199689 - 08/10/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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That would be a fine design to replicate,.....VERY well suited for the low, slow, thrifty and quiet applications we've been discussing here.
GTC


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#12199765 - 08/10/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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I'll take some pics on a graph paper background. And take some other measurements for reference.

The simplicity was down right genius.



#12199981 - 08/10/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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Given today's quality steels, heat treating, investment casting and CNC machining technologies, that would be a great rifle to replicate and probably not break the bank. I'd buy one on a heartbeat chambered for .45 Colt. . Oh, and another chambered in .30 Reese. grin

Ed

Last edited by APDDSN0864; 08/10/17.

"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell

#12200095 - 08/11/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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In its current configuration, it would need to have the action lengthened another 1/2" + to be able to load a straightwalled cartridge of the length and diameter of a 45 Colt.

I did a lot of measuring (hopefully better than my initial bore measurement) just to see what would fit the action as is. When making the turn from the top, any type of bottleneck facilitates the effort, therefore the 44-40 is good, but the 45 colt, with its greater base diameter and no bottleneck, is too snug to make the turn unless you deep seated to cut the OAL. The 44 spec and mag case, though straightwalled, are less in diameter and can be loaded shorter as well, so they would fit.

I had originally considered this as a donor for my experimental "25 Grinner" the alternative to the 22 rimfire, but once it was in hand, I started to reconsider, just because the bore looked too good to reline. Of course, as easy as it is to switch barrels, the Grinner may still come to fruition....

Any of the 32 cal rimmed pistol rounds, up to the 32 H&R mag, and 32 fed would fit OK, pressure permitting.

Again, another 1/2" in length would help all the way around for anyone thinking of going gonzo from scratch on a colt or for a more friendly 44-40.


It's perfect for the Grinner.



#12200219 - 08/11/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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Question, ....
* Good solid half cock / carry position ( fly in the tumbler) ?
Got a request,....if you photo shoot that action, use 1/4" Staedler grade grid paper,....there's a lot of this "graph paper" out there that's close but no cigar,....I just had to deal with some DWGs that, while portraying something in SOME sorta' "scale", turned out to be a real grind to build out of conventionally sized / dimension stock,....what a damned hair pull that turned out to be.

GTC


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#12200287 - 08/11/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: crossfireoops]  
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Originally Posted by crossfireoops
Question, ....
* Good solid half cock / carry position ( fly in the tumbler) ?
Got a request,....if you photo shoot that action, use 1/4" Staedler grade grid paper,....there's a lot of this "graph paper" out there that's close but no cigar,....I just had to deal with some DWGs that, while portraying something in SOME sorta' "scale", turned out to be a real grind to build out of conventionally sized / dimension stock,....what a damned hair pull that turned out to be.

GTC


Good solid half cock is there. And the action won't drop unless its in half cock.

When I take the pic, I'll remove the side plate and get all the guts too. I haven't examined in detail the trigger mechanism, but if its as simple as the rest, I'll disassemble the internals too for pics.

I got Staedler at the house.

You can handle Autocad files? I may just draw it up and send that with the pics..



And I believe the 32-20 and 25-20 would work as is, but again, an extra length in the action wouldn't hurt there either.

Last edited by RWE; 08/11/17.


#12200392 - 08/11/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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Negative on the Autocad,.....certainly WOULD like to see a good example of that action go into a CMM setup, and be recorded in such though,...
gonna' dig through my De Hass library, and see what the old man recorded about this one.
As far as stretching / lengthening the action ?
No interest AT ALL here in re-engineering ( or trying to) something already that well designed for SHORT, low pressure cartridges, which to me seem to be the easiest part of the damned equation,.....
To start with, how the hell are you going to easily remove the longer cartridges, using that particular (and perfectly ADEQUATE to the original design parameters) extractor set up ?
Part of that rifle's appeal, to me is the very HIGH comb line. Lengthening the thing trashes that nice feature,....and it quickly starts looking goofy,....
LowWalls, 44s, and 44 1/2s, and Ballards are there for a reason.

GTC


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#12200424 - 08/11/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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the longer cases can be slid back once its brought back to the extractors limit into the groove at the back of the action, which is wide enough to handle the rimmed cases - as opposed to lifting straight out as planned on by design. The block has a small ramp at its back which will guide the rimmed end up as its withdrawn. It's a nimble finger option.

If one was trying not to shoot a heeled bullet and wanted to use the existing barrel, I don't know if there's a cartridge option that can be done, considering the generous chamber, without setting it back. I was just entertaining options that I could do in house.

The smart thing would be to reline or rebarrel into a more svelt cartridge.


I've no desire to rework the gun either, other than barrel work.



#12200584 - 08/11/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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Why not solder in a concentric, machine tool friendly steel (or better yet REAL wrought iron,) CHAMBER SLEEVE and, having paid very close attention to properly handling the "jump zone", re-chamber THAT barrel ?
Think Steam Locomotive, v. Rocket Ship.

GTC

Last edited by crossfireoops; 08/11/17.

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#12200672 - 08/11/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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Makes the 44 Russian or a conservative 44 special easy peasy.



#12200911 - 08/11/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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I've got what's left of a Belgian built "American Bulldog", chambered in .44 S&W Short, ( it's on the "bucket list" for wake up, somewhen).....cutest cartridge I've ever seen, ....looks like an overgrown .22 Short. No flies on a .38 S&W short, .32 S.W short, either,.....

GTC


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#12215334 - 08/17/17 Re: rechambering question connundrum [Re: RWE]  
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Interesting old piece.


I am..........disturbed.

I always wondered what the job application is like at Hooters. Do they just give you a bra and say, “Here, fill this out?”




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