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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 102
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 102 |
I'm going to be an observer on a cape buffalo hunt in Africa for the first time next year, but I've been told that a cull hunt in my price range is very probable. Like other posters here, I can't afford to purchase a double rifle, but it would be a dream come true to have one over my shoulder for what could be a once in a lifetime hunt on the mystical dark continent. I've been lucky to have friends who've let me shoot their double rifles over the years, so the double rifle bug has been growing in my system for awhile and the booking of the hunt has only made it worse. Since I don't want to have to sell body parts or prized firearms to be able to afford one, I made the decision to build a double rifle conversion after many hours of research and deliberation. It'll be chambered in 585HE, a cartridge I've become very fond of, have been reloading for and is more than capable of taking down any animal on this planet with a well placed shot. After reading several books on the subject and acquiring the needed parts, I should have a tested and reliable double rifle ready for the hunt. I've been building rifles for awhile now and I think building and hunting with a double rifle in Africa would fulfill my dreams, especially if I'm lucky enough to be able to take a buffalo with it.
If Nobody Cares about Winning, Why Do They Keep Score ? VL
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 437
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2017
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Now although I love my double and would smash the gates of hell down with her, I've only once not taken my 375H&H Magnum Winchester M70 lefty. From a client perspective it is all you need. I know for a fact that a 300 grain Hornady Heavy Magnum will punch clean thru a bull Jumbo's head. I've done it.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 942
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2007
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I've owned a couple double rifles, all in 9.3x74r. Some have been pretty good shooters, two were definitely not. My current is a Chauis, with a single trigger. I prefer single trigger versions, because I've shot a single trigger double shotgun for more than 50 years, and cannot retrain myself to go to the other trigger. I've shot a lot of targets and a few whitetail with my doubles. A gun needs to fit. My first and second doubles did not fit me and beat the tar out of my face and shoulder. I've owned a couple of 375's and 416's so I'm familiar with recoil. My current rifle needs another 1/4 to 3/8 inch off the butt to fit just right in shirt sleeves. It isn't bad in the recoil department. It is also pretty accurate, meaning I can put six rounds inside a bit over 2 inch circle at 100 yards off sticks. That is on par with what I could do with my other rifles off sticks. It's handy and shoots well. I'm going to get that little bit of wood off the but, and maybe a little more so it will fit with a jacket. I would take it to Africa if I were going, again. I carry it in black bear season here. I'm past the mystique, but I do like nice well made guns. It's probably vanity, if I cant be pretty to look at, at least my guns will be. Bfly
Be nice and work hard, you never have enough time or friends.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,030
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2002
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Gun fit is everything. Doesn't make a [bleep] of difference what type of action it is. I had a Beretta 686 o/u 9.3x74R that was one of the most viscous recoiling rifles I've owned. Did't fit worth a damn, and every shot felt like I was getting punched in the jaw. I currently have 9.3x74R's in a Ruger No.1, and a Simson drilling. I can shoot both as long as I feel, and shoot them well. They fit me. The only mystique I see, is does the gun fit you, and are you comfortable and confident with it, and shoot it well? Action type is way down the list for me.
Jeff
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
I've owned a couple double rifles, all in 9.3x74r. Some have been pretty good shooters, two were definitely not. My current is a Chauis, with a single trigger. I prefer single trigger versions, because I've shot a single trigger double shotgun for more than 50 years, and cannot retrain myself to go to the other trigger. I've shot a lot of targets and a few whitetail with my doubles. Interesting. I happened to see a well-used but decent-shape Chapuis double in 9.3X74R on Gunbroker today... looks like a good deal, I'm tempted! As for double vs single triggers, some of my double shotguns have single selective triggers (including my first and most-used double, an Ithaca-SKB 200E) but I've acquired several double trigger shotguns and I far prefer the double trigger setup. Unlike you, I found the transition from single to double trigger isn't difficult. A gun needs to fit. My first and second doubles did not fit me and beat the tar out of my face and shoulder. I've owned a couple of 375's and 416's so I'm familiar with recoil. My current rifle needs another 1/4 to 3/8 inch off the butt to fit just right in shirt sleeves. It isn't bad in the recoil department. It is also pretty accurate, meaning I can put six rounds inside a bit over 2 inch circle at 100 yards off sticks. That is on par with what I could do with my other rifles off sticks. It's handy and shoots well. I'm going to get that little bit of wood off the but, and maybe a little more so it will fit with a jacket. I would take it to Africa if I were going, again. I carry it in black bear season here. Interesting to read that. Clearly I'm not the only one to take some serious damage from an ill-fitting gun! I'm past the mystique, but I do like nice well made guns. Bfly I think that's where I am on this issue, BF. I'm not saying I won't buy or hunt with a double again, but the mystique of the double rifle has passed for me.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
Single trigger doubles??? Philistine!
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,856
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,856 |
Single trigger doubles??? Philistine! And a bit risky to boot. Part of the close-in advantage of a DR is the independent firing mechanisms the double trigger lockwork/double barrel arrangement provide. I recognize failure of a 2nd shot with a single trigger is uncommon, but getting trampled by an elephant or a buffalo is a once in a lifetime event - even rarer but less desirable!
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty of give me death! P. Henry
Deus vult!
Rhodesians all now
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 32
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 32 |
I've only checked out a few Sabatti's that were a total turds. The list is long of Sabatti owners that cant get them to shoot well. Should be able to get a Chapuis used for under 5K if you look around. It should be a much higher quality gun. I had one in 9.3 that shot decent. Only got rid of it as a 375flanged in a Heym popped up that I could not pass up the deal.
Recently had a 400/360 nitro come up for a good price that I have been playing with. So back in the 9.3 game for the moment. Sweet shooting small double.
I agree with the others, If a double does not fit it will be a miserable experience. There have been some very good deals popping up for British guns this year. (Many too short for me) That would be my recommendation if you find one that fits and shoots well.
I personally have no desire to hunt Buffalo/Elephant ever again with anything but a double. Yes you will loose some shot opportunity but I personally prefer to have to get closer for the shot. Much more enjoyable to me. The one buffalo I shot with a scoped rifle at 70 yards was my least favorite. Just seamed too easy.
Last edited by Mckay; 08/21/17.
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 4,662
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 4,662 |
Mack, I just bought a Merkel 140 in 308 (odd, I know) for a song , just so I can shoot a ton of rounds through it and get my double-rifle Mojo back with the open sights.
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 32
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 32 |
Perfect! Sounds like a ball for sure. I have wanted a 7mm-30cal double for some time. Yet to find the right one come up. Will be interested to hear in how she shoots!
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
I recall someone, some years ago, posting some pictures of a 303 British double rifle. I loved that rifle.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,144 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,144 Likes: 1 |
I recall someone, some years ago, posting some pictures of a 303 British double rifle. I loved that rifle. IIRC, Gunner500 has one. DF
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
Yes, gunner. Now that I think about it, I think he had it on the pig hunt I went on a few years back.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
I believe it's a Manton with exposed hammers. Lovely piece..
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
Gunner's is a Rodda, IIRC. Though of course it was probably made by someone else & sold by Rodda.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
With that in mind, I was also not able/willing to spend upwards of $10,000.00 to obtain a good double rifle, and that's the kind of price range we are talking about. Until I was at DSC in January of 2015, and my PH, John Sharp, told me that I should go down to Larry Pancake's booth a couple rows over from John's, and look at the very nice 9.3x74R Sabatti double rifles he had for sale. I asked John specifically if he would recommend that caliber for buffalo, and he said he had no doubt of it, provided I could load it with 300 gr Swift A-frames. So I went down the line, handled one of Larry's BEAUTIFUL rifles, and as Jorge1 will attest (he was there, the enabling sonofabitch, goading me into buying it!) it was one helluva deal. Larry really, really wanted me to take the rifle to Africa, shoot a buff with it, and then write an article about it. He was so eager that he told me he would sell it for an obscenely low price. How could I say no?
I recall how pleased you were to acquire that rifle. Not a double, but I had one of my grail guns rudely educate me this past spring. A gent showed up at the Campfire Hog Hunt with a Blaser K95 -- which have always felt to me like magic wands. This one was a 9.3x74. The first clue was its owner got scoped on the first shot with it, and not lightly scoped either, a deep cut over the eye. He offered to let folks shoot it, and I took him up on it, with a mix of anticipation and trepidation. I sat down and crudely jerked the trigger. The little rifle smacked the crap put of me. I didn't bleed but it was no fun at all. Conversely, many folks complain about Ruger #1's in heavy calibers. We had a safari rifle shoot planned for one of the gatherings, and I bought a NECG rear sight & fiber optic front for the #1 in .458 WM. I eyeballed the sight adjustment as best I could, took it to the range with a load of 70gr of Varget under 500 Hornadys, and fired 3 shots as fast as I could load, aim, & fire - offhand. All the shots landed in a 4-5 inch circle at 50 yards. I stared at the target for a bit, then quickly packed up the rifle, before I jinxed it
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
So many of us have been romanced by tales told by Ruark and Hemingway and Capstick and God knows everybody else about how fine it is to take one's trophies with a double rifle that we have lost sight of the first rule of being a good rifle hunter, which is to say, you can hit with it and kill your quarry cleanly every time, or near as dammit. If you read those authors a bit more closely, you'll note that Hemingway and Ruark and Capstick did a damn sight more shooting with a bolt-action rifle than with their big doubles. How the double rifle became the "classic" for African hunting is a bit of a mystery to me, when I re-read these authors who are the supposed champions of the dictum. W.M. Bell, John "Pondoro" Taylor, Craig Boddington, and many other African hunting icons have demonstrated in their own shooting and subsequent writing that a good magazine (bolt-action) rifle was the best rifle for most situations and most hunters. Ruark,Crapstick and Hemingway were all raging alcoholics who relied on pen ink and spin merchantry literary license to make a living. Then you have people who were actual disciplined hard core hunters including those who relied on rifles to make a living. Frederick Selous, - offloaded his SxSs replaced with single shots; Gibbs Farquharson, Holland & Holland Woodward pat., and .425 Westley Richards mauser. WDM Bell - had two SxS rifles .318 WR and .450/400 , but throughout his career relied heavily on a range of bolt rifles for a number of practical reasons. Reliability was of high importance to Bell in remote Africa. SxS rifles did not offer that. His SxS proved unreliable as did other SxS rifles he witnessed other people using....He still praised the SxS for its beauty and allure, but thats about it. To employ a SxS as his day in-day out primary go-to safari business tool & life saver, was out of the question. A problematic SxS was capable of severely crippling a safari, even the speediest option could take months requiring a rifle be despatched with a runner to a populated centre in hope (but no guarantee) of finding a shop capable of doing such specialised repairs. Harry Manners - shot his first ele with 10.75mm mauser, followed by his commercial ivory career of 1000 elephants and buffalo for meat using pre64 M70 .375 H&H. which he then continued using as a PH. Harry Selby - initially a Rigby .470NE, got damaged and replaced with .416 Rigby mauser and intermittent .458win M70. total of 53 full seasons of culling and PH duties, nearly 50 were conducted with a bolt rifle....he had a .450/400 SxS as a back-up but never had cause to use it. I suspect it was the .450/400 Bell once owned and also relegated to the sidelines. " The only heavy rifle I could find was a Rigby .416 at a dealer by the name of May & Co.......I bought it. Little knowing then that decision was one of the most important I would make throughout my hunting career.
So began a lifelong love affair between myself, the .416 caliber, and the Rigby rifle. . I very soon realized that this rifle and cartridge combination was for me far superior to any double. The inherent accuracy of a bolt action was apparent from the very first shot, the phenomenal penetration was to make itself evident as time went by. I also appreciated the four round magazine, and on several occasions was glad that those four rounds were ready and waiting.
Suffice to say that after about two Safaris I would not have gone back to a double under any circumstances. In the Rigby .416 I had found the perfect Professional Hunters rifle, A beautifully balanced, fast handling weapon propelling a four hundred grain bullet fast enough to enable it to reach out up to three hundred yards if need be, when trying to bring down a wounded animal, and yet perform with devastating effect on large dangerous game at close range. I was impressed!!!.
I have to say that this rifle never gave the slightest trouble, it did however, give the most satisfactory service anyone could ask for, it never let me down, ever!!...Over the years as a Professional Hunter I carried the .416 from the Sudan in the North to Botswana in the South. There have been some rather tricky situations, and it was largely due to the qualities of the Rigby rifle and the performance of the 416 cartridge that everyone involved came through unscathed." - Harry Selby. "...the big bore school, When they quote striking energy in foot pounds, it becomes almost irresistible. The weight of the piece , the size of the cartridge, the noise it makes, and the cost of it all, quite overcame the inexperienced man or those of naturally weak reasoning powers.
Of course its must be recognition that some of the very finest craftsmanship goes into these heavy weapons. they are things of entrancing beauty and have attraction quite apart from their utility as killers. I myself once fell under their sway.
I bought myself a double .450/400 hammerless ejector first grade by Daniel Frazer of Edinburgh. I knew Frazer well and often fired his heavy pieces on his regulating range." - WDM bell , American Rifleman 1954. When recreational hunters and some of todays PHs insist they 'need' a SxS or try to prop it up as superior, I get a chuckle. however like anything else in life if a person simply wants one and can afford one, then why not.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
Isn't the internet wonderful? The number of PHs, whose primary job is to protect the client when things go south, almost to a man, prefer a double. Are their some who prefer a bolt or carry one because that is all they have? absolutely. Bell was not a PH, he was an ivory poacher and by his own admission, he lost count of how many elephants he lost when he was going after large quantities of ivory. The double still remains, a highly specialized tool with inherent limitations, that is without question.
Last edited by jorgeI; 08/22/17.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,263
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,263 |
I would love to own and hunt with a SxS double but doubt that will ever happen. I consider them specialized "stopping" rifles although they are fine for hunting as well. But for most I think they are a handicap with iron sights. I think a scope looks out of place and can ruin the balance and handling of a fine rifle. In the past most double rifles were bespoke and fitted to the buyer insuring good fit and handling. Now most hunters are far better equipped with a medium bolt rifle. These are so efficient the need for a stopping rifle is almost eliminated. The double still remains, a highly specialized tool with inherent limitations, that is without question.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,144 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,144 Likes: 1 |
I handled and shot a DG double, a 500 NE. I shot it well, wasn't intimidated by it, was amazed by the big push and lack of a harsh jolt.
I like a good bolt gun that fits and shoots, one that's suited for 3-400 yds, as well as close shots.
As previously posted, the DR is a specialized gun, reeking with panache and history.
Just not on my wish list.
DF
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