You can buy one of those nice little CZ O/U in 20 ga for around $850 brand new. I love mine.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
You are asking for something that is hard to find in an O/U.
LW 20 will recoil more than a standard weight 12 shooting the same 1ounce of shot. 7/8 ounce may get you there, but not by much. You can't reduce shotgun weight and shoot the same weight/speed shell without increasing recoil. Physics, and1oz target loads all fall within the same FPS parameters 20ga or 12ga.
Beretta for a lot of use with little chance of breakdown, combined with if it does, easy parts sourcing. Consider a recoil system that compresses the recoil pad for recoil reduction. However, they do screw the balance on a LW.
For Pete's sake, this is so easy and still the critics abound. For $1500.00, you could easily find a nice Citori or even better a 101 Winchester. 7/8 oz is plenty of shot to break a clay. All day on the clays range, the 20 gauge in a light O/U with that load, won't bother you any more than a 12 with 1 oz loads.
Originally Posted by RJY66
I was thinking the other day how much I used to hate Bill Clinton. He was freaking George Washington compared to what they are now.
No, I obviously don't and the first impression from your response is I have little desire to do so. But perhaps I'm wrong.
However, we seem to have an individual who is willing to admit that age has diminished some of his strength and tolerance for recoil. It usually takes some years for one to be willing to do so. My question to you was directed so that I could get a feeling for how your and his age relates. Which would give me some idea of how your response relates to his particular situation. Nothing more.
You want to be a wise ass, I would suggest you read your sig line and more than once.
No, I obviously don't and the first impression from your response is I have little desire to do so. But perhaps I'm wrong.
However, we seem to have an individual who is willing to admit that age has diminished some of his strength and tolerance for recoil. It usually takes some years for one to be willing to do so. My question to you was directed so that I could get a feeling for how your and his age relates. Which would give me some idea of how your response relates to his particular situation. Nothing more.
You want to be a wise ass, I would suggest you read your sig line and more than once.
Of course, you want to continue and make insinuations based on your experience and no consideration for someone else. Because I endorse a gun that fits the OP and what he is looking for, you want to become overbearing.
You also don't recognize recoil and all the physics of what causes it. Weight of projectile and velocity aren't the only factors. The base of the projectile will directly affect felt recoil, as it is based on the bore diameter as well as projectile.
That aside, I guess you are telling me that I was wrong to say that a 20 gauge with 7/8 oz loads will be harder on the shooter than a 12 gauge with 1 oz loads. That may even be the case, but I will stand by my experience shooting both for over 20 years at sporting clays and will tell you the 20 gauge is no harder on you at the end of the course.
Deny me all you want, but it is just like the Campfire lately for a guy to ask about an O/U shotgun and which will work and you need to continue with your experience and suggest a semi-auto.
And now I am a wise ass, look in the mirror and you won't see perfection.
Originally Posted by RJY66
I was thinking the other day how much I used to hate Bill Clinton. He was freaking George Washington compared to what they are now.
+1 on what battue said. A 20 will normally recoil worse than a 12 with the same shot payload as 20's tend to be lighter.
I would look at a 12g semi as a first option. The newer Berettas have the 'Kick-Off' system which in conjunction with the in-built recoil reduction of a gas operated semi (actually not a reduction, just spreads the recoil pulse out over a longer period of time) might be the answer for you.
Second option would be a light (7/8 oz) 12 g load at 1150 fps in your current gun - but you say that you want to go lighter, so that option might be out.
Don't go light weight 20g and expect it to not kick unless you go right down in shot payload.
I may have more years on me than the OP, so I can appreciate where he is coming from. Combined with the fact while I can still handle most 12ga loads for a long day of shooting, I also see many of age who can't. And for many of them the answer is a semi. So it was thrown out for consideration.
As far as shell base and overbore, while you are correct, please don't assume that you are special in being aware of the effects. Is the OP aware of them? Did you address them in your reply? Or is it just now convenient for you to do so to impress us with your experience. Overbore will help some. Worrying about the base of the projectile is pissing in the wind. BP claims their wads reduce recoil, but they measure velocity different. And are considerably more expensive than most other options.
Are 20ga 101's overbore? Honest question, I don't know, but it was one of your suggestions.
I's a thinkin HitnRun is right Battue, we do not want to know who he is. What an insecure little Richard Noggin. We gave answers to the question, and suggested another option.
Sounds like a Larry Root, type actor, known, but well disliked.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
Ok, let’s see if we can make some sense of all this and how it got here. OP asks a question and you give a "For Pete's Sake" and I'm wondering if you are considering his admitted problems. It may not be that straight forward, and since I'm fairly positive I have a better perspective on the age issue decide to comment.
I ask your age for reference, and admittedly on hitting post think this may cause a problem. Perhaps I should explain the question. Na, we will work it out. You do take offense and throw out the “you don't know me and that's good.” OoooK , her we go, but I explain the reason, but throw a sneaky jab back. You don't think much of the reason, or the jab and we are off.
I've been seriously considering becoming only a reader here because of this BS. You want to move on and we both try to help the OP, I'm all for it. You don't, bugger off.
You also don't recognize recoil and all the physics of what causes it. Weight of projectile and velocity aren't the only factors. The base of the projectile will directly affect felt recoil, as it is based on the bore diameter as well as projectile.
What a load of rubbish. The free recoil formula couldn't care less about the base of the projectile or the bore diameter. The free recoil formula uses the weight of the firearm, the weight of the ejecta and the velocity of the ejecta. Nothing more.
In an attempt to get this post back on track... Regarding recoil, put simply (in round figures), reduce the velocity of the cartridge by 10%, you reduce free recoil by 20%. Reduce the shot load by 10% and you again reduce free recoil by 20%. Reduce both by 10% and you reduce free recoil by 40%.
So going from 1oz @ 1350 to 7/8 @ 1200 (both changes are around 10%), in a 7lb gun, you reduce free recoil from 15.8 foot pounds to 10.1 foot pounds (actually 36% reduction not 40%, but hopefully you get the drift).
The gauge that you are using has NO effect. The weight of the gun has an effect, which is what battue was pointing out. If you are already using 7/8 oz @ 1150 in a 7lb 12g, using 7/8 oz in a 6lb 20g will generate more free recoil.
According to Chuck Hawks, whom I would put more stock in than Campfire members, does say that a 20 gauge shotgun weighing 6.5 pounds with a 7/8 oz load will have less recoil than a 12 gauge weighing 7.5 pounds with 1 oz load.
Maybe, maybe not, but he has done more with ballistics than anyone else posting here.
According to Chuck Hawks, whom I would put more stock in than Campfire members, does say that a 20 gauge shotgun weighing 6.5 pounds with a 7/8 oz load will have less recoil than a 12 gauge weighing 7.5 pounds with 1 oz load.
Maybe, maybe not, but he has done more with ballistics than anyone else posting here.
Quite correct - given that the velocity is the same in both cases. But the gauge has nothing to do with it. A 12 ga shotgun weighing 6.5 pounds with a 7/8 oz load will have less recoil than a 12 ga shotgun weighing 7.5 pounds with a 1 oz load.
Put another way, a 12 ga shotgun weighing 6.5 pounds with a 7/8 oz load will have exactly the same free recoil as a 20 (or 28) ga shotgun weighing 6.5 pounds with a 7/8 oz load.
Chuck also said 1oz in the light 20 recoils more than the same 1oz in a 7.5lb 12. (21.ft/lbs vs 17.3 ft/lbs) Which is what Mike also said.
You want to equate recoil based on gun weight, then the shot quantity and FPS has to be the same.
However, Woolrich changed his mind and said the question isn't about recoil, so why are we concerned with it? Like the gas gun being suggested when he inquired about an O/U. Although it isn't all that rare for some to contradict themselves here. Goes with the territory.
There's no need to get carried away with answering any query put forward by 'Woolrich', he's just another fcking troll. Check out his "Rechambering Question " post on the Gunsmithing forum.
Steelhead has him nailed, he has retard figured out quite nicely.
What type clays you intend to shoot...I personally find the 20 s to recoil as much or more than 12.. Mainly due to the lighter weight of the 20 ..I shoot a browning ultra xs skeet for most things except trap...it is a dream to shoot with the ported barrels and the whole gun design....same loads in a field citori feel way stiffer....most clay shooting can be done with a 410 if your good enough....bigger gauge just gives a bigger margin of error.... Odvusly with your shoulder issue maybe a 12 with 20 ga tubes would be an option.to get the weight up some....or one of those mucury things in the butt stock...
This place would most definitely qualify for a study on the presentation of information and its comprehension.Throw in behavioral science and Freud would crawl out of the grave to analyze the data.
I'm actually loving this. You have come to the conclusion I'm a Scotchman who lives in Scotland, who speaks fluent Cajun-now how cool would that accent be-and has limited access to firearms.
Wow, now it is obvious why people are laughing at you.
O most definitely yes you can.
The hilarious emoji isn't on this computer, but you didn't see that.
The only reason I hang around is so I can converse via the written word. In real life I sound like like McGreagor, overdosed on creole Bloody Mary's with a mouthful of jambalaya. God understands, but few mortals are capable. That Woolrich guy has me pegged.
It's just sooooooo much fun to not be foolish enough to put the enemy on ignore. But we all know I'm not. However, anyway and you will break. You will, most definitely. You should have learned from one of your Democrat idols, LBJ. "It's better to have the enemy pissing in the tent where you can see them rather than outside where you can't."
It's in your head, isn't it? You hear it at the most inappropriate times. Right before you try and nod off into sleep? It's there, always there. Drip, Drip, Drip, Drip....
You want to shout out in reply, but you can't. Not yet....But you will break.....Go ahead, the easy way is to break.
I was beginning to wonder the same. If so he is a sick SOB. Sybil. I just spent a couple days around people that are fighting off sickness and some of them dancing with death. Little Kids getting chemo shot into their veins. Car wrecks, etc and it got me thinking about what is going on here. Then you have [bleep] like Root and/or Woolrich. They get their rocks off on this crap. Make me the king and they would be given it all and them some.
The prick can read this. One the other or both makes little difference.You proud of yourself you miserable piece of chit?
Addition: I'm wasting my time, for it is what they feed on. It's all they have and that isn't much.
Read the whole thread. Recoil is not the issue and a semi is out of the question. If nothing else strikes your curiosity and attention, at minimum pay some thought to this one particular post.
I'm late to this party. I'm bumping eighty, on blood thinners (pacemaker), no serious shoulder disorders, but on a dove outing last weekend, my Beretta 687 SP4 12 ga beat my shoulder up pretty badly, shooting AA 1 1/8 heavy target loads. The second day I switched to my old Pigeon Gd Superposed shooting 1 oz field loads, and as this discussion reflects, there was not much difference in recoil.
The last two years, I had opened dove season with my Winchester 42 in .410 bore. It is a heck of a lot of fun, but it is a 25 yard max gun, and I had not limited out. This year some of our regular gang were absent due to a dumb young man getting married on the east coast over the week-end. His dad obviously did not raise him right to allow his bride to interfere with hunting. LOL....I thought the extra firepower might help as we couldn't keep the birds strrred up as much as usual.
Additional information. The Beretta came with two factory pads. I had never removed the quick detachable thin pad that the gun was shipped with. The pad ripped down one side during the shoot. I will replace it with the pre fitted pad that came with the gun, but I'm not sure how much relief that will give me. Up until the pacemaker, my standard hunting load for quail was pigeon loads (3 1/4/ 1 1/4) and I never noticed recoil. High brass for pheasant, same no ill effect. ,
My first reaction was to turn the Bretta into a Benelli Legacy 28, but after switching to the light weight twenty and reading this thread, at least the serious part, I'm not sure that a five pound 28 will accomplish anything. One thing for certain, the PG Browning will not be cut for a pad.
Based upon what I read here, I'm going to get a couple of boxes of 1 oz AA 8s and a couple of boxes of the 26 gram loads (if I can find them) for the Beretta, replace the pad and give it another go next week-end. I do not like the strap on Past shooting pad. If I can find a shirt or a vest that contains the Past, I will get one. Worst case, I could get my loader out of storage. I don't really shoot enough to mess with reloading anymore.
I can't physically chase the blue (scaled) quail and pheasant any more. I do have a Kawasaki mule, so I can hunt Bob Whites plantation style off of it. That leaves dove and waterfowl and I really need a Twelve, but I do have four others but but I'm not sure any of the others will handle steel shot. They are all kind of "vintage", with softer steel barrels. I do have 28 ga Legacies available to try out. Daughter said I could use hers anytime.
Ramblings of an old fart,
Jack
"Do not blame Caesar, blame the people...who have...rejoiced in their loss of freedom....Blame the people who hail him when he speaks of the 'new, wonderful, good, society'...to mean ,..living fatly at the expense of the industrious." Cicero
12 Gauge-3/4ounce at 1100FPS. That is a 28Ga load in a 12Ga. 2 or 2.5inch, but makes no difference in an O/U or SxS. Good shell, expensive but about as easy kicking 12 as you will find. They make low recoil loads in all gauges and will ship to your house.
Winchester at one time made this one: 26Grams of shot at 980FPS. Called the Feather and felt like a .410 for recoil. Hard to find, but there are still some out there. WW distributor may be your best chance. Good for up close opportunities.
battue, thanks for jogging my memory. I had seen the RST offerings a while back, but had forgotten about them. They are expensive, but I am no longer a high volume user. A flat of 12 ga will last a year or more. The Beretta is a beautiful gun and I enjoy using it.
I saw the Winchester load, but have not yet located them. Winchester does offer target 1oz loads at three different speeds. I was unaware of that. ,
To answer your first question, yes it is recoil. My shoulder looks as if I was beat with a baseball bat. I'm going back tomorrow. I will grab a few boxes of the slowest 1 oz load that I can find this evening. ,
Thanks,
Jack
"Do not blame Caesar, blame the people...who have...rejoiced in their loss of freedom....Blame the people who hail him when he speaks of the 'new, wonderful, good, society'...to mean ,..living fatly at the expense of the industrious." Cicero
Just picked up a supply of shotgun shells and asked if they had the Winchester 900FPS load. They said not presently but they can get them. So if you are interested this is the place and they will ship by the flat.
Thanks. We have a small stocking dealer here that will get me anything that is available from multiple distributors.
Jack
"Do not blame Caesar, blame the people...who have...rejoiced in their loss of freedom....Blame the people who hail him when he speaks of the 'new, wonderful, good, society'...to mean ,..living fatly at the expense of the industrious." Cicero
I known where you shop now Battue. They used to be my main dealer, untill their guns op customers forced them to raise retail prices. Still do good if you buy through a club. Walking around the warehouse is like being a kId in a candy store
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
Yes, when you look at what they have it is impressive. Even when not ordering thru a club you can save a good bit. Adds up if you shoot more than a little. In addition, good people. Need the inside scoop on who makes what, where it's made, which different brands are equivalent, who is using good shoot, etc, they know.
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