Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting 300wsm and 190 VLD for Elk question

Well, I have a example that's pretty close. 180 grain VLD from a 7 WSM at about 2925 fps. Hit the bull in the ribs at 617 yards, cold bore, exactly where the crosshairs lay. He took about a dozen steps and laid down dead. Bullet was caught in the offside hide. Wound channel was cavernous, and yes, they penetrate before expanding, uh, assertively. It is my load for everything that might be taken at over 500 yards. If I'm fortunate it will kill another bull. I would happily take the same shot at 25 yards.

Well as I said, it's your elk, and I don't care what others use. As long as I don't have to recover them it's not my monkey or my circus.

We do disagree, but that doesn't make me right and you wrong, or the other way around.

What you did say is " I judge a bullet by it's ability to kill reliably and quickly."
I would agree but for the word quickly.

Chasing them for some time after the 1st shot hit is why I am sour on them. I have had to do it a few times now. Deer and elk both.
I like the old saying "do all your hunting before you fire the rifle".

My pastor killed a nice Mulie buck with 4 Burgers, from a 270 last season. 3 hit in the chest, 2 of which were very well places. The 4th bullet killed the buck from about 10 feet away with a nick shot (which did exit) Whole drama took him about 1-1/2 hours.
IMG952016101395173647042 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr

I was not on that hunt, but the results were not a bit surprising to me.

He did pretty much the same thing with a 30-06 just a week earlier shooting 165 grain bullet. Took 2 shots and the deer ran about 500 yards . One hit too far back, so we'll not accuse the bullet of ill performance on that shot. Next, one right through the chest, but no good or fast results. Last one did the job------- about 30 minutes later.
Those are just 2 of many many such stories I have heard, and 2 of about 12 I have seen with my own eyes.

Probably 75% of the game I have seen killed with Burgers didn't go very far, but that doesn't mean the Burger was better than anything else. And from the horrid blow-ups I see, they are not as good.

I think it's unreasonable to say if they had taken identical hits from a Nosler partition, any bonded core bullet, a Remington C-L or a Winchester Power Point that the results would have been as bad or worse, being that I have seen those others work a lot better for a lot longer. I have not cared for the Sierra Game Kings very much because they usually shed their jackets, but at least they hold more weight then Burgers do.

I have seen plenty of bad performance with other bullets but I can say with 100% certainty I have never seen worse then I see from burgers. Not ever. Not on any game. Not from any caliber and not from any bullet weight.

I have seen game run when hit well with other bullets too, but any other hunter with about 50 years of experience behind him have seen such things.

The thing is, of all the times I have seen it in 50 years or so, about 85% of those were hit with Burgers and those were all in the last 12 years or so. The other 15% are spread over 50 years with deer, elk, moose, bears, caribou and antelope hit with other makers bullets in all other calibers combined.
Off the top of my head I can remember having to go after game that were hit well with 4 Sierras, three 30 cals and one 150 gr 7mm,
1 Remington CL 100 gr .257.
2 Speer bullets, one 9.3mm 270 grain and one 120 grain 257.
One 225 grain 338 Hornady on a moose, one 250 grain 338 Hornady, also on a moose.
There may be a few others that i am not remembering right this minutes too.

But all those combined don't come to the number of game animals I have seen, or had to chase down myself, shot with Burgers just in the last 12 years.

All will have to make their own choices. I only write this for the readership to ponder. I don't expect to change anyone's mind.
Only experience and having real world comparisons will do that.

I share what I have seen and what I have done, and I'll report the bad with the good. I don't use Burgers because the first 2 years I shot them I never shot at game with them, and I had the opportunity to learn from the mistakes of my friends and clients.
I always prefer learn from the mistakes of others instead of having to make them all myself.

I have shot game with bullets that I didn't like for the given purpose too, and I have done it as recently as last year. Hornady 170 Gr 8MM SSTs are not what I'd choose for elk again. Yes, I killed a nice bull, but 2 rounds were fired and neither exited, one of which came apart. Outstanding accuracy, and the bullets went about 18"-22"" deep, so I would give them high marks for a deer round, but I like better performance for elk. Here are the pics of those 2 bullets and an unfired one to look at.
PA110001 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
As you can see, it meats my personal definition for a failure of a big game bullet. Core separation on one. I'd give them a C as a grade. Passable, but not great.

I am going back to Nosler Partitions for my 8MM now. The SST shot flatter, so I thought I'd give it a chance. I did.
And now I am going back.

I want bone breaking ability with exits on elk, every time.
Deer are not so big or tough. So if I can get 60% weight retention on a deer bullet without core separation I am happy.

My standards are my own. No one is in any way obligated to agree, but that's what i have come to after 5 decades of killing big game and guiding hunters who kill big game.

"Your mileage may vary"

My mileage varies....

I've killed 7 elk with a 270W and 150gr Sierra Boattails. Will the Sierra 150gr Boattail kill an elk? Yep. Is it a good elk bullet? Nope.

That's a distinction many people don't decipher..............


Casey

I'm patiently waiting for someone to show pictures of dead elk from a .308 155 grain Scenar.... target bullet....

If you know and trust the load I would not touch a thing and I definitely wouldn't be pulling bullets. to your question, sounds like a very worthy 600-yard capable backup rifle to your 28 Noz/Accubonds primary.

What I MIGHT do, is load up some 200-gn Accubonds or Partitions for that 300 WSM for timber work- if that's a possibility for the hunt. POI would likely be close enough to leave the scope alone.

What are you scoping it with?

Right now it has a Meopta Meostar 3-12x56 but I'm selling it and replacing it with a Leupold vx5hd 3-15x44 windplex.

............................Ltsheets.................Given you can maintain good hunting accuracy, you still have quite a bit of room to play going beyond 2600 fps using the 190 VLD.

Several years ago, I used a 190 hunting VLD from my 300 WSM Ruger shorty compact on a bull elk with great success at 312 yards. So far it is my only experience using a Berger on elk. So with Bergers, my first hand experience on elk is very limited. But what a great experience it was. Only with a max load of RL17 behind the 190 VLD was I able to average nearly 2800 fps.

The shot was pretty much broadside with the bull quartering away from me by about 5 to 10 degrees at the most. The bull staggered maybe 10 feet and dropped. The VLD did the job.

So when it comes to any VLD on elk threads such as this one as well as and all of them in the past, you are going to read experiences that go both ways; great (I'll use them again) and not so great (I won't use them again) type of responses. Some swear by them, while others swear off from them. After all the advice whether it be pro or con, personal experience is your best teacher.

I wont hesitate using a 190 VLD again for elk. And should I own either a 6.5 or 7mm in the future, I wouldn't hesitate using either for elk.

Ltsheets..............Forgot to ask. What rifle chambered in 28 Nosler do you have?........Browning? Nosler? Rifle from MRC?

MRC extreme x2 with the MRC muzzlebreak.

Very good. MRC makes excellent rifles...........I just need to make up my mind between the 26 or 28 Nosler...........Even though I own a MK5, I prefer the CRF M70 type action/safety. .....Seriously considering the ASR with the upgraded ALR wood stock which MRC will do for an added cost.

Good luck with your X2. Don't think you'll need it though.

I've been told that the 28nos has been far less finicky reloading wise by a couple different gun smiths. Also with a break from MRC, the recoil is about like a .308. I can call my hits at 200 and beyond. Pretty awesome.

Thanks...........Vs the 28, I have read that about the 26 where being more finicky is concerned.....Between the two, I have always leaned more towards the 28 Nosler as a great choice for going smaller than 30 cal..............

Yes the 28 is smaller diameter than a 30 cal but few 30 cals out perform one.

.......................Yep!......At the 500 yard mark in terms of retained velocity and energy, the 28 Nosler using a 175 ABLR is just about even with the 30-378 using a 180 gr AB......Beyond that the 28 Nosler begins to take over.

If you really wanna run numbers. Run them with a 180 VLD around 3150-3200

.........Yep! Thought of that. The two ballistic sources I used from Nosler and Weatherby were handier. And when comparing the 28 Nosler to the 7 RUM, it takes more powder for the RUM to do the same not to mention the slightly longer action....Nosler hit it waaaay out the park with the 26 and 28...Well!! They might as well intro the 27 Nosler to give the 270 buffs something to really talk about....lol...................Its official...I'm gettin a 28........Mind is made up.

Good choice bigsqueeze!

........................Thx.........The more I look at the MRC ASR, the more I'm really beginning to like it just as it is without swapping out for the ALR stock upgrade. I do like the forearm palm swell and its beauty is more simplified...... Will get the muzzle brake added on though.

With the 28 Nosler and MRC, I will have my Model 70 cake and eat it too. I'll be calling MRC next week to place the order.

If you REALLY want to run numbers, punch in the new 7mm 180 ELD-M...

G1 BC of .796 if memory serves. That's what I'm using in my long range 7WSM. I've killed a few bucks with the 7mm 162's.... high hopes for the 180, if it is as terminally wicked as ELD-M's/Amax's typically are, but with the extra oomph in the trunk (aka SD) from being, well, a 7mm 180-grain bullet... with that BC.... it will be awesome! They are very accurate in my rifle and the listed BC is legit out to 1000 yards which is all the further I've shot them.