Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting 300wsm and 190 VLD for Elk question

Before I start pulling some bullets and reloading for more velocity, I'm curious what you guys think about this load for elk...especially those of you with berger experience. My 300wsm shoots a 190vld in the current load at around 2600 fps and 1/2 MOA. I doubt I'd shoot past 600 yds at a bull even under perfect conditions. At 600 yds, according to my calculations, this combo should still be moving 1915 fps and have 1547 ft/lbs of energy. At close ranges I'd be fine with this combo even on a quartering to angle but that those ranges I'd hesitate on anything but perfectly broadside. I'm curious what you guys think about this choice of bullet out to 600 yards? This would also be my backup rifle most likely as my 28 Nosler shooting 160ABs at 3230fps will be my most likely primary rifle.

Bullet construction is far more important then a bullet's flight characteristics.
I have hunted and killed elk now for about 48 years and I have guided elk hunter for about 1/2 of those years too.
Nearly ever single horror story I can tell you about that deals with chasing wounded elk come from (A) poor placement and (B) poor penetration.
How accurate a bullet is and how well a bullet flys are both secondary to how well a bullet penetrates. Not that I think Solids are the cat's meow for elk, but a bullet that opens up 1/3 larger and hold it weight as WAY WAY WAY better for elk then one that blow apart and sheds 65 to 80 percent of it's weight.
The problem I have seen with VLD bullets (so far) is that they are OK at the longer ranges in a few cases, but at the ranges you'll kill 98% of the elk in your life they fail horribly

Some manufacturers are making VLDs now that have good thick jackets in the shanks and they may be OK, but so far I have not seen one work the way I'd like and so I am not willing to recommend any yet. I DO NOT mean to say that I know them all. I don't!
So Mule Deer or some others here may be able to give you better advise, but form what I have seen myself I would rather see a hunter show up with a bullet that is "old fashioned' and has a good rep for holding it's weight than I would see them show up with target bullets.

One last thing I will say without reservation:
Many of the new "hunting bullets" made for long range use are still target bullets----- with a new label. I'll just say this and let the chips fall where they may.................... the word "hunting" on the label is an out-right lie.

Super slick bullets are nice in that they make hits a little bit easier, but if the bullet doesn't kill well you'll probably regret their use.
I no longer shoot long shots although I have done it quite a number of times when i was in my 30s and 40. I guess I grew out of that stage. I have a self imposed limit of 550 yards (500 meters) That's not close shooting, but not what i call long either.

But I can tell you that when I did shoot long range at game, I simply learned my windage and my hold overs and I shot HUNTING bullets. The same ones I used at 100 yards. And they always did the job, some out past the 600 yards you spoke of. I have never killed an elk way out there, but I did kill my 1st moose at a range that was noteworthy.

If I were to get back into it I would be looking hard at the Bonded Core bullets and probably the older bullets I used all those years ago too. The new bonded bullets can hold up well on an elk's shoulder at 50 yards and still do well out at the longer ranges too.

I have had to track a few elk and deer hit with the "new stuff" and so far I have not lost one, so the hunters have ended up satisfied, but I was not.


Here is something to think about.
If a bullet is 18 inches flatter at range X than the older bullet , you'd have to hold 18" lower that you would with that older bullet.
Right?

But you still have to hold!

It's not a laser beam, so even the super fast super flat shooters need to be held over the top of the back at 400 and out.
Right?

So if you can hold 2 feet high why is it a problem to hold 3 feet high?????????????

See, if you can hold steady enough to hit it's obvious you can hold where you need to hold.
If you can't hold, you should not be shooting!!!!!!!

No VLD (or for that matter no Partition, Bonded core, pistol bullet, muzzleloader ball or archers arrow) should be thrown at any game you can't hold well enough on to make hits at least 90% of time.

If you can't do it 9 times out of 10 ON DEMAND, you should not shoot. Get closer.

If you can shoot long range and make hits 90% of the time on a target 75% the size of an elks chest you'll do yourself a favor and use a real hunting bullet. Don't loose sight of the objective and then redouble your effort.

Listen to someone who has been there!!!! Most of this stuff is written by folks who dream elk hunting..szihn has been there done that!!

I don't care what someone does or doesn't do, but saying hits 90% of the time are within your effective range seems at best misguided. I figure that my maximum range in the field is the distance where I can place my shots there 100% of the time. Why would you fire a bullet towards an elk where you know that you'll miss 10% of the time, as a best case scenario?

"I figure that my maximum range in the field is the distance where I can place my shots there 100% of the time."

Well 406, I would not disagree myself.
I try to hold to that standard too, but I can't say "thus saith the Lord" to the hunters.

I wish I could.

Szihn,

I appreciate your response and depth of knowledge on elk hunting. My main question is how many heavy Berger VLD hunting bullets have you seen fail on an elk in your experience? I agree that I don't like them at high velocities but I don't shoot them above 3000fps in any of my rifles for now. I ask about the direct experience because I've now shot or seem shot 7 animals so far with this load from distances of 70-350 yards. This includes a pass through in a zebra at 225 yds to include the far shoulder blade, passthru on a kudu, and a dead oryx. I also have a buddy who shot a bull last year with a 168gr and took out both shoulders before passing through. I've been impressed with their performance in game or I wouldn't be considering them.

Also don't worry about my shooting. I always get as close as I can within reason before taking a shot. I'm not the guy that makes up excuses of why I can't get closer than 800 yds haha. I respect game too much to shoot any further than I have to under the circumstances.

Completely agree with that!

I like how Steve Rinella puts it. If I'm looking at game and questioning if you are capable of hitting the animal where you want, it's out of your range. You shouldn't be wondering if you can hit them at that range.

I don't disagree with szihn, as the problems I've seen with "softer" high-BC bullets have occurred at closer ranges. That said, one of the big mistakes many hunters (especially older hunters) make is assuming that just because a bullet has a high BC it should be driven at the highest muzzle velocity possible.

One of the big advantages of high-BC bullets is that they don't have to be started fast to perform well at longer ranges. And when started at moderate muzzle velocities they tend penetrate well, just like other jacketed bullets have since smokeless powder became the propellant of choice.

Hallelujah! At least somebody else gets it.

I've killed a LOT more elk at less than a 100 yds than I ever have at 300+ yds. But given the current Campfire fad, anything less than a .600 BC apparently ain't elk worthy.........

Casey

Ltsheets - that's a mild and accurate load you've got there.

I don't use my .300 WSM much, but with book loads, it's a 210 Berger VLD out the 24" barrel at 2810 fps, with very good accuracy. I like the cartridge!

Seems to me that you've got plenty of room for more powder/velocity with your rifle & load.

The only VLD's I've shot game with were the 115 Berger VLD's at nearly 3200 fps from my 25-06, with Retumbo. That load was very effective! Three mule deer, no problems at about 175, 230 and 400 yards.

Regards, Guy

I shot a bull elk with my 300wsm and 190 VLD in 2014. 440 yards. He be hanging in the trophy room.

I agree with Szihn 100%.
I do know one person who hunted elk with Bergers.
He got his elk, 5 shots later. After field dressing, he told me he would never use them on elk again.
One incident is not enough evidence to make a judgment, maybe he is a bad shot.

I don't think you will find a lot of reports, one way or the other, about target bullets on elk because I don't think many people use them, for a reason.
In my opinion (with no hard evidence) I believe less than 5% of elk are harvested at 500+ yards, and close to 75% are harvested at under 250 yards.

Oh dear god here we go again.

Guys I'm not trying to start an argument. The chances of me needing a shot beyond 300 aren't likely but where I'm hunting there will be a lot of open area in burns so it's possible to need a longer shots. Once again, a 28 Nosler with accubonds is likely my primary rifle.

There are two proven 30 cal "target" bullets made by Berger that work very well on big game. TheY are the 215 and 230 match target hybrids.

Broz (shortened last name) has a long thread on LRH documenting how well the 215s worked on elk, deer and antelope.
There are 23 kills documented with velocities, entrance and exit pictures
.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/comparing-the-berger-210-vld-to-the-215-hybrid.88657/


I have several friends that use the 230 Berger match target hybrid and I have used it myself. Most use the 300 RUM, myself included, with velocities running from 2800 to 2900 fps. My friend Chase has shot quite a few animals with his 300 Rum with excellent results. (moose,deer, antelope, elk, Orx, and barbary sheep)

I dragged this from my documents. A guy went to Africa and used the 230s in his 300 RUM:


07-28-2014, 04:02 AM
RMHUNTER
Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: SW KANSAS
Posts: 8

230gr berger used in Africa with success
________________________________________
Much debate has been done on using Berger’s 230gr hybrid target as a hunting bullet and being a person that likes trying new things I decided to use this bullet on my African plains game safari after all what better place to test a bullet. I loaded the 230 in my 300Rum with 85.5 gr of H1000 at 2830 fps. I chose the 230gr hybrid bullet because it shot so well in my rifle most of the time 3 shots in one hole so I had confidence in it. Next I like Berger’s performance on game and with this target bullet having .003 thicker jackets I was hoping on some extra penetration on Africa’s thicker skinned game. My first animal was a gemsbok (Oryx) the shot was 150yds broadside I hit dead on right in the middle of the shoulder. The gemsbok jumped ran 100yd and fell dead. Upon inspecting the gemsbok we found that the bullet busted the shoulder entered the ribs making a 2” entrance sending bone and bullet fragments through the lung totally destroying the lungs. I felt that this was a great success especially since so many people told me that a target bullet would just pencil through and my PH was amazed as well. Next animal was a blesbok. The shot was 200yd broadside through the ribs with a 1” entrance 2” exit dead on the spot 100% pleased. Next was my blue wildebeest. He was 175yd behind some thick brush he turned as I shot the bullet entered top of his left hip and headed through a very full stomach then through the liver and lastly demolishing the bottom half of both lungs. Bad shot on my part but the bullet made up for it in penetration remember also that a wildebeest hide is about a ¼ “ thick as well. Next was a huge zebra stallion 140yd ¼ toward me. The bullet hit just front of the shoulder he ran 50yd and fell. I was not around the skinning shed when they skinned the zebra but all the skinner said was “no lungs left not at all that’s one good bullet.” Next was a kudu at 150yd in tall cover I held high over the brush hit the spine sending bone fragment into the top lungs he fell in his tracks. Lastly was my wife’s huge blue wildebeest at 200yd ¼ toward the bullet hit in front of the shoulder wiped out lungs and liver he ran 30yd and fell. I know there were no long range shots here but I have used this bullet on an elk at 700yd with the same results. All animals were taken with one shot. In my conclusion this bullet is one of the best hunting bullets out there for high speed 30 cal like the 300RUM, 300Weatherby and the 30-378. This bullet showed excellent penetration (ie.the wildebeest) and showed excellent expansion on small animals (blesbok) and large (wildebeest, zebra).


I shot a cow elk at 250 yd with a high shoulder shot with the 230. Caliber entrance 2" exit. DRT instantly. I watched a friend shoot his cow elk at 300 yds with same bullet through both lungs. The cow stopped moving and a short time later she tipped over dead. His rifle was a 300 WSM with 230 @ 2735 fps.

I do agree with the other posters that the lighter weight 30 caliber Bergers might not be the best choice for the larger big game animals especially if they are close.

That's a great piece from RMHunter in Africa. Similarly my success with the 190 in Africa is why I have faith in the bullet. This thread was more to evaluate the velocity and energy of my potential max range and getting opinions on if it was adequate speed and energy more so that debating overall bullet performance if that makes sense.

Don't worry about impact energy numbers. With an impact velocity of 1900 fps, you'll be fine for bullet expansion and performance.

Well just to answer LTsheets
he asked me

Szihn,
I appreciate your response and depth of knowledge on elk hunting. My main question is how many heavy Berger VLD hunting bullets have you seen fail on an elk in your experience?

The exact answer, as of last elk season, is 16.

And the total number of elk I have seen killed with Burgers so far is 16. From calibers 270, 7MM, 30, and 338
So that's a 100% failure rate.

I have also seen exactly 11 deer killed with them and so far 11 of the 11 had the bullet blow up.

And I have lost exact count on antelope, but I think it's about 20. Of them I have seen shot with Burgers there were exits on about 1/2 of them, but the fragments in the body make me believe that all 20 of them were failures too. I am guessing on the antelope. I am not guessing on the deer and the elk.

Not "kill failures" but BULLET failures.

In other words, the game was dead, but would have been just as dead if hit with a better hunting bullet, and the ones that ran off and had to be shot again (and again, and sometime again, and in 2 cases again and again) would probably not have run as far if hit with a better bullet, and maybe not at all. Some guess work here? Sure! But it's guesses based on over 5 decades of killing game and seeing game killed in many states and a few other countries.

Keep in mind that of all these "Burger kills", all but 3 were hit in the RIGHT place, so we can't blame poor marksmanship. The bullets just came apart and didn't make good straight wounds.

My conviction is that big game should not be shot with varmint bullets, no matter how they are labeled.

I have used bummer bullets from Speer, Sierra, Remington, Hornady and Nosler in the last 50 years of hunting. And I killed game with them.
But I was unhappy with some of them and I never bought that particular bullet again. I do still buy from those companies, because they do make other bullets that seem to work quite well.

Burger is not the only company that makes poor bullets for big game, but Burger is the only one I know of (so far) that makes NO good hunting bullets. If they do I have yet to see one used.

I'd love to be wrong about this. I really would. I want to see them come out with a whole line of real big game bullets and be a raging success. But so far I have been very under impressed with any use of a Burger for anything over 50 pounds. I do LOVE them for paper punching and for varmint killing. They make a good product for varmints and paper, but just because Ibis makes a great bicycle, but I would not buy one for hauling cement blocks. It's not the right tool for that job.

Burger has a large following because of their accuracy and their high BCs, and it's not popular to tell the truth in front of a crowd of fans if that truth is not what they want to hear. It will attract a lot of hate.

But it's still true.

Varmint bullets are not the right tool for killing large game. Will they kill it? Sure. Eventually. Maybe quickly. Maybe not.
Good big game bullets kill quickly.

Now those that say "a dead elk is not a failure" are missing the point of the thread.

I am not, and would never say a poor bullet won't kill. Obviously they will. What I am saying is that a poor bullet will cause issues on game that a good bullet won't. Like long runs after the game is hit. Sometime s lost game (which most don't talk about or write about)

Next we have to define our terms.
I call any big game bullet that comes apart and separates from it's jacket a failure. "Poor design" may be a better title to hang on it.
I call any big game bullet that sheds more than 60% of it's weight a failure. A 75% to 80% loss is a SUPER failure.
Maybe my standards are too high? Some will say they are.
But I don't think so because I have seen quite a handful of bullets made for the last 50 years that do not fail by my standards. So why would I use one that does? All of my scope sighted rifles shoot under 1.25 inch at 100 yards and about half of the shoot well under 1 MOA. And they do it with good HUNTING bullets! So why would I choose one that "flies better"?

I am not the best shot on earth, but I am pretty good, and I can tell you with 100% honesty that even when I was younger and at my best, I could never shoot sub MOA on demand without a bench rest,------ and I don't ever carry a bench rest while I hunt. Neither do most other hunters. Especially elk hunters.
To use a poor design for killing my game because it "fly's better" but kills worse seems to be going backwards to me, not forwards.

I am not religions about this. Use what you like. It's not my elk. But I will answer the questions I am asked directly, and in this post, I have done that in detail.
My opinion based on a lot of shooting and hunting for about 50 years. It is worth only what you value it at.
Most people have to learn things themselves.

Remember what will Rogers said:

“There are three kinds of men.
The ones that learn by readin’.
The few who learn by observation.
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.”

Szihn,

Obviously you have a strong conviction on what you believe is the best type of bullet for big game and we're likely gonna have to agree to disagree here. I for one, want a bullet that is accurate and kills quickly. You said you've seen 16 elk shot with bergers and 16 elk have been killed. I know you say i'm missing the point if I consider that a success but I do consider that a success. I judge a bullet by it's ability to kill reliably and quickly. I've now shot or seen shot 11 animals I think with bergers. None went more than 50 yds and the majority of them never took a step. I've had more animals shot with Barnes and Accubond (still use them in some rifles and think they are great) go on average further than ones shot by bergers. They come apart and have irregular wound channels b/c they are only designed to retain 40% depending on velocity at impact of course. Also worth noting that they don't expand on impact. I always see caliber size entry and that includes when it hits shoulder or leg on impact. It doesn't fragment until in the chest cavity. Just my .02. What matters most is your confidence in what you shoot, and make a good, ethical shot.

Ltsheets,

One aspect of Bergers you just mentioned, their penetration BEFORE they start to expand, is what causes confusion among hunters used to conventional expanding bullets.

The bullets they know about start expanding the instant they hit hide, and are normally fully expanded by the time the bullet penetrates it's own length. This is exactly where most conventional bullets "fail" when coming apart, at the the entrance hole, and what can cause insufficient penetration.

But Bergers penetrate 2-3 inches before even starting to expand. By that time they're into the vitals, and it doesn't matter if they come apart. Well, actually it does, because that's what wrecks vital organs and causes the quick kills.

I have seen several dozen animals killed with Bergers, many of them feral goats in New Zealand, where they were shot as varmints and left. I TRIED to make Bergers blow up prematurely, but shooting already-dead billies the size of big whitetails at no more than 10 feet, deliberately aiming for the shoulder joint. None did. Instead the bullets went through the bone before expanding, just as they do through ribs.

No, Bergers will not penetrate 3 feet or more through big game, like many controlled-expanding bullets do. But I have yet to see one fail to penetrate the vitals inside the chest, when the bullet was placed in the chest, not behind it. They only come apart once they're inside the chest cavity.