Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Flattened primers

It seems that every load I try in my 7600 Whelen carbine flattens primers. Even when I'm a grain or two from max. Extraction isnt hard at all and accuracy is pretty good but it always flattens primers. Could it be excessive head space?

Today I ran 57 and 58 gr of 8208XBR under 200gr TTSX with fed LR primers at about 2715fps (both loads velocity didn't change?) accuracy was decent but flattened the primers.

57.5gr of AA2460 shot a little bug hole @ 2700fps but still flat primers. Annnnd I'm told 2460 is NOT a good temp stable powder for the cold where I hunt.

60gr of TAC had good accuracy but still flat primers....this load runs from 2640-2800!!!?? Wtf that's some spread!

Any thoughts?

You could be pushing the shoulders back too much during the resizing step. Reloader induced excessive headspace will get you flattened primers every time.

Upon firing, the firing pin will push the cartridge forward in the chamber. The primer ignites and starts to extrude. The building pressure will cause the case to expand in all directions with the thinner parts of the case expanding earlier in the cycle and holding the case forward in the chamber. The rest of the case expands later in the cycle because it is thicker and the solid head slams back against the bolt face and hammers the primer back in the pocket and flattens it. This will happen regardless of the pressure unless the cartridge is loaded to pressure levels low enough that the case will not expand. .

FWIW, this is the reason that you can't read pressure by looking at the primers.

I full length resize....how do I know if I'm pushing the shoulder back to far? When I set my sizer die I spin it down until it hits the shell holder the go about a quarter turn more.

Flattened primers are no indication of anything. Some manufacturers have softer cups than others. Most of my hunting loads have flattened primers and I don't run for max velocity (all checked on a chrono). If you are getting flow back into the firing pin hole or end up with loose primer pockets, you should be concerned. Other than that, barring any other over pressure indications, rock on.

Start with the die out a little further, put the sized empty in rifle and see if it will fit. If not, run the die down a little further. Keep it up until it will fit with a little feel, then use that way or adjust a hair more. Once set for that rifle, keep it there. If you are using the same die for more than one, I would do this every time. miles

You should set your die to your chamber. Size a case long and try it in your chamber. The action should not close. Turn the die in a half turn and resize the case and try it in your chamber again. Continue trying resizing the case as you turn the die down until the action closes but you feel some resistance. Now turn the die down another half turn and lock it. Resize a fresh case to make sure it chambers. If it doesn't, repeat the process, if it does you are good to go.
The above is referring to a bolt action.

Miles beat me to it.

The first thing I'd do is buy some factory ammo and see what it looks like after firing. Being a 30-06 this should be cheap and easy.

If they look flat as pancakes you have a gun problem. If they don't you have a reloading problem.

If it's a reloading problem I can help.



Travis

Or it could be soft primers.

Are you using Winchester?

8208 is a great powder., but IMO a tad fast for the 35W with 200s. Temp? I would clean my barre/throat l well and try Varget or re-15 or VV140.. I would use Wolf LRM primers. Size FIRED brass to just chamber .. set the shoulder back 3-4thou in FL dies

Or try H4895 on the fast side

Tag

ThAnk you everyone

Smoke the neck of a fired case. Set the die out so it won't size the case all the way down the neck. Turn the die in a little at a time until you see the soot wiped off just above the shoulder. Try that case in your chamber. If it works OK stop there. If not, turn the die in 1/4 turn at a time and recheck in the chamber for fit.

what dave in wv said

1/4 turn is about .018". That is way to much for proper head spacing. 1/3 of 1/4 is a lot more like it. Even that is a little long.

By sizing this way, I assume I'll have to turn the decaping pin down a heck of a lot more also?

Perhaps. Depends where you're at right now.




Dave

Yes.

But I'd use a Sharpie.




Dave

Thanks you all for the help. I do have some factory rounds I have benchmarked off of. They are not nearly so flat as my hand loads. I'm going to load a few sets today and test. I Have been using fed210 but today I'm going to try rem 91/2.

I have used magnum primers in the past. Could these take a load that's say, at max with std primers and push it over the edge and create high pressures?

Any change in components can up the pressure; so yes.

Smoke works, Sharpie better!!!

No, set your sizing die based on fired brass from that rifle, not factory rounds. It's entirely possible that rifle might have a little excess headspace, which is fine if you size for it accordingly.

Better and easier than the methods described above is to actually measure the shoulder setback. You can use the Hornady Case Comparator https://www.hornady.com/reloading/p...s/headspace-comparator-anvil-base-kit#!/ or make your own. Even a fired pistol case works in a pinch; a 40 S&W case should work for that Whelen, just make sure the case mouth is round.

To do this, set it up and zero the calipers on a fired case. Then when you measure a sized case, the caliper reading will be the headspace clearance you've induced by sizing. Back off the die until you're bumping the shoulders back only .002"-.004" for that rifle. You can bump even less in a bolt gun.

Zero:


Sized:

So I would say by just setting my SB die the way I have been doing it has been causing excessive head space. I did it as you guys explained and shot loads that were flattening before and today the primers looked perfect. Thank you for the help! Now I gotta pretty much start over with most all the loads I've tested but that's fine too.

Had the same problem loading for my brothers 35 whelen model 6. Stayed with about 54 grs. of rl15 and didn't worry about it.

Not to be an azzhole, but how would that be better than actually fitting the shell in the rifle that is shooting it? miles

tag

What I described is fitting the sized case to the rifle that will shoot it. The difference is measuring the shoulder setback so you actually know what it is and can achieve minimum but reliable setback, instead of this arbitrary "1/8 turn more" or "1/4 turn more" stuff that people are throwing out there. 1/4 turn is the difference between not enough and way too much setback. Even if you can end up at the perfect adjustment without measuring, what I described is a faster way to get there.

For what it's worth I have my head space issue resolved. Now I need to re test most all the loads I've tried that showed flattened primers. Some very accurate but flattened. Now that I figured out what is flattening every load I tested I might be in far better shape then I thought.

Not arguing that, as I do not know. But better I will continue my stance. The 1/4 turn, 1/8 turn is a measurement, as there are so many turns to the inch. miles

If you've chosen to remain ignorant, why did you ask? That statement gets a big facepalm for being clueless. Do you know how much of a turn in a sizing die is equal to .002"?

No, but I can calculate it if I choose. miles

Retest the accurate stuff if you think you were getting the velocity you wanted. They might actually prove to be more accurate that you thought.

Did you use the "1/4 turn" method?

Lol, no I just kept slowly turning my die a hair to a time until I bumped my shoulder enough to chamber. Not very scientific at all but it helped tremendously.

Well, I guess that's what I meant. I may try that even though I'm not showing flat primers. I'm currently only loading for one rifle.

Because of the way the brass springs back or deforms a 1/8 turn of the die later in the procedure won't necessarily produce the same sizing change as a 1/8 turn of the die earlier in the procedure. Whether you're measuring or going straight cut and try to fit, it's best to use very small increments until you're familiar with how your sizing set up interacts with your batch of brass.

My original recommendation was to fit to your chamber. Did not exactly spell it out like that, because I thought some here had mechanical ability. miles

Yes, but there may be someone less experienced reading this thread thinking he'll figure it by the thread pitch and be all set.

So was mine. Your insistence that guessing is better than knowing is baffling.

I kinda like fitting it to my chamber instead of measuring a lot. I can measure, but like the other way. I don't know where you get the guessing. If the bolt is hard to close, screw the die down a little. No guess. miles

You're guessing at what the headspace clearance is when you finally get it to fit. Could be .001", could be .015", you don't really know, especially if you're setting the die adjustment with just one piece of brass, instead of measuring a bunch of them. Measuring things is not hard for people with mechanical ability.

Measuring is better because it's a more accurate way to set minimum headspace.

I can put more than one in the chamber to check, but not at the same time, before screwing the die down. How many do you measure? miles

I'll usually measure 10-15 pieces, as it only takes about 2 seconds to measure each one. I measure the first 5-10 through the die after adjustment, and then a random sampling of a few more during sizing a batch just to check. Easy enough to measure all of them if a guy wanted to, but I don't bother.