Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire The Nurse Arrest: A Failure in Leadership

Further, while ED staff commonly work with LE, interacting with them daily, Nurse Wuddel, being a burn department nurse didn't share that same experience.

Assuming that the hospital didn't participate in the drawing of the sample and adequately documented as much in the patients chart that they declined involvement I doubt that suit would get very far as the suing the hospital.

Hospitals as a whole have a s-hit ton of liability and thusly have policies to isolate themselves as much as possible. If their documentation can show they refused to draw the sample and didn't turn over their samples without a warrant then I'm fairly certain they are off scott free.

I also do not know of any laws that would allow a hospital to refuse law enforcement access to the patient assuming they were not in the midst of performing a procedure on said patient at the time of the LE request for access. As this patient was already clinically stabilized and admitted to the burn unit no such procedure was likely occurring at that time.

Sure a law enforcement blood sample does have a stricter chain of custody as the legal ramifications dictate but I also believe that the hospital sample carries a chain of custody as the drawing nurse signs the label on the vial. It's a stretch to claim that anyone can handle it and thusly taint it. I know of more then one person convicted of dui based solely on the sample obtained by the hospital while drawing the initial "rainbow" and later obtained by LE via warrant so we know the hospital draw is legal in court.

Again I am not defending this officers actions, but as Doc said there was likely a lot more to the story then we know so far. On the outside this appears horrendous and a poor job by the detective but I will withhold my opinion until more is known..

I imagine there will be some ethics committee meetings in the near future in that neighborhood.

Cop had no warrant, no consent, and the subject was not under arrest. At this point the officer has no legitimate law enforcement authority for his request. At this point his request has the same legitimacy as one from a homeless drunk, or a gang member or any other trespasser requesting access to a secure ward of the hospital.

Hmm. Not that I care at all whether you respect me or not... but what exactly would you suggest I--or any other ER doc--do in such a circumstance, other than the plan I outlined in the OP? Should I throw down on the cop? Start a gun battle right there with him? Get arrested for a felony and lose my medical license, just so this patient's blood remains sacrosanct?

And again, not that your approval was sought, but the object of our meeting was to come up with a plan to avoid any such a confrontation in our facility in the future, because it would be detrimental to the good order of our Department and our facility. I believe I made that very clear in the OP and again in my post this morning.We are not the ACLU. We are not the Southern Law Policy Center. We do not crusade for patients' constitutional rights. We are an Emergency Department; we treat emergent medical cases in accordance with the health care laws by which we are governed. The actions of other agents outside of our purview are not something we can or should interfere with.

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I am making a wild ass guess but I bet that the policy the nurse was standing on is hospital wide and not specific to the ED or burn unit. I am also guessing that the officers came to the ED first ad hat is their usual stop at the hospital. They likely told the ED charge nurse why they were there and she contacted the charge nurse from the burn unit to come down which was nurse Wuddel.

As to if a burn patient is at a higher risk of infection the answer is typically a resounding YES! Of course being in a burn unit doesn't necessitate the patient had life threatening burns although we appear to know that this patient had. That said I have yet to ever transport a patient to or from a burn unit that the patients wounds were not covered and that visitation wasn't allowed. Typically there is a cart with gloves, gowns, booties and masks outside each persons room for infection control as their needs dictate. I see very few reasons outside of a clinically unstable patient that the LE couldn't be adequately placed in PPE to enter the room.

I too have watched the entire 18 minute body cam footage and agree the detective said he didn't have PC to get a warrant. I am no police officer and don't claim to be but am very suspect of that statement as this was a fatality investigation since the fleeing felon died on scene so I question if that fact alone wouldn't be enough for a telephonic warrant.

Again just my guesses here and I applaud the nurse and frown on the detectives actions but that too think there is more to this story then has been released as to shy LE was so adamant for a sample.


Also for those saying the Supreme Court has stated warrantless blood draws are illegal that's not really true either if one reads the actual decision. What the SC stated was in "most" circumstances a warrant is needed but in the case of emergency or exigent circumstances a warrantless blood draw may indeed be legal and admissible in court. Sadly the SC gave no examples as to what they feel constitutes a situation for these exemptions.

Not looking for a fight sir but I am genuinely curious how you come to this conclusion. The Supreme Court decision states LE needs a warrant in most circumstances for a unconsented blood draw but they also state its permissible in emergency and exigency circustances. Sadly it doesn't list any such circumstances and leave too much grey area.

So from my reading the SC doesn't necessarily agree and it isn't an all or nothing deal. The case that everyone is talking about stating a warrant is needed is Missouri -vs - McNeely. In that very decision the justices cite SC cases where warrantless draws stood due to extigency.

SC ruling:
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/11-1425_cb8e.pdf

What could possibly go wrong having a cop cross trained as a phlebotomist? To circumvent hospital policies? To draw blood in every instance and throw away the samples when not needed?

There was a failure of leadership but it wasn't the hospitals failure. The fact that the patient wasn't under arrest, there was no PC and no warrant, nor did implied consent apply all illustrate that the law (which the cop didn't know changed a decade ago) favored the patient and by extension the nurse and hospital.

It's a shame that the us versus them has become so prevalent that a woman doing her nursing job within the scope of the law can be bullied and arrested at the hospital just because the cop doesn't like being told he can't violate the law there. I know some ER's that had the cop tried that he'd be dealing with a violent reaction from the male staff. The cop needs to find a more appropriate job, one that he actually understands. The same applies to his stupidvisor. They'll learn how to ask if you want fries with that and that's all the responsibility they should be given.

A cops responsibility is often in defiance of a healthcare workers oath. The two are not compatible in many cases and by following one you violate the other. When a patient is brought to the ED they become the responsibility of the hospital. The hospital has an obligation to follow the law and do what's in the best interest of the patient, especially when the patient is unconscious. Does anyone know if the cop/s that were involved with the chase and fatality collision had their blood drawn? Or was all the focus on an innocent victim and an innocent nurse?

When I worked at Harborview the ER staff had a good relationship with the various PD's but if this happened there I doubt that the nurse would have been taken to the patrol car by an overzealous cop. More likely he'd have been escorted out or worse. Some ER's are tougher than others. Dr. Copass would have had that cop wishing he'd knew the law better.

Hey Doc,
Staying on topic with your OP, let's take it a step further.
It sounds like the Hospital Super was in route or in the process. It also sounded like the Police Lt. had no interest in being there, only getting a blood draw.
That may be moot or not but.... Neither Supervisor was willing to back down on the phone and who says they would in person? Let's say both supervisors showed up and the same situation came about and the Lt. was going to arrest the hospital administrator like it or not. Next the Police Captain and head hospital dude show up and there is still a pissing match. I have noticed that the higher on the totem pole a person is, the more stubborn they can be.

If chain of command is going to strictly follow their policy on both sides, it's policy rather than leadership issues IMO.

Dash cam footage of the crash.

Doc,

I'd hope you did exactly what this nurse did, present the offending officer with the written agreement between your to agencies outlining why his request is not valid, call the hospital administrator, and not provide access to the patient. In this instance the patient was in the secure burn ward, so there was no need to tackle anyone, just don't open the door. And if the cop behaves like this one does, I want you to release the tape so the department can feel the full force of the public outrage at their unacceptable, unethical, and illegal behavior.

Sure, this nurse will be the eye of the storm for a short while, but it's likely to result in some positive change.

Would your course of action lead to the same degree of positive change?

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke


Obtaining a blood sample is not a matter of life and death for the cops. Interfering with the duties of nurses and doctors in an ER is a matter of life and death, not just for the patient in question but for the others too.

A doctor, nurse or any other medical worker has an obligation to their patient FIRST. A medical professional doesn't have an "obligation" to appease the police in order to stay friendly, not an ethical one anyway. Any HC professional that is willing to violate the law and the patients rights in order to avoid a conflict with the cops doesn't deserve to be a HC professional. Maybe a reserve phlebotomist cop but not a doctor, nurse or anyone that has contact with patients. 😉

Police officers chasing perp.
Perp drives erratic, crosses car lanes and strikes tanker truck.
Innocent Tanker truck driver, is badly burned. Put in medical induced Coma.
Transfered from ER to Burn unit.

Police officer wants innocent truck drivers blood.
Head Burn unit Nurse says no.
Its against the law, unconstitutional and against Hospital and LE agreements.
Police officer looses it.. his authority is questioned.
Arrests Nurse for protecting here comatose burned patient from having his rights violated.


I noticed a Doc here, would just let the cops do it?
Other LE says they should just be allowed to do it?


No, the Nurse was in the clear. Cop will end up loosing both his jobs.. Good.

Video was released ONE MONTH after the event because SLC PD was not doing anything to the Police officer.
Footage released.. suddenly on paid leave.



Is it any wonder people are complaining about cops violating minorities rights?
When in such a clear cut case, people are still saying SHE overreacted.
Wonder how blacks feels when they see other blacks shot and the Officer goes free..

Doc...

You're wise to be discussing this with your work group. It's much better to get these things worked out in advance, rather than under the pressure of the moment.

As you point out, one of the first things a new patient gets is a whole panel of blood tests so that treatment can be planned. That evidence is in independent, trustworthy hands (the hospital) and is surely available on competent legal authority. So why the heck was Detective Payne in such a major sweat to get an independent sample? That just makes no sense to me. I can't think of any legitimate reason for it.

I had not seen the Salt Lake Tribune videos until they were posted here. But we see Nurse Wubbel holding a document and explaining that it is the governing agreement between the police and the hospital, and that it stipulates that in order for him to have a sample, the patient has to be under arrest, or give consent, or a warrant is needed. The officer says, "So you're saying I'm not getting blood?". She stammers for an instant, and he proceeds to arrest her.

The video of the COP and Mayor's press conference contains the tidbit that the blood draw policy has been revised. I'll bet the policy was not liberalized.

My thought question for the moment is this:

If someone saunters into your ED, and announces that he's Hoboken Harry and His Traveling Phlebotomy Show, and that he's here to draw blood from one of your unconscious patients, are you going to let him? Knowing you from your posts, I think you are much more likely to ask your security to help you vigorously escort Harry out the door. ("And don't come back. Or the horse you rode in on.")

So the next question is, in this case, what authority does the police officer have that Hoboken Harry does not? He's not investigating a case. He has no warrant to serve. There is no possible exigency, because there is no open case against the unconscious patient. There are no laws being broken by anyone present. There is an existing policy between the hospital and the officer's Chief of Police that governs the case, and it says "no blood draw". What authority does the officer have to act?

If he has no authority to act, what is your obligation to your patient?

I think almost everyone here on the board treats our LEOs with respect and courtesy, as they ordinarily deserve. But I don't think any of us should assume that all orders or requests are lawful and should be granted. Studying Milgram's experiment on obedience to authority while I was in college rather permanently gave me a particular mindset. I suspect that yours may be about the same.

Great post, thanks

The hospital (U of U) has announced that police will no longer be allowed to interact with medical care personnel.

Listening between the lines of the CEO's statement, he was pretty pissed at his University Police.

This ought to get interesting. I wonder how he's going to keep them out?

I'd try to find some officers that uphold the Constitution and their oath. That would be a great start.

Easy. They will not be allowed into patient treatment areas.

I wonder how he's going to keep them out.