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#12264510 - 09/11/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: FC363]  
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antelope_sniper Offline
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Colorado
Originally Posted by FC363
I think most people's lack of results with Boat Tail bullets lies more with their chosen bullet than it does with the design. I don't have a single rifle that doesn't shoot Nosler BT's as well or better than anything else. As to the short grip subject, my .30BR only has about .135 of bullet seated into the neck when it's ready to fire, and it will make any factory cartridge look bad. Seating below the neck/shoulder junction can be bad for any bullet. Most FB bullets are about .0005 bigger at the base than the shank, and that can make a bullet fit the bore tight enough to make a difference.


Actually, the NBT's don't have much of a boat tail. The NBT is a very forgiving bullet, but those with a sharper boat tail are not.


Nobody spends somebody else’s money as carefully as he spends his own.
The U.S Government has a unique capacity for getting things upside down.
Milton Friedman.

Go quiet or full tilt, just don't get caught in the middle of the stupids. DD
CMG 300 BP

#12264724 - 09/11/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: FC363]  
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RiverRider Offline
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Originally Posted by FC363
Seating below the neck/shoulder junction can be bad for any bullet. Most FB bullets are about .0005 bigger at the base than the shank, and that can make a bullet fit the bore tight enough to make a difference.


How is the having the base of the bullet below the neck shoulder junction bad? And what difference does it make that the base of a FB buillet is 0.0005" larger than the shank (assuming that is necessarily so), since the whole thing is going down the bore anyway one way or another?

#12264849 - 09/11/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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sherm_61 Offline
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montana
Not saying seating bullets below the shoulder/neck junction wont shoot. Seating below the shoulder/neck junction takes up case capacity and changes internal case volume. I believe flat base bullets work better in barrels that the bore is a little large because they have more bearing surface. couple weeks ago i was reloading for a semi-custom gun and it would absolutely not shoot Berger VLD,s better than a 1"no matter what i did. I bought a box of Remington core-loc factory rounds and it shot them about 5/8" I believe it was the flat base bullet that made it shoot better. First time ever i tried bergers and could not get them to shoot in a Rifle. I don't believe it was the bullets fault.

#12265170 - 09/11/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: powdr]  
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Steve Redgwell Offline
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New Lowell, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by powdr
Steve, that's exactly what I do. I don't want the bullet below the base of the neck shoulder junction. It's just that some of the younger guys don't understand that it's not easy to shoot boat tails and keep them straight in the case w/only a slight grip on them. Wasn't trying to win anybody over or change anyone's mind. powdr


That's alright. I didn't figure you were trying to convince anybody of anything. How deep a bullet should be seated seems to generate that kind of discussion. Another is - which bullet is better - BT or FB. I wouldn't worry about them. Do what you like and what feels right.

Try this next time you're with a group of reloaders. It's guaranteed to stir things up. Tell whoever is listening that Nosler Partitions are garbage. They are terribly overrated. And it doesn't matter how deep you seat them. smile They are inaccurate and over priced. That will get the discussion going. After a bit, when they ask you what bullet you use, tell them Partitions - even if you don't. You'll get a bunch of puzzled looks. That stirs things up all over again. laugh


Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
www.303british.com

Ctg/rifle books, more!

Merda taurorum animas conturbit
#12265706 - 09/12/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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Dustylongshot Offline
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Colorado
I my experience it doesn't make much difference. Ten years of High Power Silhouette Shooting was all boat tails. Mostly Sierra'a and a few Hornadys and Speers when I was out of Sierras. The one exception is with factory Weatherby rifles. I have .257, 270, 7mm, 300, 30-378, 340, 338-378. none shoot boat tails worth a hoot, except the 340 which shoots 250 Sierra's great. That has been my experience. Mule Deer has had different results then me with his Weatherby's.

Alpha

#12266660 - 09/12/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: RiverRider]  
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FC363 Offline
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Originally Posted by RiverRider
Originally Posted by FC363
Seating below the neck/shoulder junction can be bad for any bullet. Most FB bullets are about .0005 bigger at the base than the shank, and that can make a bullet fit the bore tight enough to make a difference.


How is the having the base of the bullet below the neck shoulder junction bad? And what difference does it make that the base of a FB buillet is 0.0005" larger than the shank (assuming that is necessarily so), since the whole thing is going down the bore anyway one way or another?


Because the doughnut that forms at that spot can make pressures erratic and affect accuracy. You can use a reamer to get rid of it, or run the cases back through a case neck turner after it has been run over a mandrel.

You answered your own question with my comment. It makes the bullet fit tighter in the bore. Loose bores and bullets don't shoot very well.


"Give a lazy man the toughest job, and he will find the easiest way to do it"
#12266667 - 09/12/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: antelope_sniper]  
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FC363 Offline
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FC363  Offline
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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by FC363
I think most people's lack of results with Boat Tail bullets lies more with their chosen bullet than it does with the design. I don't have a single rifle that doesn't shoot Nosler BT's as well or better than anything else. As to the short grip subject, my .30BR only has about .135 of bullet seated into the neck when it's ready to fire, and it will make any factory cartridge look bad. Seating below the neck/shoulder junction can be bad for any bullet. Most FB bullets are about .0005 bigger at the base than the shank, and that can make a bullet fit the bore tight enough to make a difference.


Actually, the NBT's don't have much of a boat tail. The NBT is a very forgiving bullet, but those with a sharper boat tail are not.

They may not have as extreme of a BT as some others, but no one can make the argument that they're a Flat Base bullet.


"Give a lazy man the toughest job, and he will find the easiest way to do it"
#12268499 - 09/13/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: FC363]  
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RiverRider Offline
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Originally Posted by FC363
Originally Posted by RiverRider
Originally Posted by FC363
Seating below the neck/shoulder junction can be bad for any bullet. Most FB bullets are about .0005 bigger at the base than the shank, and that can make a bullet fit the bore tight enough to make a difference.


How is the having the base of the bullet below the neck shoulder junction bad? And what difference does it make that the base of a FB buillet is 0.0005" larger than the shank (assuming that is necessarily so), since the whole thing is going down the bore anyway one way or another?


Because the doughnut that forms at that spot can make pressures erratic and affect accuracy. You can use a reamer to get rid of it, or run the cases back through a case neck turner after it has been run over a mandrel.

You answered your own question with my comment. It makes the bullet fit tighter in the bore. Loose bores and bullets don't shoot very well.


If I am understanding your intent, you are pointing out this dimensional characteristic (which I am accepting at face value for argument's sake) in conjunction with any hint of "the dreaded donut" are acting in concert and in a deleterious manner. Interesting analysis.

I've perceived the presence of the dreaded donut myself and have no reservations that it certainly can develop. In my opinion, it can and will have negative impacts on ammo quality regardless of the bullet type used.

Can you point me to an authoritative source on the 0.0005" base diameter disparity? There's lots of chatter to be found on the net, but as so often is the case the real bottom-line information can be hard to dig up.

#12269149 - 09/13/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: RiverRider]  
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FC363 Offline
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Originally Posted by RiverRider
Originally Posted by FC363
Originally Posted by RiverRider
Originally Posted by FC363
Seating below the neck/shoulder junction can be bad for any bullet. Most FB bullets are about .0005 bigger at the base than the shank, and that can make a bullet fit the bore tight enough to make a difference.


How is the having the base of the bullet below the neck shoulder junction bad? And what difference does it make that the base of a FB buillet is 0.0005" larger than the shank (assuming that is necessarily so), since the whole thing is going down the bore anyway one way or another?


Because the doughnut that forms at that spot can make pressures erratic and affect accuracy. You can use a reamer to get rid of it, or run the cases back through a case neck turner after it has been run over a mandrel.

You answered your own question with my comment. It makes the bullet fit tighter in the bore. Loose bores and bullets don't shoot very well.


If I am understanding your intent, you are pointing out this dimensional characteristic (which I am accepting at face value for argument's sake) in conjunction with any hint of "the dreaded donut" are acting in concert and in a deleterious manner. Interesting analysis.

I've perceived the presence of the dreaded donut myself and have no reservations that it certainly can develop. In my opinion, it can and will have negative impacts on ammo quality regardless of the bullet type used.

Can you point me to an authoritative source on the 0.0005" base diameter disparity? There's lots of chatter to be found on the net, but as so often is the case the real bottom-line information can be hard to dig up.


It's well known that Benchrest bullets that are Flat based using the J4 jacket develop a slightly larger diameter at the base when the bullet is pointed up in manufacture. It depends on the thickness of the jacket whether or not a usual hunting bullet would have the same condition. Go to any dedicated Benchrest site, or even the Competition forum here on the 'Fire. If a search doesn't turn anything up, I'm sure one of them can tell you about it. I have heard that K&M makes a tool that gets rid of the donut by reaming and turning at the same time, but I have never seen one. Never really looked for it either as I have the tools to do both. All of the books written by David Tubb, Tony Boyer, Mike Ratigan, and Sinclair Intl go to great lengths discussing the donut. How it's formed, it's effects, how to get rid of it, and how to work around it, which in a nutshell is to avoid seating a bullet that deep in the case by having the barrel throated to accept your bullet at a length that prevents it.


"Give a lazy man the toughest job, and he will find the easiest way to do it"
#12269192 - 09/13/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: FC363]  
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antelope_sniper Offline
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Colorado
Originally Posted by FC363
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by FC363
I think most people's lack of results with Boat Tail bullets lies more with their chosen bullet than it does with the design. I don't have a single rifle that doesn't shoot Nosler BT's as well or better than anything else. As to the short grip subject, my .30BR only has about .135 of bullet seated into the neck when it's ready to fire, and it will make any factory cartridge look bad. Seating below the neck/shoulder junction can be bad for any bullet. Most FB bullets are about .0005 bigger at the base than the shank, and that can make a bullet fit the bore tight enough to make a difference.


Actually, the NBT's don't have much of a boat tail. The NBT is a very forgiving bullet, but those with a sharper boat tail are not.

They may not have as extreme of a BT as some others, but no one can make the argument that they're a Flat Base bullet.


Don't think of it as a binary question. The shape of the boat tail matters.


Nobody spends somebody else’s money as carefully as he spends his own.
The U.S Government has a unique capacity for getting things upside down.
Milton Friedman.

Go quiet or full tilt, just don't get caught in the middle of the stupids. DD
Bravo

#12274360 - 09/16/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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JGray Offline
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Helena, MT
Originally Posted by ALLongshot
How many of you have rifles that just doesn't like boat tail bullets? What style have you had better luck with? I understand the concept of the boat tail design but for my hunting situations I have no place to shoot over 250 yards, so the design doesn't have that many advantages at that distance.

To answer the original post, one rifle stands out - a Kimber 325 WSM I picked up off the used rack at the LGS. I really wanted to shoot the 200 Accubond and started with that. They shot horribly and my first thought was - 'crap, lost at Kimber roulette'. It wouldn't shoot E-tips or Ballistic Tips either. Then I loaded three different flat base bullets with the same powder as the Accubond and shot back to back sub-MOA groups with all three.

I generally seem to get to a good shooting load quicker with flat base bullets than boat tails, but not always. My new Ruger African 275 Rigby is shooting the 160 Accubond better than any flat base bullet I've tried so far.

Last edited by JGray; 09/16/17.
#12277105 - 09/17/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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hanco Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
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Texas
I have a L-61 pre Garcia in 270 that will not shoot boat tail bullets at all. It's great with flat base Sierra's. Only rifle I've had like that.

#12278113 - 09/18/17 Re: Boat tails vs flat base bullets [Re: ALLongshot]  
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Uncas Offline
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Uncas  Offline
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Kansas and Alaska
Predicting an accuracy outcome is silly!
I have dozens of loads that should not be accurate...but ARE.
Two different length 30/40 Krag Contenders I own shoot most everything well in spite of about 3/4 inch of FREEBORE. 150 Sierras RN crimped or 165 Accubonds not crimped...are one holers, as are 190 AB LRs , as are 147 pulled FMJs over a pinch and a half of Unique. A six inch 25/20 SSK barrel is well under a MOA subsonic or 1600 fps with Speer 75 grain flatpoints.
Nosler BTs and Sierra BTs and especially Barnes TSX BTs are some of my very best consistant and deadly hand loads.
Shoot more...worry less. Best Wishes.


Watch 'Yer Topknot!
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