Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire The Nurse Arrest: A Failure in Leadership

LOL. good luck with that.

Can't even get them to uphold the law when it comes to antifa ....

They aren't all jackwagons. If more of the good ones start policing the bad ones, stuff like this would be almost nonexistent.

I haven't seen this mentioned and whether it's relevant in this case. Some years back I worked in a small county run hospital in north Arkansas. From time to time a LEO would bring in an individual for blood alcohol to be drawn. The state provided a "kit" for the withdrawal that did not have a skin cleansing solution. All blood alcohols must be drawn with a skin cleanser that does not contain alcohol. (I used Phisohex) This is not true for medical draws.

I see that the nurse's actions have now led to the "positive change" of the hospital administrator barring further interaction with police. Yeah, that's an impressive accomplishment. The record of leadership failure in that situation and those organizations continues.

I can't positively know if the way I would handle a similar situation in my Department would be more successful than the Utah nurse's, but I am reasonably sure it would. In 27 years of Emergency Medicine I have cooled off more than a few dangerous confrontations. And my hospital and physician group and local Sheriff seem to think so as well.

Hospital "leadership" might want to keep in mind that anyone with the gravitas to clearly present a potentially dangerous set of behaviors to a magistrate can then set in motion the process to have that person brought to the ER to be evaluated....

If the potentially dangerous to self and others person happen to be a bully LEO that the ER doc had ALREADY been observing for the past hour or so, the psychiatric commitment might just be a slam dunk.

Obviously playing that card would only be done in an extreme situation.... but leaked security footage of something like that would blow up Youtube in an instant.....

Wha?

Are you suggesting that ER docs could respond to LE bullies by sectioning them to the ER for a psych eval?

Doc, I grant you this is turning into an even bigger Charlie Foxtrot, and the level of incompetence on both sides might be greater then I imagined. I'm still trying to figure out how the hospital plans to bar all interactions between the police and their staff. If the police show up with a warrant, some interaction will need to occur. Will the locals be required to hand it off to the University police? In Colorado and Wyoming the "University Police" are State Police.

According to the Nurse in the video the bulling of medical personal by the local PD was an ongoing issue. Knocking them down a few notches by making the cops wait in the car might be the type of wake up call the PD management needs. How many police commanders are now considering the possibility they could be bared from interactions with Hospital personal in their AO if their failures of leadership allow, or in this case, order their officers to arrest innocent medical personal.?

To take this measure, the Hospital must be very unhappy with the last of PD. If they don't pick up the pace, I wonder if the hospital will ask the Fed's to come take a look?

Anyone can go to a magistrate and present the reasons they believe someone is a danger.... if they convince the magistrate that these concerns have merit then an order is given to have that person brought to the ER. At this point it is up to an MD to decide if the person is out of control enough to be committed.

I can't imagine the system making that happen unless it was a pretty black and white case, but that is an option.

Denton...

As a physician, my obligation to my patient extends to the limit of my ability to provide medical care to him for his medical needs. I have no obligation to provide for his security of person outside of the scope of my practice. I do not own the hospital, and despite my training and former role in LE, I do not have a contract to provide security in the hospital to my patients or my staff, and if I presume to do so, even if I do not commit a crime I can be terminated by my physician organization and lose my hospital privileges, and if my actions are deemed to be criminal, the State may well suspend or revoke my license.

On a more practical note: I am obligated to provide medical care not to just the one patient who is threatened with a possibly illegal venipuncture, I am obligated to provide care for the patients in 14 other ER beds and 8 Urgent Care beds, as well as the supervisory services I'm obligatd to provide to 2 nurse practitioners, 6 RN's, 2-3 LVN's, and a host of other staff. Taking upon myself the role of civil rights protector to one patient in a situation such as the Utah case would put that entire organization, and all those other sick and injured patients, in jeopardy for hours and could even lead to some becoming gravely ill or even dying.

Even more practically speaking: a venipuncture is an almost trivial medical procedure. The physical and medical harm likely to come from an "illegal" venipuncture is almost nonexistent. The only real harm that is likely to come from it to my unconscious-and-unable-to-consent patient is a legal harm, not a medical one. And the lawyers for the patient, and the hospital, are quite likely to have any evidnce thus obtained declared inadmissible, so the risk of legal harm is practically as infinitesimal as that of real medical harm.

So: my adamant opposition to a LEO bent on getting a vial of blood that will result in no real harm to him, even if illegally obtained, could well result in substantial harm to any number of persons should I get myself arrested, or tased, or pepper sprayed, or even shot by this rogue cop.

These are the considerations I've been been taking into a account since I first saw the Utah video on Friday. These, and many others which are purely administrative in nature but are part of my job to consider as a physician leader. I am very confident that in such a situation I could defuse the bomb before it was lit, and I have good reasons for this confid nice. This sort of confidence requires experience in leadership, a discipline I've been training in for most of my 63 years. I would also rely on all my wiles, my cagey ability to flimflam, my position of Medical Authority (caps added tongue-in-cheek), my experience as a LEO (I still carry my badge), and anything else I could think of to get the cop (and my nurse!) to stand down and wait for the hospital administrator and police supervisor to come down to sort out the conflict. And I would use my "connections", for lack of a better word, to be sure those people arrived promptly.

Go back and re-read Mackey Sagebrush's post on how HE dealt with a similar set of problems in his dealings with a nurse he perceived as being obstructive. I previously alluded to the fact that I have had similar success in such situations. THAT is how a smart and sensible man deals with these things. Not by standing on a principle and to Hell with the consequences, but by finding a solution. That is what I do well. That is why I have been selected to run a busy and bloody ER. That is what I do.

Still, if it come down to the nut and I had to make a choice between letting that cop draw the blood that I believed he had no right to take or get myself arrested or beat up in opposing him, with all attendant harms that would devolve upon my Department, I would choose the the path that follows the Doctrine of Competing Harms, and I would choose the least harmful option. Not for my sake, not because I'm afraid of a fight, but for the sake of the greater good of the persons relying on me to fulfill my obligations to them to the best of my ability.

Does that answer your question, my friend? I expect the ethical subtleties of this answer may fly well above the heads of some here, but you asked... 😬

Now, on that note, I'm going to bed. I had a long 14 hours in my ER today and I have another shift tomorrow that promises to be equally challenging. I'll leave you chaps to chew the fat on this until tomorrow night. Good night.

Antelope Sniper... good question, the Feds and all... or possibly the Governor's office? I'll have to think about it. Now, I gotta get to bed. I'll get back to you on this. I have an early meeting with Administration tomorrow to discuss these issues further as they apply to our Hospital. Gnite.

She done exceedingly well all the same;... calm,courteous, composed, polite, rational, mature, responsible,
following due process, lawful and professional.

but obviously not good enough for a belligerent jackboot Leo...



Bingo....yet someone felt the need to start this thread on a pretense or quackery.

The three (3) police Depts involved were not interested in due process or the requirements of the LAW.
University of Utah police
Salt Lake City police
Dept. of Public Safety

University and Salt Lake Dept. both signed and assisted in creating the Blood Draw Agreement with the hospital,
but demonstrated total disregard for it.
Pub.Safety Dept. officers were not worth a drop of stale goat piss, instead taking the side of LEO group thuggery
and unlawfulness.

(an important distinction) Hospital was being sensibly pro-active ,
LE was recklessly reactive and impetuous.

It does indeed. Thank you. Have a good night's rest.

Added:

I'm sure that the CEO's position is a negotiating tactic. An accord will be reached, but not before concessions and officer training at the PD.

I really like the arrangement I saw in Idaho Falls. As you walk in the ER door, on your left you pass the front door of a police sub-station within the hospital. There are always officers there, and when seconds count they really are only seconds away.

The cop's motivation for getting the blood draw has been missed and is central to this particular situation. The cops chase will likely be held as a major factor in the injuries suffered by the truck driver/victim. Getting a blood sample showing the victim was dui would not change his legal position as it would be inadmissible. But, it would absolutely color any negotiations over how much the victim or his heirs could receive.

So, in reality, there is potential for significant monetary harm to the victim. For the hospital to decide to stand aside and allow unlawful draws just because it is easier than following an agreement and written policy already in place is not the adult answer. Cooling down the rogue cop in this case is the right answer, by whatever means needed, but standing aside would never be right.

Further, the fact this event is triggering very delayed actions shows a cover-up of the worst kind.

The requirement to get the blood sample revolved around federal law (DOT/CDL) correct? These local cops are performing an unfunded mandate. The after action/lessons learned on this is to change local police policy to not get involved in taking blood samples. If DOT require a blood sample, let them enforce it with federal law enforcement.

I think it was St. Augustine who said;"The world is a safe judge."

The overwhelming majority of persons, not just on this forum but across the internet, believe the Nurse was in the right and the Cop was in the wrong.

The small but extremely persistent minority who support the Cop's actions are usually members of Law Enforfement Agencies or have close ties to that community.

The length of this thread is a testimonial to their persistence in defending cops, just because they are cops.

St. Augustine would have locked this thread after two long pages.😀

The CYA aspect of this is what's worth discussing, but it is lost for the most part on this forum.

I did not realize until many pages in that the police stalling is what led to the public release of videos. The lack of leadership in the police force and the mayor's office becomes much more obvious.

Oh they have leadership all right Art, leadership that wants to maintain the status quo. Not unlike a few posters here who justify their existence with bullsh!t...

The whole incident is another huge blemish on an otherwise noble profession. Truth is it shouldn't have gone down this way and in this instance the legal profession should clean up it's own mess. Don Quijote de la Jack Ass had no authority other than his gun and badge to gallop in and take over an ER but he, they did and in the process gave credibility to the charges that law enforcement actually has nothing to do with the law.

Joe

Like I said earlier, I don't see this working out well for the cop or his supervisor. At any point in time that we tolerate the outside the law activity of our police we are asking for more of the same. The more I think about it, the more obvious it becomes that like Doc Rocket resisting up to the point of further resistance endangering his patent(s) more so than standing aside, the city must make an example of this. First, the officer should be flat out fired. Second, his supervisor who ordered him to engage in unlawful activity needs to be fired. That without question cannot be tolerated in any way by the city. Any tolerance whatsoever simply put as possible forms basis for the next incident as a pattern of behavior and punitive damages. There is no rationale that allows unlawful activity available here. None. The cop admitted he had no basis for the illegal search and seizure. Lastly, the officers who stood by and watched the unlawful activity happen need severe sanctioning At the very least, the same action the nurse went through needed to be done by at least one of them. The cop needed to be informed that he was engaged in an illegal search and seizure and that he was subject to arrest until and unless he could present exigent circumstance rationale. It's pretty difficult for me to conceive of a reason not to arrest the cop for assault from what is available in the video, In that light, a strong case can be made for their dismissal as well.

The nurse should have and probably would have been sanctioned had she not obtained the written policy and read it to the cop, asked for the warrant, consent or probable cause and without being presented with one of them allowing access to a burn patient. The risk of venipuncture of and by itself on a reasonably healthy individual is indeed small. Thousands of addicts stand as testament to that. ICU burn patients fall under a well considered and enforced hospital policy for good reason. She did what she was required to do and as she was supposed to do it.

Had the cop tried to access the patient without following hospital protocol for burn patients the the hospital official closest to the situation should have and likely would have requested security remove him from the grounds.

I have little doubt that had Doc Rocket been there he could have simply provided a lot more time for the cop to think this through while he scrubbed, gowned and gloved all the while being counseled about what he was about to do. The thought of being held legally and personally responsibly for infecting a critically ill person during an unlawful search and seizure might well have dissuaded him.