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[quote=Mule Deer Of course, they still have to hit the birds[/quote]
And that is the crux of the matter. The shot type is a hardware fix for a software problem. If the shooter cannot hit the bird, it does not matter what is used. In the days of lead shot a number of birds were lost for the same reasons as they are lost today- mainly poor shooting. I believe it was Bob Brister who initially brought this up but It could have been Tom Roster. If one has the skill and knowledge to consistantly put the densest part of the pattern on the bird and an appropriate size shot and choke is used for the range, then the bird will be killed.
The issue, in my eyes, is the typical shooter can't consistently hit the bird with the densest part of the pattern. That is borne out but the number of broken winged birds and "gut shot" birds that one sees brought down by typical shooters regardless of range. Centeing the pattern on the bird will lead to the half dozen or so pellets hitting the bird and providing they are in the front half, the bird will be killed.
I push competition as the scorecard doesn't lie and one can't fudge their results with a selective memory. To make honest progress honesty is needed in marking results and that is best done on paper. Plus, a competitive event provides access to more accomplished shooters who may be able to provide help in overcoming problems. One is not likely to get this shooting a couple rounds of trap or "pasture clays" with their buddies.
I agree that many shooters do not pick the best shells for the purpose but that has always been the case and always will. The most expensive shells are not necessarily the best nor are the lesser priced ones poor. It takes some time and money at the patterning board as well as use on game to determine what will work well. The heavier than steel shot do indeed leave a more visible affect when they hit the target but do not necessarily kill better. I have seen their effects from my own use as well as watching many more rounds fired by others. I use the other options over steel in everything less then 12 ga due to payload and velocity but for the 12 and 10 ga I am satisfied with steel.
I hope this doesn't sound snarky, if so I didn't mean to be so. I just approach this problem from a different direction. I think skill trumps equipment in the overall scheme of things though you would be hard pressed to believe this if you looked through my shooting equipment. I also hope it is not too disjointed as I am trying to get this done at work and duty keeps pulling me away.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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woodsmaster,
Thanks for your response. Here's how I came to my conclusions.
I knew Bob Brister very well. I first met him in the 1980's, when we were working for the same magazine, and we ended up doing a lot of shotgunning together, both of targets and birds, as well as a lot of cussing and discussing shotguns. When we met I'd already read his classic book on shotguns more than once, and he very graciously signed it for me.
One of the occasions when we hunted together occurred in 1996, when Federal was about to introduce its first "hard tungsten" factory loads. I'd already been shooting bismuth in the field for a while, to find out what it was all about, so wasn't unfamiliar with alternatives to steel shot, but to really give the new tungsten shot a valid field-trial Federal took me, Bob, and two other gun writers to Argentina, where we could shoot a LOT more waterfowl than in the U.S. In fact Federal flew 105 cases of ammo down, not all tungsten but some lead, for testing on the abundant upland birds down there. Among the results of the extensive field-testing were some strong suggestions from Bob to the Federal guys, made one evening toward the end of the hunt, about the basics of shot and killing birds.
At any rate, I've done a lot of similar tests since, though unfortunately not with Bob, because he got too old to travel much anymore, and then passed away. Aside from returning to Argentina, I've tested new kinds of shotshells (and shotguns) extensively in South Africa (which if anything has better hunting than Argentina) and in Canada, where the limits aren't as large as Argentina but often more than in the U.S.--with the exception of snow geese, which I've also hunted during spring in the Midwest.
On one of the snow-goose shoots I was working with bismuth in a 3-1/2" 12-gauge, and since the geese were hard to decoy close (as they often are, due to being shot at a lot) most were taken at longer ranges. My wife and I got to take all the geese home, partly because she's a game cookbook writer and needs lots of wild specimens for working up recipes, and partly because nobody else wanted any. (Apparently not many people know how to cook snow geese.) Now, one other shooter in our group tended to claim he killed almost any goose that fell in the direction he was shooting, but when we got home and processed all the birds, we found the vast majority were killed with bismuth--including one I'd marked, because that other guy claimed he'd killed it. He was shooting steel, like everybody except my wife and I.
The last such field-test occurred two years ago in Alberta, where my wife and I hunt frequently, both for cookbook birds and testing the latest non-toxic loads. On that trip there were two main shotgun goals, new non-steel loads in her 20-gauge and softer non-steel loads in my Spanish 10-gauge double, including both handloads and factory with bismuth and soft ITX shot. We hunted with an outfitter we've known since the early 1990's, and shared the blind with a pair of brothers from Calgary, who've also hunted with the outfitter several times. They're good shots but only used steel. The very first day we got a good supply of birds to take home, so after that I started experimenting with the 10 more. Eventually I ended up waiting until after everybody else shot at a flock of decoyed birds, then unlimbered the 10. This obviously resulted in longer shots at birds going away, either quartering or directly, yet I ended up dropping ducks and geese at ranges the guys using steel wouldn't even attempt.
We were not just shooting greater Canadas, but lessers, white-fronted geese and occasional snows, along with some ducks. The denser patterns of the smaller, heavier shot in the 10 made a very noticeable difference. This is one aspect of wingshooting many hunters don't understand: Bigger birds are actually easier to kill with less-dense patterns, because more shot is likely to hit bigger birds. I've seen this again and again not just when hunting waterfowl, but bigger upland birds, especially sage grouse with a 20 or 28-gauge.
So yes, my experience is different than yours, and the reasons I've found heavier non-toxics to kill birds better are the same outlined by Bob Brister when he talked to the guys are Federal over 20 years ago. He knew a lot of about shot not just from studying it or shooting clays, but because he made a large part of his early living shooting live birds in competitions, both waterfowl and pigeons. (In fact he built a big house in Houston mostly on the proceeds from his live pigeon shooting.) While he also did well in clay-bird shoots (he was one of the major figures in bringing Sporting Clays to the U.S.) he always preferred shooting birds, and shooting birds is different than shooting clays. First you have to drop them, not just break them, and that requires penetration--especially on going-away birds. Plus, as he often pointed out, clays are easier to hit because they're more predictable, and slow down after being thrown.
His major points in selecting loads for birds were: 1) Use shot hard enough to retain its shape, rather than flatten or break up, which not only produces better patterns but increases penetration. 2) Use shot dense enough to penetrate well. 3) Use loads with enough pellets to result in sufficiently dense patterns to make hitting vital areas more likely.
All of Bob's list is why various kinds of heavier non-toxic shot kill birds better than steel. You can use smaller shot for a denser pattern, yet retains its velocity better at longer range, and penetrates even deeper. More deep-penetrating shot in a bird results in more quick kills.
Steel works very well within its range, especially modern high-velocity steel loads in larger shot sizes, partly because it's hard, conforming to (1). I once astonished some pheasant-hunting companions when hunting a creek here in Montana. Late in the season it was common to also jump mallards, so I used steel shot, and in a light 20-gauge, because shots were likely to be quick and relatively close, usually not more than 30-35 yards. The steel crumpled both roosters and mallards, and eventually the other folks had to ask what I was using in "that little 20." They were flabbergasted when they found it was steel.
But the light weight of steel pellets still creates a ballistic wall beyond a certain range, both in velocity and penetration. They slow down faster, and in the term often used by rifle hunters, they lack "sectional density," the relationship between frontal area and weight, which helps penetration. Yes, steel works fine in the 12 and 10 gauges at typical goose ranges, but when ranges become marginal for steel, whether due to its lower velocity or thinner patterns, the other non-toxics work noticeably better. It's basic physics, which is exactly what Bob Brister pointed out that evening in Argentina long ago.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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John,
Have you tried 18 or 19g shot yet?
It's a bit overkill in 10 and 12, but it's an eye opener in smaller gauges. ITX, Hevi, or other available HD NTs don't even come close.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I've tried it a little in 20-gauge, but so far very little. The basic principle, of course, is good!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Cost of Bismuth is coming down. So in the future it may well be the shot I pick. It is not there yet. As a reloader with a 10ga. I can create shells with steel that fit any waterfowl hunting situation. They work exceptionally well within the limitations of Steel shot. In the 3" 12ga, If a person shoots within the limitations of a 1 1/4oz 1400fps load of #2 Steel shot. That person will kill lots of birds, as long as they can put the pattern on the bird. I have shot enough high density shot to understand how it performs better at longer range. But with the waterfowl shotgun the goal I have, is to go hunting. When most hunters can hit the local sporting goods store and buy 3, 25 round box's of 3" 1 1/4oz steel shells for less than a 10 round box of high density. Most of us will be shooting the Steel shot and killing birds well enough.
The anti American Constitutional party (Democrat). Wants to dismantle your rights, limiting every aspect of your constitutional rights. Death by 1000 cuts is the tactic. Each cut bleeds constitutional rights to control you. Control is the goal.
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I gave up waterfowl hunting for several years because of the poor performance of steel shot and unproven early non-toxic loads.
A group of us now hunt cranes about 30 days a year and we've tried many different shots sizes and loads as they came on the market.
Most of our shots are long....50 yards is common. We've all settled on 3" Federal steel @ 1550 FPS. At first we tried the larger shot sizes but eventually settled for mostly #2 steel as any pellet that hits the long wing bones or neck will bring em down.
One member uses the Remington 1700 FPS with great success but the recoil is considerable.
All of use Patternmaster choke tubes.
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Question - does Bismuth shot have a shelf-life? Reason I ask is I have a couple of boxes of 'vintage' Bismuth (20 plus yrs old. They are branded "Bismuth" - dark green box with red lettering, mostly 12 ga, 3" #2 and BBs, 10rnds per box). Last time I picked up the boxes it seemed like the shot had turned to a fine powder and/or the shells themselves seemed 'not quite full' as if the shot had condensed. I'd hope this wouldn't be the case with the newer Kent Bismuth.
I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.
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These geese were killed with my 1878 Westley Richards with 1 1/2 0z of #2 Bismuth and 85 grains of FFG in a Mag Tech brass case. They went down just as hard as if they were shot with modern steel ammo moving 350 FPS faster! I have since changed my loads a bit but have not found much difference in killing power. All of my BP guns are cylinder bore BTW , except for my modern Pedersoli hammer 12, which I sometimes use , but it is still choked CYL/IC. Cat
Last edited by catnthehat; 10/20/18.
scopes are cool, but slings 'n' irons RULE!
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I have heard the same and Kent comes to mind as one of the best bang for the buck. I have a 1960 vintage Belgium made Browning Auto 5 that might come out to play. Also have a Benelli Super Black Eagle II but it’s not the same.
Keep your powder dry and stay frosty my friends.
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Campfire Ranger
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Since I didn’t see it... weight wise
Steel shot = 7.5 grams per cc Lead = 11 grams per cc
So when you see HW 13.. that’s 13 grams per cc (heavier than lead) HW 15 = 15 grams per cc - HW 18... wow.
HW 15 shot size 6 will penetrate gel like BB Steel shot at 65-73 yards !! (But you have a bunch more pellets)
for Duck as Mule Deer said a 12 gauge 3” 1 shot to 3 shot inside of 40 yards - you need nothing more... The 2 best steel loads - Federal premium, or REmington nitro steel .. Don’t fall for the blind side / black cloud BS - they decided if they didn’t trim the edges off the square stock that was cut and molded via a die into a round shot they could save money and sell it as extre deadly ... but after it flys a way it does screwy stuff, so the longer pattern suck. * another thing - get Carlson extended waterfoul chokes for your gun if it has choke tubes, your patterns will improve wildly.
The trade off of course is cost. The best deal going on HW15 shot is at Rogers sporting goods if you buy a case you get a box 12 gauge 3.5” (5 each) for 12.99.. Just the shot alone costs that much.
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Question - does Bismuth shot have a shelf-life? Reason I ask is I have a couple of boxes of 'vintage' Bismuth (20 plus yrs old. They are branded "Bismuth" - dark green box with red lettering, mostly 12 ga, 3" #2 and BBs, 10rnds per box). Last time I picked up the boxes it seemed like the shot had turned to a fine powder and/or the shells themselves seemed 'not quite full' as if the shot had condensed. I'd hope this wouldn't be the case with the newer Kent Bismuth. Curious here too. I had a box of .410 Bi I bought when it first came out, maybe close to 20 years old now. I know the price tag is still on it at $34.99. But wonder if it would deteriorate after that much time.
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I did, and it did. Bear in mind this was Bismuth branded ammo, not the newer Kent stuff.
I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.
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