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#12255996 - 09/07/17 Powders for 7x57 Mauser  
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tzone Offline
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First, thanks to all that have helped so far on all my reloading questions!

Next, what powders should I be looking at for loading my Mauser? I have IMR 4350 and understand it may be temp sensitive. I also have Varget on hand. From what I'm reading on here and in articles, this may not be the best for the 7x57?

It looks like W760 should be on my short list.

What others and why?

Thanks again.

AIH 300 L
 
#12256045 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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H4350, Ramshot Big Game and RL17 are worth considering especially with 140gn & 150gn bullets

#12256118 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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Add IMR4451 to that list.


John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015
#12256122 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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If temp sensitivity is an issue then skip the W760/H414.

#12256129 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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The 7x57 is at a case capacity to bore size ratio where the optimum class of powders will shift with bullet weight.

#12256192 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: mathman]  
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Originally Posted by mathman
If temp sensitivity is an issue then skip the W760/H414.


Well, I'm not positive it is. I've just been loading with imr 4350 because that's what I have. And almost all the reloading data shows it in their manuals. That's the reason I got it to start with.

#12256193 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: Mule Deer]  
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Add IMR4451 to that list.


Sounds good. Any particular reason or you've just had good results?

#12256197 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: dingo]  
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Originally Posted by dingo


H4350, Ramshot Big Game and RL17 are worth considering especially with 140gn & 150gn bullets


It seems to like 139/140gr pretty well so far.

#12256286 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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IMR4451 and H4350 are temperature insensitive powders suitable for IMR4350 friendly applications. Both go through a powder measure better than the IMR version.

#12256299 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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How about RL19? I see that listed quite often as well.

#12256327 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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Bad temp sensitivity reputation.

#12256348 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: mathman]  
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Originally Posted by mathman
IMR4451 and H4350 are temperature insensitive powders suitable for IMR4350 friendly applications. Both go through a powder measure better than the IMR version.


Any non-industry tests on IMR4451 that show it is in fact temperature insensitive?


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#12256360 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: roundoak]  
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I don't have any tests. Is the claim suspect?

#12256401 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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If your google fu is strong you can find a couple on the web comparing the two. Those I have read indicate that 4451 is not as insensitive as H4350, but not too far off and certainly better than, say, IMR4350. BUT those I have read are flawed in that they only chill the ammunition, not the rifle.


Tzone, as I mentioned in the other thread, try H4831 with heavy bullets.


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Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
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#12256415 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: mathman]  
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Originally Posted by mathman
The 7x57 is at a case capacity to bore size ratio where the optimum class of powders will shift with bullet weight.



I had to read that twice,but it's true,I think. grin

#12256417 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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I won't use Winchester powders in general -- bad temp sensitivity. Exception for me is 296 AKA H110 -- I use in 44 mag.

IMR4350 is less temp sensitive than 760, I believe. H4350 is probably better yet. IMR4451 is also good.


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#12256431 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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Thanks guys! I really appreciate it!

#12256445 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: ruraldoc]  
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Originally Posted by ruraldoc
Originally Posted by mathman
The 7x57 is at a case capacity to bore size ratio where the optimum class of powders will shift with bullet weight.



I had to read that twice,but it's true,I think. grin


For example, you'll see a bigger shift in optimum powder moving from 120 to 175 grain bullets in 7x57 than you will moving from 125 to 180 grain bullets in 308 Winchester.

#12256517 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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I've had good success with 140 to 150 gr bullets and a case full of R19. Never did any serious testing for temperature sensitivity, but shot deer, antelope and elk under all sorts of conditions with no problems. Had a great 120 gr load with IMR 4007, alas it is gone. My 2 rifles are not very sensitive and shoot well with a variety of powders. H4350 is tough to beat for an all around powder. H4831 is also useful.

#12256540 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: mathman]  
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Originally Posted by mathman
I don't have any tests. Is the claim suspect?


Just skeptical of manufacture advertising hype. Would like to see hard data.

I purchased 4451 to try in my 7x57s because ran out of my H4350 supply. It did not approach the accuracy of H4350 in three bullet weights, 140 150 and 160. IMR 4350 was better with 140 and 150 grs but not as good with 160 gr.


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#12256551 - 09/07/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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I haven't messed around much with Big Game yet, but Hunter seems to perform well with 160- and 175-gr bullets. I expect it will do well with 154-grain Interlocks as well, which I plan to test once Hurricane Irma gets through with us. As for temp sensitivity, most of my shooting is in temps in the upper 80s and low 90s, down to maybe the mid 40s. Someone else can speak to this, but I don't think that's enough of a spread to matter much.


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#12259577 - 09/08/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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What is the loading range (start/max) for 160-175 bullets with Hunter?


Ed

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#12260101 - 09/09/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: Prwlr]  
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Originally Posted by Prwlr
RevMike

What is the loading range (start/max) for 160-175 bullets with Hunter?


Good morning from breezy Florida.

I posted this a while back on the "Good 7x57 Loads" thread, but below is Ramshot data for both Big Game and Hunter. At this point I haven't done much of anything with 154-grain bullets - I'll get around to it - but the 160s at an estimated 2550-2600 fps, and the 175s at about 2350-2400 shoot very well in both my Montana ASR and M98. These velocities are estimates since I haven't run them through a chronograph yet - I'm waiting for a bit of cooler weather - but they ought to be close in 24 inch barrels. The 160s are Speer Deep Curl (n.b. I use the Deep Curl data on Speer's site just to be on the safe side), Grand Slams, and Partitions. The 175s are Deep Curl and Grand Slam. All shoot right around an inch at 100 yards off the bench. They might do better, but the reticles on the scopes are German 4s, and both are thick enough to cover a one inch target dot at 100 yards. So I'm not getting "target precision" even if I was good enough. But it's good enough for my hunting purposes. Once the 175s are gone, I don't expect to replace them, and will probably stick with the 160s and 154s at about 2600. Again, most of my shooting is at game, so those bullets at those velocities should do anything I need them too. Our deer aren't very big, and even though I've taken some really big porkers, most of the ones I shoot are table size - way less than 100 pounds - all generally within 75 yards, and all either CNS shots or not shot at all.

Anyway, that's all reaching around my butt to scratch my elbow. Here's the data I think you're looking for.

Originally Posted by RevMike
I ran across this last night. I looks as if Ramshot is providing some updated/modern reloading data.

-------------------------

Since we do not have any specific lab tested data on this caliber, we can provide you with some guideline, based on calculations and information from other sources.

Caliber: 7x57 Mauser.
Barrel length: 24”
Pressure spec: <56565 Psi/3900 Bar (CIP) original


Powder: Ramshot – BIG GAME®. (1st Choice)

Bullet weight: 100-110 grains.
Start load: 47.7 grains (2975 - 3075 Fps)
Maximum load: 53.0 grains (3275 – 3375 Fps).

Bullet weight: 120 grains.
Start load: 45.0 grains (2700 - 2800 Fps)
Maximum load: 50.0 grains (3000 – 3100 Fps).

Bullet weight: 130 grains.
Start load: 43.7 grains (2575 - 2675 Fps)
Maximum load: 48.5 grains (2875 – 2975 Fps).

Bullet weight: 139/140 grains.
Start load: 42.0 grains (ca 2550 Fps)
Maximum load: 47.0 grains (ca 2900 Fps).

Bullet weight: 150-154 grains.
Start load: 40.8 grains (ca 2450 Fps)
Maximum load: 46.0 grains (ca 2800 Fps).

Bullet weight: 160 grains.
Start load: 40.5 grains (2350 – 2450 Fps)
Maximum load: 45.0 grains (2600 – 2700 Fps).

Bullet weight: 175 grains.
Start load: 39.6 grains (2300 – 2400 Fps)
Maximum load: 44.0 grains (2500 – 2600 Fps).


Powder: Ramshot – HUNTER®.

Bullet weight: 120 grains.
Start load: 48.6 grains (ca 2780 Fps).
Maximum load: 54.0 grains (ca 3140 Fps). LD ca 106%

Bullet weight: 140 grains.
Start load: 46.8 grains (ca 2600 Fps)
Maximum load: 52.0 grains (ca 2950 Fps). LD ca 102%

Bullet weight: 150-154 grains.
Start load: 43.7 grains (ca 2450 Fps)
Maximum load: 49.5 grains (ca 2750 Fps).

Bullet weight: 160 grains.
Start load: 43.7 grains (ca 2375 Fps)
Maximum load: 48.50 grains (ca 2675 Fps).

Bullet weight: 175 grains
Start load: 42.0 grains (ca 2300 Fps)
Maximum load: 47.0 grains (ca 2650 Fps).LD ca 99%


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#12260324 - 09/09/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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IMO, H4350 is where to start with the 7x57, and especially with the 140-150gr bullets. When it comes to temperature sensitivity and IMR 4350 (and actually most powders), I usually ignore that notion. As long as you develop a load that's safe in the summer, it will be fine in the winter. And, it will hunt just fine too. In my personal 30/06, I use IMR 4350 with 165s. I try to avoid shooting in the middle of the summer, but even early fall where I shoot it's often over 90 degrees in the morning. Last buck I shot with that load was on a 16 degree morning, and at 200 yards that bullet landed exactly where I intended. Your mileage may vary, but I doubt it. Getting back to the 7x57, if 4350 doesn't work in your rifle, W760 with something in the 150-160gr class of bullets works well. If you are a max load type of shooter, I FOR SURE would develop a load in the heat of the summer with that powder. It will be safe in the winter, but not always the other way around.

One more note about the 7x57 - don't ignore the "in-between" bullets. People tend to shoot 140gr or 160gr in 7mm, and sometimes 150gr. I had a finicky 7x57 that shot all those bullets decently, but dropping a 145gr Speer produced clover leafs. Same with the 154gr Hornday - not quite clover leafs, but more consistent that the 150 below and 160 above. Good luck!

#12260611 - 09/09/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: mathman]  
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Originally Posted by mathman
If temp sensitivity is an issue then skip the W760/H414.


I have to wonder about that. Most of my load work ups have temps running anywhere from 80* to over 100* I have a neat load for a 30-06 pushing the 165 gr. Accubond close to 2900 FPS at 100*F. I used that load on my last elk hunt in New Mexico and took a nice cow elk at a bit over 100 yards. The temp in the truck was 6* above zero. The day before when checking my sights and figuring I might have to adjust some, the point of impact was unchanged. Temp was 14*F above zero.
I've had similar results in the .270 Win. and .300 Win, Mag. using WMR powder. (Winchester Magnum Rifle) Same with Re15 in my .35 Whelen.
The only rifle than showed any change in POI was my .280 Rem. using WMR and IMR 7828SSC but even then the change was very small. So far anyway W760 and the others have worked nicely for me.
Paul B.

#12261302 - 09/09/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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Thanks RevMike.


Ed

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#12262918 - 09/10/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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Just my opinion but unless you hunt the world from northern Canada to the equator or are prone to firewalling every load to just short of locking the bolt up on your rifle the temp sensitive issues is overstated for the average hunter/shooter. I have reloaded for 45 years and used many of the now dreaded temp sensitive powders such as ww760, Blc2 . 4064, ,4350, 4831 and never really had any issues. Now I mostly hunt in Kentucky and the temps range from a high of around 90 in the summer to a low of just above freezing for in the fall but I nor the groundhogs and deer ever noticed the velocity fluctuation. Accuracy never suffered enough to notice. I'll admit I did do most of my load development in the summer not by plan but mostly because it was the off season. Use your 4350 and if it works for you well enuf said.

Last edited by bangeye; 09/11/17.
#12263036 - 09/10/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: bangeye]  
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Originally Posted by bangeye
Just my opinion but unless you hunt the world from northern Canada to the equator or are prone to firewalling every load to just short of locking the bolt up on your rifle the temp sensitive issues is overstated for the average hunter/shooter.


I agree 100% I've used double based powders like W760 & W748 for the last 25 years in all types of weather and never had a problem. In my opinion, the only time you'll ever have issues is if you left your ammo on the dashboard on a hot summers day. But nobody in their right mind does that anyway.

#12263114 - 09/10/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: bangeye]  
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Originally Posted by bangeye
the temps range from a high of around 90 in the summer to a low of just above freezing for in the fall but I nor the groundhogs and deer ever noticed.


But I hunt in CO where the temp can range from 90's to as low as minus 20-30 degrees. I have hunted in -10-15 degrees in fourth season. We also are more often presented with longer range shots than in KY where temp sensitivity can be an issue in changes in POI. I don't worry too much about temp sensitivity when hunting varmints such as coyotes since I do that mostly in the spring and summer as I hunt public land and don't want to interfere with big game hunters.


Ed

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#12263445 - 09/11/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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I'm currently not real concerned about it since my shots will be 150 yards or less for this season. But It's good information IMO to keep in mind.

#12263482 - 09/11/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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Temperature-sensitivity issues can and do occur, but not always, even when there's a considerable change in muzzle velocity. Some rifles are far more prone to point-of-impact changes in cold or warm weather with temp-sensitive powders, particularly those that tend to change POI noticeably with different powders charges when working up loads. I've seen POI changes of up to 3 inches at 100 yards when shooting the same load at 70 degrees Fahrenheit, and then again at zero F. That isn't common, but it can happen, and I've seen 2 inches quite a bit.

Of course, 2-3 inches at 100 won't make any difference on the ribcage of a deer or elk. But it becomes 4-6 inches at 200 and 6-9 inches at 300.

One of those pesky gun writers recently wrote an article on this what will be published this fall in some magazine. For those who don't read magazines, the basic point of the article (which is based on considerable shooting at different temperatures) is that, yes, most of the time temperature-sensitive powders don't make any difference, especially when shooting at big game (which is by definition big) at modest ranges. And yes, it can make a difference in some rifles, with some loads, in some conditions--but to assume that it never makes a difference might result in a surprise someday.

Most humans are quite fond of "examples of one," especially if the example agrees with their point of view. But examples of one, such as shooting an elk at 100 yards in cold weather, don't prove anything.


John

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#12263835 - 09/11/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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Thanks MD.


Ed

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#12263941 - 09/11/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: Mule Deer]  
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Thanks MD.

Really, the only reason I'm not concerned with it is because I'm shooting at 150 yards and under. Probably a lot under. I will be on the lookout for some of the powders that are resistant to the temp change. I tried this weekend and was unsuccessful...I figured there was a reason for that. smile

Thank you for the help on this subject. It's much appreciated.

#12264006 - 09/11/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: tzone]  
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I get good results with 42-44 gr IMR 4320 and a 140 gr Ballistic Silvertip, (41.5 gr behind a 150 gr Part. in the 7mm-08 is what I hunt cow elk with). A charge of 46 gr of IMR 4064 and 120 gr B-tip is my go to lope load. From a 21" barreled 98, they all shoot under an inch at 100 yd and have the same point of impact.


J & S Stuff & Smithing
FFL in Western CO
#12264196 - 09/11/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: Mule Deer]  
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John,
Those rifles that changed their point of impacto so much when shooting at different temperatures, would also change their precision, or does precision tend to stay the same?
Thank You,
Alvaro

#12265679 - 09/12/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: ColoWyoMan]  
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Originally Posted by ColoWyoMan
I get good results with 42-44 gr IMR 4320 and a 140 gr Ballistic Silvertip, (41.5 gr behind a 150 gr Part. in the 7mm-08 is what I hunt cow elk with). A charge of 46 gr of IMR 4064 and 120 gr B-tip is my go to lope load. From a 21" barreled 98, they all shoot under an inch at 100 yd and have the same point of impact.


Have you by chance checked the velocity on these loads? Reason I ask is because I recently got a 20" barrel carbine and the greatest loss from factory loads was only 42 fps less than from my 22" barrel Mauser but, one of my handloads was 130 fps slower. This 65 fps per inch of barrel puzzles me.

#12266186 - 09/12/17 Re: Powders for 7x57 Mauser [Re: Joe]  
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When I started working with 4320 in the 7x57, 45 gr would give me 2730 fps with a 120 gr Hornady SP. I left it at that as that's about as fast as I wanted to drive a "varmint" class bullet for antelope. The 46 gr 4064 load gives 2880 fps with the 120 gr Btips from my 21" tube and it is lights out on antelope out to 230 yds. These are 10% reduced Ken Waters' Pet Loads so I have a few grains to play with using 4320 & 4064 with the 120s but have never found the need to. In Pet Loads he lists 45 gr of 4320 as a Max load for a 140 gr Solid Base at a velocity of 2885 from a 22" barrel. I reduced that 10% and worked up to 44 gr, that's where I was comfortable with the brass and primer combo I was using and I suspect they might be running about 2800 but don't know for sure.


J & S Stuff & Smithing
FFL in Western CO
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