Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns 45 Super vs 460 Rowland

I already have a dedicated 1911 in 45 Super. Having zero experience with the 460 Rowland, I am interested in the technical reasoning behind the use of a compensator on the 460. I understand lock time discussion and such. But, why use a compensator on one and just a stronger recoil spring on the Super? Why is the comp not advocated for the Super too?

The Suoer operates at about 28,000 PSI and the Rowland at about 38,000 PSI. A stronger spring simply isn't enough to control the slide velocity in the Rowland, the brake is needed.

Good answer. When I put my Rowland together, I asked if the comp could be removed for disassemby, etc. They told to NOT to try, and that shooting the gun without the comp would pretty much bet it to death.

Mike

A stronger recoil spring does very little to slow down the slide in a 1911. That is the wrong way to go about it for a 45 Super. A flat bottom firing pin stop and heavier hammer spring are much more effective in taming a 1911 for heavy loads. A muzzle brake has a similar effect, by countering the recoil force that moves the slide.

This be true^^^^

You add a (Rowland, Wilson) good compensated barrel to the gun to reduced the pressure before barrel/slide release with these other tricks, then you have a very powerful, very controllable and pleasurable weapon. With out the gun destroying qualities of an extremely heavy recoil spring. It is the return of the slide that tears a 1911 up. Causes timing issues with the magazine to boot.

That's the part I did not consider or even know. You don't know what you don't know until you know.

The article I have was a write-up for RealGuns and was a step by step tutorial for converting to a 45 Super.
This called for:
Wolff Precision Load Rated Recoil Spring # 42128
For use in Colt Delta Elite, 10mm
Replaces original dual springs.
Load Rating 28 lbs - Extra Power
Firing Pin Spring included

Not being argumentative but riddle me this Batman, if this spring kit is meant for the 10mm as manufactured by Colt, how does the battered slide (or any other part) fit into this equation?

The intent here is to formulate the perfect 45 caliber hunting 1911. I am not unhappy with my 45 Super. I have not put more than 500 full power loads through it. It is accurate with its Sig barrel & i don't think 1285 fps with a 200 gr bullet is any slouch for game.

Any firearm that I hunt with I d not shoot recreationally so its cumulative round count will always remain low.

Bingo! I had forgotten this. If my memory would have perked up I would have answered most of my own questions.

Compensators are just too freaking loud and annoying to take into the field, which makes the .460 Rowland completely uninteresting to me. .45 Super is such a great cartridge when used right.

Had not considered the noise factor.

If you really want a hunting 45, go with a revolver.

Handguns are loud. That is the stupidest argument I have ever here. Mike will come along and say his .460 rattled the trees. It is no louder than a .357 Mag revolver. Shoot one before you show your inexperience with the .460

How many times do you have to shoot when killing something in the field?

The .460 1911 Weighs 39 oz. . Hold 9 rounds. Will fit in any open bottom holster made for the 1911. You can get off all 9 rounds accurately before you can shoot 3 out of a 629 Mountain. Same weight. Done it. Research it. Watch the films. Try it.

Get 9 rounds of 255gr at 4" .44 Magnum strength off in a very controlled manner. That is what an auto with one of the best designed comps in the market can do.

Makes for a very effective wilderness gun.

...and if in a pinch, it will shoot .45 ACP and Super being held by the extractor. Or spend less than two minutes to go back to your .45 ACP set up.

The reason Jonny Rowland designed it because the .45 Super was tearing guns up. Because of the recoils springs needed.

The comp lowers pressure down to 45 +P levels before barrel/slide disengagement. Add the SBFPS and 25# mainspring and you can use a 20# recoil spring. Ejection is 4 to 6 feet.

Plus the Clark Custom kit uses one of the best match barrels I have ever used.

I have several. This post is about 1911's.

So, if I go with a compensated 460 I will definitely have to get a new barrel so it can be threaded for the comp?

Nope, it is easy. Call these people.

https://clarkcustomguns.com/parts-category/1911/

They are particular on the guns used for the conversion.



and these.

https://www.460rowland.com/ Notice the recoil difference. Not much.

http://www.realguns.com/archives/106.htm/



Look at the videos. You tube it also.




Enjoy!

The Clark kit is around $300.00 .

I would add the EGW SBFPS

http://www.egwguns.com/firing-pin-stops/


I would suggest a 25# or 26# Wolf mainspring like yondering suggested.

The gun will still shoot standard .45 ACP ammo with these additional modifications.

So, less than $350.00 , you have two guns in one.

Starline Brass. Uses the same .45 ACP loading dies. Same magazines.

4" .44 mag power with a .451 bullet instead of a .429 bullet . Without the muzzle rise you get from the magnum.

You will not believe until you try it how well that compensator calms things down. Much milder than a standard Delta Elite 10 without a comp.



Oh, by the way, the stock Colt Delta Elite recoil spring is 23#, not 28#. Look at Wolf Springs website for verification of that fact.

Reloader, the .460 with comp is very loud, despite what Gibby and others want to believe - and I have shot one quite a bit. For hunting, for me, it was just too loud - but I am leaning more and more to suppressors on semi-autos. Other than that, I really liked the .460. Plenty of power, and easy "conversion" from .45ACP. I never tried shooting .45 ACP in mine, because I had other pistols for that, and it isn't a good practice, anyway. Even though I would not choose a .460 Rowland for my type of hunting, it is a heck of a lot of fun to shoot! Although I enjoy semi-autos and have several, I prefer revolvers for hunting, sold my Rowland and bought a .480 Ruger SRH, and like it more as a hunting gun.

Still, I'd like to try a Desert Eagle .44 mag!

Mike

Mike, I think you heard my story about the momma pig. After that incident, I started carrying the 10mm. Then got interested in the .460. I work all day on the ranch. Getting in an out of trucks, tractors, ATV's , Shovel $h!t and repair fences and a lot more. A 1911 on my side all the time. Never know it's there. Amazing firepower in a tight package. Never know when there is going to be more than one of those bastids.

I now carry it in a shoulder holster. Never gets in the way. Twenty five rounds of 255gr hardcast .460 Rowland rounds is formidable fire power to be on your person at all times.

I have two .460 Rowlands. A Colt and a Wilson Hunter. Since the Colt is a Gold Cup Trophy frame/slide, Clark kit, it out shoots the Wilson.

I have a ransom rest. The Colt is a true 1"-1 1/4" gun at 50 yards. All day long. The Clark barrels are that good.

It's a ranch gun. Not a city gun. But it does hide well in the shoulder holster. Even under a simple fleece jacket.


PS: There are some very high quality diaphragm ear plugs if your hunting and worrying about your ears. Most are in the industrial supply market.

Seems like there's a hunting vs wilderness defense divergence. One can't argue the better accuracy with a revolver, nor can the easier repeatability of an auto be ignored.

I was interested to read recently thatBill Wilson does not care for the .460 Rowland. Not sure why?

I don't carry my 1911's "in the field" in anything but a Tanker Man's shoulder holster. Was doing some post flood cleanut today, used the .45 on a snake.


Mike

They seem to like it when I placed my order. They would not use a case hardened frame for the .460. Their compensator is smaller. The Rowland/Clark comp works better. Their loaded ammo is about 80 to 85% of maximum. Which is not bad really. The Hunter model is available in 10mm also.

It is a very nice gun. It should be for that price.

Thanks for all the info, gentlemen. I've been wondering about the minutia of the Super vs. the Rowland too, and have been thinking of getting into a Super. A 45 cal 250 @ 1000 seems pretty useful for woods use.

Gibby,

What shoulder holster are You using?

And specifically what ear plugs are You referring to?

Thanks,

Jerry


Also,

I don't know how Johnny Rowland set his 45 Supers up or how many rounds until He beat them to death, but I have probably a thousand plus through mine to no ill effect. Either have Jack Huntington set it up to increase the time it is locked up or do as Yondering suggests and use a flat bottomed firing pin stop and a 25# mainspring to get there. I don't doubt that only using a very heavy recoil spring would batter them badly.

You can get the 45 close to that with a good powder choice and a FFPS, #18 recoil spring, without going over +p pressure in standard brass. Even at 850fps at standard pressure range the 250 gr has good performance and excellent penetration. With a wide flat profile bullet, I don't know that more velocity adds much impact on the target. Either way it's a lot of punch from a standard ACP.

Yep even in standard mixed 45 ACP brass I've been able to push a 230gr WFN to 1050-1100 fps. That's in a G21 OEM barrel too with it's very generous feed ramp; a better supported barrel can handle a bit more.

I do believe more velocity than 850 fps does add more effect on target though; everything I've seen in testing and shooting game indicates more velocity does hit harder with everything except a round nose bullet. There's more to terminal performance than just shoving the bullet through meat.

Galco Miami Classic holster. I like the four point pivot in the back. It moves with you. Good for all 1911's and Browning HI Power fits good in it also. Including the magazines. Good for field and dress up.

The earplugs. I just looked. The round plastic container's printing has worn off, so I do not know what brand. I do know I bought them from WW Grainger. When I get time, I will try to identify.

The 1911 is built to take a recoil slam of the slide and frame. Take one apart and look. The return trip of the slide is only stopped by the slide release and the small barrel foot. In addition, the frame around the hole for the slide release is relatively weak (thin). JB did not design the 1911 to be abused by a overly strong recoil spring.

That area was the problem with the 1980's version of Colt's first Delta Elite model. Using just a 23# recoil spring.

There are tricks you can do to handle the recoil impulse of the slide, but not much you can do to handle the increased slide return force using very heavy recoil spring.

As far as Glocks, I have no clue.

.....and don't care.

I run the Wilson flat wire 20# recoil spring in my 45 Supers. The 45 Super with a 230 grain JHP at 1100+ FPS is a hard hitting combo. The 185 at 1300+ is also a very effective load. And the 255 grain hard cast at 1070 FPS is also a very useful combo. The added speed definitely increases effectiveness.

The 45 is about 100 FPS faster than a good +P with equal weight bullets. If one wants more then the Rowland offers more velocity.

I have the Lee RNFP mold that casts 263 with my preferred alloy. I shoot them out of an 1860 Henry replica at about 1000. I'd love to do the same out of an auto. It was this bullet, at that speed, that got me digging into options to step up the 45 ACP. I have a few thousand policed brass, but have never owned an arm for them.

That's not a good bullet for pushing fast in the 45 Auto; it takes up too much case capacity and will require seriously high pressure to push to 1000 fps. You'd be a lot better off with a different bullet; if you want to stick with Lee molds the 230 TC is your best bet for a heavy bullet that can be pushed hard. The small weight difference doesn't matter that much downrange, but the velocity difference at safe pressures will be significant. You can push that 230 TC to 1000 fps from a 1911 safely with the right powder choice; Blue Dot is a good one.

Hornady 230gr XTP and 230gr (225) are about perfect balance for the .460 also. Although the XTP turns into a flying ashtray at .460 velocities. Still good enough for deer. They need to make a magnum style in .451 instead of .452.

Just shoot the .452" version then. If you're concerned about the extra .001" (no big deal in my experience) you can size them down with very little fuss but I wouldn't bother.

I've really wanted to convert my Les Baer 45 ACP to Super, but can't find any flies on the +P loads I already shoot in it, don't think the Super would give me anything more for the uses I have for that pistol.

185 gr tac-xp's at 1175
230 gr gold dots at 950
230 gr Nosler fmj-fp's at 1000

They all shoot and function so well I'm afraid to jack with changing anything.

an accurate to 25 yards 230 gold dot at 950 would do anything I need done here in the southeast.

I've got the 240gr. Hornady Magnums in .452. Have not worked up a load yet for the .460 using them. I did make up a dummy round. My lee factory crimp die did not like them one bit. The .452 cast no problem as expected but the .452 jacketed was a tough stroke. The mag style are a very thick jacketed design. A little shorter bullet in the case might work better. Maybe the .460 Starline brass is thicker closer to the mouth than their ACP brass. I just don't know. My OAL for XTP's is pretty much settled on. Due to magazine dimensions. Even .003 longer will jam them up.

Another thing is, we are not talking about using them at around 20k psi like the ACP. In the 30k range with no data available. In a 1911.

I am a conservative handloader.

Yup, same here, a 185 tac-xp at 1175 was fine buck deer medicine one afternoon too, little buck was hung up behind me, leaned around the tree with the 1911 and drilled him on the point of the left shoulder, he trotted 20 yards, stopped, then fell over.

That is good information. While the 10 mm is a great round the 45 is sure versatile

With AA#5 and a few others the 10mm can be loaded down for fun and plinking. Down way below .40 S&W levels accurately. Nobody ever thinks of the 10 that way. They want to hot rod it. But , if you like your weapon in the 10mm, why not have more fun with it.

You bet JP, I have no doubt the 10mm with 200 gr XTP's would have did same.

Yeah, the 10mm is like the 270 Winchester, it gets way too much press.

...and they used to call the 10mm a cult cartridge back in the day. I never thought it was. The shooting public is uninformed for the most part.

You make an excellent point. To understand your point, one need only rack their slide the hammer cocked, versus hammer down to feel substantially more resistance. Having to cock a hammer takes a lot of steam out of the 1911 slide. Regardless of how strong a recoil spring is rated, unless it's installed with significant compression already applied, static closing force is pretty low.
Since a Glock lacks a hammer, recoiling parts mass and spring pressure, plus a high-quality comp is all one has to delay slide opening.

Yes, spot on.
What you point out about Glocks (or most other striker fired pistols) is why the 460 conversions pretty much require a brake to delay unlocking enough; a recoil spring alone isn't enough and you can't make the slide heavy enough even with a 6" solid long slide.