Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors What was the thinking behind the .22 HP?

Apparently since the .22 Savage HP was loaded with a 71 grain bullet it was intended for big game. This of course was in the days of iron sights and .30-.35 rifles shooting medium velocity round nose bullets. Introducing a .22 centerfire for big game for deer at that time seems odd to me. And I don't think they sold too many. Correct me wherever I'm wrong because it's a cartridge I just have never "gotten".

It was definitely intended for anything from varmint to big game, and in fact there were people who used it for tiger hunting.

The shooting world had just gone through the smokeless revolution a couple decades earlier. They'd gone from large bore to 30 cal, over a LOT of resistance from folks who wouldn't believe that a small bore 30 caliber could kill big game. High velocity obviously proved them wrong. So with the 22HP they were pushing to go even lower. It was a bit of an overreach, especially as far as tigers... yipes!

Though the 22 High Power as it was factory loaded is still a legal cartridge in Nebraska for deer hunting, which requires a minimum amount of energy at 100 yards. I'd say it's almost an ideal cartridge for coyote hunting.

Im a big fan of the 22HP, a tac driver, light to carry,just a fun gun iv taken 3 deer with mine, all between 20 and 60yrds, with a stith set up and Alaskan 2.5 scope. if you take your time and pick your shots.

Why did they? Why not? I suspect old Charlie Newton bent someone's ear until they gave in and chambered a few.

What's wrong with killing stuff with a .22 centerfire? The .22 HP is no better or worse than the .223, and a lot of folks are going around killing all manner of deer sized game with that one. May or may not have been as valid a point 100 years ago due to advances in bullet technology, but still, HP's were always loaded with tough bullets. It was always considered to be a medium big game cartridge not a varmint round. Stick a deer in the guts with a .30-06 and it'll run a helluva ways before going to ground. Stick a deer in the guts with a .22HP and the same thing happens. Stick that same deer in the heart or spinal column and you'll get the same results whether it be with an '06 or a HP.

Advantages of the .22HP: Low recoil, accurate, deadly, found in delightfully handy woods rifles.
Disadvantages:


Bless those Savage thinkers for they gave us loonies a bunch of neat cartridges.

So did anyone else bring out a comparable cartridge at that time? I don't know myself but it would be an indicator of public demand for a small diameter high power hunting round.

I've seen as many as ten of them on GB at the same time, and all the adds said, super rare. There are 2 now. I think there are plenty around if you want one. Don't plan on letting mine go, and would like to pick up a couple more, Joe.

Not that I know of, but there was a small hot bed of wildcatters experimenting with .22's back then. The .32-40 was a popular base case for a lot of those guys like Niedner, Mann, etc. Nothing went mainstream for another 15-20 years. Note too, all .22 experimentation in the 'teens was with .228 bullets. That was the standard for .22's until the Golden Age of .22CF's that the Hornet kicked off. The .22WCF, .22-15-60, etc. set the trend with what we think of as oversize .22 bullets starting in the late 19th century.

Savage pretty much created a demand for small caliber high velocity factory offerings all on their own. Winchester and Remington came close with their .25-35's and .25 Remingtons, but they didn't carry the panache of the Savage offerings. I mean seriously, which would you rather smack a tiger between the eyes with- a .25 Remington or a Savage .22HP?!

Just a clarification, I never said there was anything wrong with big game hunting with a .22 centerfire. I'm supposed to be doing it myself but haven't listened to my Doc. But I am wondering what market they were attempting to reach in 1912?

To me the 22-HP has always been the least interesting of Savage's four proprietary cartridges as I figured it was pretty much rendered redundant if not obsolete upon introduction of the 250-3000. But now this thread has piqued my interest. Is there a good source for .228 diameter bullets? I know Ken Waters had some success with .224 bullets.

But to answer the OPs question I think we need to look as the 22-HP through the lens of the past and not the present where we have an overabundance of cartridges and components to choose from. Given that we can find rounds today that were specifically designed to shoot everything from gophers to elephants (something that really didn't exist in the past), I'd say that Savages intended market was simply the guy who wanted the latest and greatest super duper hunting round and that they really didn't care if you shot wild woodland critters, raging tigers or the neighbors overly noisy dog with it. Not that I've ever shot dogs but there have been times....

The "Big Game" market.
Like the others have stated, Charles Newton was creating leading edge cartridges at the time, Savage Arms had a (marketing) need and so did the market.
This was a high velocity high shock cartridge.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think the 22HP was something like ~2700 ft./sec. and ~1500ft./lbs.
Was there anything comparable at the time?
Obviously things have changed since 1912, but,...

Nothing else like it at the time, in a lever gun. The market wasn't flooded and overlapped into redundancy over 100 years ago.

No reliable source for .228 bullets. Buffalo Arms carries them, and there's a guy in California who makes them (and sells some to Buffalo). RWS H-Mantels show up on the American market from time to time. Best bet is to haunt the internet for obsolete/discontinued Hornadys, Speers, and Sisks- beat the bushes and you never know what will turn up. They aren't as rare as some would have you believe. I figure I now have enough .228 jacketed bullets to last me most of the rest of my life- all garnered from want ads on the internet and by keeping my eyes (and wallet) open.

If you're serious about shooting a .22HP a lot, then now might be the time to invest in a mold and some basic equipment and cast your own. I shoot my HP's a lot with cast bullets, for less than some people pay for .22LR's.

As for .224's, knock yourself out if you want to. I care not a whit for them in the HP. Others do and that's ok.

I would sell my left foot if Barnes would make their TSX in .228 in a 50 or 55 grain weight- they would be the t*ts for deer at 3000+fps, as they are in the .223.

Yes what Gary says! I too have enough Jacketed bullets to last me, I hope but always on the look out for more! I also bought a mold for lead bullets, not started to learn casting yet tho! Also 25-35 brass is the way to go to reload the 22HP. I also reload most of my 22hp with the Ideal 310 tong tools! its a fun Hobby!

Remember that in 1912 there was no internet for feed back. A hyped published story or ad on a product would sell many before the feed back from use would effect sales.

There were a lot of HP's sold from 1912 to around 1920. The 250-3000 slowed it down after it came out in 1915 but the rifle also cost about 20% more than the Model H.

Why did the 250-3000 cost more?

I have found only one .224 bullet that shoots MOA in a HP. It's the 70 gr Speer semipoint. It is also rugged enough for deer sized game given very disciplined shooting.

What? No internet back then? How the hell did anyone survive?

If you look at 100 year old advertising perhaps you'll observe that over-hyping of products was the norm. I think ad copy writers had a universal philosophy that dictated outlandish barely believable claims for their products in the hope that such would generate more sales among the generally poorly informed public. I doubt Savage truly expected hunters to go up against big dangerous animals with their .22 HP's, but it sure made for exciting ad copy and attracted a lot more dollars from rubes who believed it and guys who wanted to believe it.

The HP probably also appealed to the rapid fire crowd. Light recoil aided the emptying of the magazine to mow 'em down. "What the hay, the thing holds five shots and I'm gonna use 'em."

Because the M250-3000 was a fancier rifle than the M1899H.

I would guess it cost more because the Model H was a plane Jane straight grip, no checking. The Model 250-3000 Rifle was a checkered pistol grip. Maybe some other stuff, Ill check my books and see if I can learn something, Joe.

The 250-3000 was checkered, pistol grip, takedown. Everything but engraving at a time that the standard Savage 1899 was a straight stock, uncheckered, solid frame.

Same with the 99G up until 1932 when the 99R came out. Only other with more features was the 99K.

Between 1900 and 1917 there were 5 sub-.308" bore cartridges introduced in the U.S. market, the 22 HP Savage, 22 Newton, 25 Remington, 250-3000 Savage, and 256 Newton.

Between 1919 and 1941 there were 6 sub-.308" bore cartridges introduced in the U.S. market, the 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, 219 Zipper, 220 Swift, 257 Roberts, and 270 Winchester.

Of those 11 cartridges, 4 are still reasonably common; the 22 Hornet, 220 Swift, 250-3000 Savage, and 257 Roberts. The only one that achieved great success was the 270 Winchester.

Wasen't the 5.6X52R made in europe for double guns with a rifle barrel before Savage came out with the 22HP which is the same cartridge ?

I wonder if anybody ever killed an elephant with a 22 High Power ?


Mike

They are one and the same, developed by Charles Newton. The 5.6X52R is just the metric designation of the same cartridge, Joe.

You missed the .25-20 WCF (I miss it too!).

.22HP started out in the good ol' US of A. The 5.6x52R was/is used in combination guns and kiplaufs (single shot break open stalking rifles). In all my time searching for things HP, I never stumbled onto a double rifle and believe me I've looked. I would love to see such an animal.

I'm still kicking myself in the butt for ignoring a BRNO kiplauf in 5.6x52R. Imagine that- a modern strong rifle with a .228 bore and fast twist to handle the long heavy bullets.

Add the .236 Lee Navy to the list. Commercially loaded ammo was available in the early 1900's.

I wonder if Newton/Savage was eying the success of the small-ish bored European military cartridges of the time- to whit, the various 6.5mm's.

Can you buy brass for the 22 HP anymore? (Yes, I'm a reloader)
I have an opportunity to buy an 1899 22HP made in 1913 but its 50% condition overall. SN 145720

Sellier & Bellott sells loaded ammo for it but I don't know about just brass

None of the big guys here in America makes brass for it. RWS makes it but I have found only a few boxes of it over the years- excellent stuff if you find any. Norma and S&B sell tons of ammo, but no brass that I'm aware of. (As for shooting that stuff to get the brass, beware that it's loaded hot and that accounts for two strikes against its potential case life.) Sometimes old U.S. brass turns up- Rem-UMC, Western, Winchester, etc. and it's generally good stuff, but take care to anneal the neck/shoulders of it to prevent splitting, it's old and a bit brittle, and hold your loads down to a sane level. I use 60-70 year old brass all the time, but I don't hotrod my .22HP's either. Ditto old stocks of Canadian made Dominion stuff.

Truth be told, your best bet is to just use .25-35 brass (available once again, but for how long is anybody's guess). One pass into the .22HP die and your all set. .30-30 is another option and it yields excellent brass but you'll have to go through some gymnastics to get it down to .22HP. Because .30-30 brass is a viable source there will never be an excuse not to load for the HP (bullet availability not withstanding- get a mold and never worry about bullets ever again).

gnoahhh, great info. I assume trimming would be in order after passing 25-35 brass through a .22HP die?
Moosemike, thanks for that info.

Nope, no trimming necessary except to square the mouths if needed.

Thank you sir.

Take a close look at the bore before you buy, as most 22 HPs were made/sold/used prior to the widespread up of non-corrosive primers and that resulted in a lot of 22 HPs with rough/pitted bores.

I have long thought that the 22 HP is an exercise in frustration/disappointment for most people who take it on, so jump in with your eyes wide open.

Not an exercise in frustration per se, but definitely not something I was interested in continuing. After all Savages come in 22-250 so what's the point? I can hit sheit at 500 yards with one a them.

I don't feel like walking 500 yards to see where I hit, so what's the point?

You just watch for the dust from their flopping around.

keep looking you never know when 22HP brass will show up, bought lots MISSED MORE than i bought.

norm

The range my buddy shoots at allows people to scrounge the brass buckets. He goes up a week or so before deer season and picks 30-30 out for me. He picked 300 cases and got tired. Then I gave a friend 15-20 pounds of mono type to cast bullets, and he gave me another 300 cases. So, I use 30-30. I think we did have to trim them a bit. Mine is showing some head space issues, the primers are popping a little. Since this one has an original Malcolm scope on it , shooting it a lot is not high on my list of things to do. I'd like to pick up another one for a shooter. I do plan on taking a deer with the Malcolm this year, as a start on the Savage slam, Joe.

Grafs has some in stock made by Norma; pricey though. https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/647?

Wow, that is a little pricey. I bought a bunch of Norma brass in 303 when I got my 1926 F. I don't remember it being that much. Grafs also have 25-35 brass for less than $30 for 50 cases, Joe.

A little off topic, and I think I asked Gary this question, but I forgot the answer. The friend that gave me the bag of 30-30 brass, for the bucket of lead, had about 300 cases in it. I was sorting it by make. A bunch of it was head stamped 30 WCF. When did they stop head stamping brass with 30 WCF and change to 30-30? Joe.