Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Has Leupold fixed tracking & zero retention?

Had my first two Leupold failures in 30 years this last weekend. Both 2.5-8's of one age or another. One refused to track so I could not sight the rifle in. The other lost zero with a focus change, then started scattering shots. I'm disgusted at the moment.

You're projecting.

There's a group of people here, many of whom posted in this thread, that want an optic for precision shooting at distances beyond what you describe. It doesn't matter if it's informal target shooting, hunting, competition, training, or "work" related.

Let's take a moment to clear the air here.

My intent for this thread was to discuss whether or not Leupold has addressed issues with tracking and zero retention. This isn't about making Leupold owners feeling inadequate about their scope for shooting deer at 100 yards.

Let's go back to 2009, to set the stage. Below is a post by Frank Galli at Snipershide. He was a Marine Scout Sniper, and currently an instructor, along with running his site.

Link to quote below

"we see the military side of things and our last class of 20 people had 3 Leupold's go down within the first 3 days of training. The military stuff fares just as bad if not worse due to numbers.

At our last Thunder Ranch class, a kid from a NG unit had a brand new M110 with a new Leupold on it, first day, it broke he had to drive 1.5 hours each way to get a new rifle from the armory.

We see on average between 2 and 5 Leupold's break per week with military classes and pretty close to that with civilian classes when they use them which is becoming less and less."

OK, that is obvious, but it seems as if SWFA also has their share of downsides i.e. the other thread. However, no need to drag it around any longer, unless others wish to do so.

I'm more familiar with the shot gunning side where certain shooters are sponsored by a particular company. Does SWFA do the same for any specific shooter or group of shooters? I'm not familiar with all of your abilities, occupations or affiliations. So are any on the SWFA payroll either directly or via equipment perks?

Battue,

We are not done, and changing the topic isn't going to help.


More from Frank Galli, from 2009:


Link to quote below


"George, maybe I need to start a thread with a running count, I bet Leupold would love that.

Breakages,

Most common turrets going down, as well they spin freely. The soldier with the M110, it stopped turning at 12MOA with their package and system. Rifle was brand new. Zero stops on the M3 knobs break. as well turrets will back out of their sockets, silver starts to show.

Also we see they won't hold zero, ask Jack, he arrived at Rifles Only with a brand new one and every day was frustrated because the rifle would be significantly off zero with no known cause. He sent it back to Leupold and they put it on their machine and found no errors in the scope, then they took it too their range and what do you know, it wouldn't work. Its starts small and grows, shifting zero.

Canted reticles, some that get worse and start to tip over.

Mainly they lock up and stop adjusting properly. You'll suddenly only get about 1/4 of the use out of them. We see on the line same rifle, same scope, Army purchased system where slowly guys start to run out of elevation, some get to 1000 yards, some top out at 700, some stop turning all together. There is no consistency especially after heavy use.

I think that about sums it up, if I run across anything else I will start a tally."

More from the same thread, in 2009:


Link to quote below, by Frank Galli:


"They are identical... as there is no distinction between the two in terms of Leupold's product.

And frankly, we see less and less Leupold's on the civilian side, and yet the failures are still higher than any other maker. We see more S&B, NF, and USO than we do Leupold. On the Military side we see more Leupold but as I said, the failure rate is about 2 to 5 failures per class of 20. You're welcome to do the math.

Now to compare the same, in some military classes we have an even split of NF and Leupold, the NF's far outshine the Leupold and don't break. In fact more and more of the SOCOM stuff is being replaced with NF over the Leupold, especially in the Mk series.

Civilians have a choice, military people don't. And more and more people are choosing not to go with Leupold for exactly these reasons.

The most recent civilian issue I can recall was Jack (above) one of the only Leupold's in the class and it hurt his ability to operate because it gave him trouble from day one. A brand new scope. I think he was one of only two Leupolds in the class so 50% failure rate, 9 other students, 8 with different scopes had no issue.

Finally I would put the number of precision rifle classes, student's, and systems we see against anyone in the country in terms of shear numbers. I would bet the only ones who could compete with how many people we see in the precision rifle field is only comparable to the military and their sniper classes. So I see a lot of them, week in and out.

Debating that your 1 or 2 10 year old Leupold scope has been "working" great for you holds only very little weight in the big picture, especially when you look at percentages of failures across a broad spectrum.

I have 12 S&B scopes, I have had 1 issue and I don't exactly treat that well. So bad in fact that most people cringe at my treatment of them. I paid for all of them and was willing to do so for 1 reason.. I have had only had 1 failure, it was in 2004. Have I see others get broken, sure, but so few and far between it makes it a safe bet. The same goes for my NF, "I" haven't hurt one yet out of the 6 or 8 I own. Apples and Oranges, I don't think so, cause at the end of the day, whether I use it or a grunt in Iraq, its all part of the same thing."

Quotes above came from an interesting thread started by Terry Cross. You may find it interesting.


Now, jump forward from 2009 to 2011. Did Leupold make any improvements? Doesn't seem like it, according to Frank Galli.


Link to quote below:

"Funny, you see the truth, you point out the problems, which happen far too often, you're a hater of the company...

When class after class the number one scope to fail is Leupold, --then people claim because so many of them are out there, well these are their "tactical" scopes and not the hunting line. When we have a competition with 92 shooters and the one brand with multiple scope failures on the line is Leupold, to the point where people can no longer continue to compete, that is not hate, but a problem within the product line."

Ok, now fast forward to 2014.


From Rob Sheppard, former Marine Scout/Sniper, and now lead instructor and owner of Precision Applications:


Link to quote below


"In the Sniper/Precision Courses I teach, I see more Lepold Mark4's fail than all other brands put together. Failure to hold zero, failure to return to zero, adjustments that aren't anywhere close to what they're supposed to, lenses de-laminating and more. I wouldn't own one any longer than it took me to flip it."


Link to quote below


"I'm not buying it. I see a lot of Leupold scopes, and I see a lot of failures. It is unacceptable.

I've got a buddy who is on his second Mk8, first one wouldn't hold or return to zero. Jury's out on the second one; he said he's having similar problems with it, but I've yet to shoot it for myself.

The stats given are on the complete production run of Leupold scopes; I'm specifically talking about their Mk4 scopes and only those. Leupold claims these are manufactured on a separate line, with tighter tolerances, increased QC and better materials. If this is true, why the high failure rate? This is not just my observations, but also those of many Instructors and Snipers that I trust highly.

I've got one of the old, original VariX-III scopes, a 2.5-8x32mm. I bought it used in 1995, no idea how old it was when I got it, but it was scratched and well worn. It's held zero for the past 17 years and provided yeoman since day one."

We're getting closer to the point...


Fast forward to 2016. From Rob Sheppard, Precision Applications:


Link to post below


"I've seen a few problems with the Mk6 optics during the courses I run for military, LE and civilians. Not nearly as many issues I have seen over the years with the Mk4 line, but enough to have me concerned.

On a personal note, I do like the fact that the turrets lock, but I greatly dislike the actual feel of the turrets.........but I don't like the feel of the S&B turrets, either.

I own 2 Nightforce optics that you may be interested in: the ATACR F1 5-25x56mm and the ATACR F1 4-16x42mm. Both are illuminated, first focal plane, ZeroStop elevation turret, capped windage (you can remove the cap and they supply a beauty ring to protect the threads).

Most of the Mk6 optics I have seen are good to go with no issues at all. My only concern is that at the price point for that optic, I am seeing too many issues for me to be comfortable with it."

I'm hoping that the above quotes cleared the air and set the stage. Leupold has developed a reputation for having issues with zero retention, tracking, and customer service... among, let's call them "precision shooters". They might be nothing more than paper punchers, avid steel shooters, competitors, hunters, etc. Or, they might be marksmen, or professional instructors. Does it matter why they shoot? At any rate, this isn't your typical 100 yard deer hunting crowd.

Frankly, I didn't want to drag Leupold into the mud by going into the bloody details, but the point wasn't getting across to some people. It's already been stated by numerous members here at the 'Fire, but that wasn't enough.


My question still stands, for 2017, "Has Leupold fixed tracking & zero retention?"


I have a feeling that the answer is "No", but would like to hear someone give better news, based on actual experience given the above.

The fact that you want to change the direction of my participation in the thread, by throwing in the cut and paste quotes of your group of "precision shooters", and at the same time ignoring the equipment and accomplishments of others who shoot at 1000, would cause one to question your motives.

However, since I don't consider myself on the level of the group you hang with-that find Leupold lacking-I will have to quote myself.



If you and your quote buddies feel Leopold lacks in your particular precision game, who am I to say different? Nor do I think it takes an inordinate amount of skill to rise to that level. With dedication, practice, and commitment, most with ordinary abilities can shoot as well. Another subject no doubt, but I've seen some-not all, to be clear-with the T-shirt shoot at the range. And when I look at the targets of some, I wonder just who taught them what? And yes they are shooting their decked out M variants, and admittedly a Leupold on top is rare. Vortex seems to be the scope of choice.They roll out the pad and then proceed to get down and shoot patterns-big patterns-at 2 and 3. Even at 100 some times. Maybe they stole the shirt. And the bugout bag? Some of it is really funny. Ahh, but perhaps they are still on the upswing of the learning curve.


However, as mentioned another subject and I still call BS on number 1.



Sponsership dollars, how does it flow? It's a business and business finds money....

You sound like the customer services standard reply of the times. " Yes, I understand you are unhappy. And yes, you have every right to feel as you do."

You just showed your hand with the above. You know what your answer was from the beginning, which is proven by your various posts on the thread. You knew where you wanted it to go from the beginning. Classic bait and switch. And if nothing else, I'll give you credit for being good at it.

battue,here is the sad reality. Leupold commands a premium price for a product that has a consistent problem. I shoot my deer at less than 150 yards every year, but even I who hunts in the woods at close range animals has seen two of them fail for just no reason, no twisting, no dialing, just shooting over a non magnum cartridge. So no the Leupold product is not adequate for me a hunter, nor has it been adequate for many here that don't target shoot but only hunt. They have a consistent problem of not holding zero that develops on its own without any abuse or extreme use. It would be different if we were talking about a blister pack optic for $69 hanging in Walmart, no one would give a crap, but a $1000 or more is corporate theft. How does a $400 SWFA scope outperform a $1000 Leupold? Easy it holds zero and you can count on it.

If they would put a damn #4 in the SFP in their 3-9 for about the same money they would put Leupold out of business.

Your reality isn't mine or everyone else's either. It's like a bullet thread. Someone had a failure with a specific offering and forever posts they will never use them again. Forever and repeatedly. Another will use nothing else.

And yes, if they offered a reticle close to what I like, I would give them a try.

I appreciate where your coming from, just too many others have the same reality as I do. I still have my last two Leupolds mounted one on a 22 LR and it seems to be holding zero but it went back 2 times before they fixed it, and the other a VX6 1-6 that broke when I was zeroing it to a 6.8spc an almost brand new scope. I sent it back and they said nothing was wrong with it, but the group sizes and EL/Win went back to normal for the gun. So far it is holding zero. Sad because you want to like the scope but unfortunately I just cannot trust them any longer.

SWFA does not sponsor anyone that I am aware of. I've bought every one, unless it was issued.

The tinfoil hat brigade will always walk around muttering the Leupold mantra.....even if the damn thing fell apart right in front of them. Its a damn shame. I tipped my toe back in the LEup waters on a vx3i this year. Bad right out of the box. I'd love to try a vx5hd, but I've lost all faith. If I do it's going on a little 22ppc and form brass until it pukes with full video. No dialing no bullshit and see what happens.

Thanks.