24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
-->
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 18,243
Campfire Ranger
OP Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 18,243
Travis.....I'd never call you a critical a-hole.....a regular a-hole.....sure but never a critical a-hole.

Kidding aside......your point is well taken because when I think about it my shooting immediately improved when I started using the glasses so going to a lower power may not be such a good idea after all.
I'll stick with my regular readers for now and try to concentrate more on the front sight.
Also, I'm currently shooting at a measured seven yards. I'll try cutting that in half and work back from there.
Thanks for the input.


Getting back the the 22/45's trigger.....I found a Voulkerson kit but holy chit.....it costs half as much as the whole gun.
I also found a good video about polishing some of the parts.
I think I'll try that first...maybe sometime this winter when I need some indoor entertainment.

Last edited by FieldGrade; 09/25/17.
GB1

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,293
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,293
Travis,

I always enjoy your serious explanations because they make so much sense. Now if you could help me with these shaky old hands. I've tried tying them to the bumper of my F250 but that ends up making my lug nuts coming lose.

W. Bill


I'd rather die in a BAD gunfight than a GOOD nursing home.
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 591
L
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
L
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 591
IHMSA matches are excellent practice.


NRA Benefactor Life Member
NAHC Life Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,677
R
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
R
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,677
tag


The deer hunter does not notice the mountains

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" - Isoroku Yamamoto

There sure are a lot of America haters that want to live here...



Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Y
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Y
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Originally Posted by deflave


This in bold makes a little flag go up IME. But don't think I'm being a critical ass hole, I just want to make sure we're on the same page.

Trigger is important but first and foremost is fully wrapping your head around the front sight. That target should be indistinguishable when you switch focus to the front sight. I try and tell people they shouldn't just bring the front sight into focus. The focus should be so intense that they're picking out the machine marks or small pieces of dust on the front sight. Even a man size target should blur to a point that you don't even really know it is there.

This is often evidenced with rifles also. A guy will shoot so-so at the 300, and go 10 for 10 at the 500 or 600. Why? Because he's still trying to maintain some level of half ass focus of the target at the closer distances, so his shooting suffers. But when he moves back 2 or 300 yds, he achieves perfection. This is because he gives up trying to maintain any focus on the target at all. It is simply too far for his eyes to achieve it. So his brain subconsciously tells him "Fugk it" and all his focus goes to the front sight. It is also very common for shooters to remove their script contacts or glasses entirely. Because it forces them to focus on the front sight and nothing else. Their vision simply won't allow them to do anything but.

I can always tell if people are truly focusing on the front sight if I take them to the three yard line with no bullseye, just a blank sheet and have them do nothing but slow fire with 100% focus on the front sight and nothing else. The ones that are fully grasping the concept will leave one small hole in the paper with five shots through it. The ones that aren't will be a 50 cent piece or bigger grouping.

When teaching fundamentals I am a believer that the trigger control will naturally fall into place once a person fully grasps the front sight focus because our brain doesn't allow that trigger finger to interrupt what we are so desperately trying to achieve and maintain before the shot breaks. So when going back to basics I try and tell people FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT and let everything else fall into place.

BUT, the biggest problem a coach has is convincing people they aren't focusing on the front sight. I'd say 95% of pistoleros just nod their head and say "yeah, i'm on the front sight" but they really aren't. They just think they are. And once that thing in their brain clicks and they start making those one caliber holes with five shots at the 3yd line, they take off from there.



Travis


I'm sure glad nobody told me that stuff when I was learning to shoot. Seriously. I learned to shoot well focusing on the target, and am a better shooter for it. Some guys do improve by focusing on the front sight, but it's by no means the universal best method despite some big name schools promoting it. Focus on trigger control is still far more important.

IC B2

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Ok.




Dave


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 18,243
Campfire Ranger
OP Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 18,243
Travis......I tried your 3yrd adventure today. What an eye opener.
I started out in the fifty cent piece bracket with thirty rounds (three ten shot groups) but by the third group I was down to a little over a quarter..
Still a long ways from a one holer but I'm getting there.

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,661
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,661
Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by deflave


This in bold makes a little flag go up IME. But don't think I'm being a critical ass hole, I just want to make sure we're on the same page.

Trigger is important but first and foremost is fully wrapping your head around the front sight. That target should be indistinguishable when you switch focus to the front sight. I try and tell people they shouldn't just bring the front sight into focus. The focus should be so intense that they're picking out the machine marks or small pieces of dust on the front sight. Even a man size target should blur to a point that you don't even really know it is there.

This is often evidenced with rifles also. A guy will shoot so-so at the 300, and go 10 for 10 at the 500 or 600. Why? Because he's still trying to maintain some level of half ass focus of the target at the closer distances, so his shooting suffers. But when he moves back 2 or 300 yds, he achieves perfection. This is because he gives up trying to maintain any focus on the target at all. It is simply too far for his eyes to achieve it. So his brain subconsciously tells him "Fugk it" and all his focus goes to the front sight. It is also very common for shooters to remove their script contacts or glasses entirely. Because it forces them to focus on the front sight and nothing else. Their vision simply won't allow them to do anything but.

I can always tell if people are truly focusing on the front sight if I take them to the three yard line with no bullseye, just a blank sheet and have them do nothing but slow fire with 100% focus on the front sight and nothing else. The ones that are fully grasping the concept will leave one small hole in the paper with five shots through it. The ones that aren't will be a 50 cent piece or bigger grouping.

When teaching fundamentals I am a believer that the trigger control will naturally fall into place once a person fully grasps the front sight focus because our brain doesn't allow that trigger finger to interrupt what we are so desperately trying to achieve and maintain before the shot breaks. So when going back to basics I try and tell people FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT and let everything else fall into place.

BUT, the biggest problem a coach has is convincing people they aren't focusing on the front sight. I'd say 95% of pistoleros just nod their head and say "yeah, i'm on the front sight" but they really aren't. They just think they are. And once that thing in their brain clicks and they start making those one caliber holes with five shots at the 3yd line, they take off from there.



Travis


I'm sure glad nobody told me that stuff when I was learning to shoot. Seriously. I learned to shoot well focusing on the target, and am a better shooter for it. Some guys do improve by focusing on the front sight, but it's by no means the universal best method despite some big name schools promoting it. Focus on trigger control is still far more important.

You must have some very unique eyes...

Because front sight focus to absolutely ensure perfect sight alignment is of paramount importance...it ALL starts there. If you don't have that, you can at best only hope to settle for a much less than perfect shot. Next step is maintaining that perfect alignment through the trigger pull. EVERYTHING comes secondary to those two things.

Sorry, but Travis is dead right on this one.

If you're getting really good results by focusing on the target, my bet is your eyes have a wider focus range than most people...therefore, your advice really doesn't apply to mere mortals.

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Y
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Y
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Not really; my vision used to be great but is pretty average now. It's more a matter of what people have been taught to think and how to think it. The sights don't have to be in focus.

In my experience most people who think sight alignment is the cause of their accuracy issues are wrong; it's usually trigger control, which is much more difficult to master. The sights don't have to be in focus to have them aligned correctly, or even to verify they are aligned; just aligning the fuzzy dots while focusing on the target is adequate to put shots touching at 10+ yards; from the sounds of it I doubt the OP is at that point. Perfect sight alignment is worthless when poor trigger control takes the gun off target at the moment of firing.

The way I do it is more natural, like pointing your finger. You don't have to focus on your finger to point it at something, right? Same for the pistol. Visually focus on the target while mentally focusing on the trigger, grip, and body structure in that order.

Focusing on the front sight does generally result in more focus overall, including on trigger control, so it seems like it works to a lot of folks. If that's what helps you, great, but chances are just focusing on that trigger will get you the same results or better. The common element here is focus, instead of just banging away hoping to improve.

Last edited by Yondering; 09/25/17.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 26,097
D
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
D
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 26,097
I agree with Travis. Front sight concentration is right at the top of the list, followed very closely by trigger control. I have heard of some top competitors changing the sights on their handgun right before a match on occasion to force them to concentrate on the front sight. But if you pull the sight off target with your trigger pull you are still going to miss.

I'm no great shot myself but I know I do better when I can concentrate on the front sight.


Those who are always shooting off at the mouth usually aren't shooting straight.



Build a man a fire and he’ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life.

www.wvcdl.org
IC B3

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,955
H
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
H
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,955
The target doesnt move, the sights do.....they move more (unecessary) if you have a [bleep] trigger/control.

Aim small, hit small.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Originally Posted by Yondering
Not really; my vision used to be great but is pretty average now. It's more a matter of what people have been taught to think and how to think it. The sights don't have to be in focus.

In my experience most people who think sight alignment is the cause of their accuracy issues are wrong; it's usually trigger control, which is much more difficult to master. The sights don't have to be in focus to have them aligned correctly, or even to verify they are aligned; just aligning the fuzzy dots while focusing on the target is adequate to put shots touching at 10+ yards; from the sounds of it I doubt the OP is at that point. Perfect sight alignment is worthless when poor trigger control takes the gun off target at the moment of firing.

The way I do it is more natural, like pointing your finger. You don't have to focus on your finger to point it at something, right? Same for the pistol. Visually focus on the target while mentally focusing on the trigger, grip, and body structure in that order.

Focusing on the front sight does generally result in more focus overall, including on trigger control, so it seems like it works to a lot of folks. If that's what helps you, great, but chances are just focusing on that trigger will get you the same results or better. The common element here is focus, instead of just banging away hoping to improve.


So...

What's your advice exactly?




Dave


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Originally Posted by longbarrel
IHMSA matches are excellent practice.


Meh.

That schit is easy. You just look at the target and maintain trigger control.

Ask anyone...





Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,955
H
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
H
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,955
You can have awesome "trigger control", but if the cap is busted and the sights aint aligned.

You can also have a single action with a glass sear and a two decade locktime, which makes for jacked up sights..

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,461
D
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
D
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,461
I'm going to jump in with the trigger control group, because I know for a fact it's pretty easy to jerk a shot 5-6 inches (God knows I've done it enough) out of a group at 7 yards or so and you'd be hard pressed to do that with great trigger control and the front sight lined up anywhere in the back notch.

I think the good thing for me about concentrating on sight alignment really hard is it allows my subconscious to handle the trigger pull.

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Y
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Y
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Originally Posted by dodgefan
I'm going to jump in with the trigger control group, because I know for a fact it's pretty easy to jerk a shot 5-6 inches (God knows I've done it enough) out of a group at 7 yards or so and you'd be hard pressed to do that with great trigger control and the front sight lined up anywhere in the back notch.

I think the good thing for me about concentrating on sight alignment really hard is it allows my subconscious to handle the trigger pull.


Yes! that's exactly what I've been saying, but maybe you said it a little better.

My advice to the OP is to work on trigger control and grip. (Especially since he's acknowledged that trigger control is a problem.) Aiming the sights is relatively easy in comparison, and even poor sight alignment with good trigger control results in better shooting than perfect sights and poor trigger control.

Besides lots of dry fire, I recommend some live fire just shooting into a berm without aiming, just focus on the trigger. That's partly to prevent developing a flinch, as well as to help train your hand and arm muscles to do the right things.

Also, I wouldn't do a lot of dry fire on that .22 rimfire. Pick up a cheap Glock; if you develop good trigger control with that you'll do great with most everything else,.

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,487
E
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
E
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,487
While a good trigger is 90% (or more) of a guns accuracy the control of that is not the criteria. It is the front sites. (sights) The official publication of IPSC used to be called "Front Sight"

The correct term is flash sight picture., which means eye coming to focus on the front sight, at time of shot release, but the "focus" of the shooter is "NULL" which means the shooter can repeat the shot, move on or etc. from instinct and training, not committed to any previous...



SLOW IS FAST

its really hard to learn to "control" a bad trigger job. (actually a waist of time)

Don't take my word for it , ask the ISPC masters, jump over to Brian Enos and throw it up on the board. Or better yet read his book on it.

Save you the time, With multiple target engagement, and movement, the only way you know you missed is the last sight picture you had of the possible miss.

or you could ask a bullseye shooting what his "wobble area" does.

or a long range pistol shooter about pushing the shot through the target" from a prone Creedmore.

The lock time on all handguns suk big time, and cannot be controlled after release.


Study the modified Weaver and understand why it controls recoil and site alignment through the forearms, without disturbing the upper torso.

Then start to bring your elbows out and up until they are as wide as your shoulders, or more. This will push our left thumb down the frame and allow the left to control accuracy, so the right hand can be used for fire control. This will allow you to turret the gun without disturbing the sight picture.


Most people don't have what it takes to get old
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Originally Posted by dodgefan
I'm going to jump in with the trigger control group, because I know for a fact it's pretty easy to jerk a shot 5-6 inches (God knows I've done it enough) out of a group at 7 yards or so and you'd be hard pressed to do that with great trigger control and the front sight lined up anywhere in the back notch.

I think the good thing for me about concentrating on sight alignment really hard is it allows my subconscious to handle the trigger pull.


Ummm, there are no "groups" here. Nobody is stating trigger control goes out the window.




Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Originally Posted by flave
When teaching fundamentals I am a believer that the trigger control will naturally fall into place once a person fully grasps the front sight focus because our brain doesn't allow that trigger finger to interrupt what we are so desperately trying to achieve and maintain before the shot breaks.


Originally Posted by KnowItAll
I'm sure glad nobody told me that stuff when I was learning to shoot.


Originally Posted by dodgefan
I think the good thing for me about concentrating on sight alignment really hard is it allows my subconscious to handle the trigger pull.


Originally Posted by KnowItAll
Yes! that's exactly what I've been saying, but maybe you said it a little better.


Let's try and get that head removed from that ass before posting.

Thanks,
Dave


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Y
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Y
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Do you need to fill out a hurt feelings report? smile

The part we disagree on is that trigger control does not "fall into place" for everyone when focusing on the front sight; along with the claims above that front sight focus is first and foremost above trigger control. I'd rather teach someone to consciously work on trigger control, than to tell them "front sight, front sight, front sight" and hope their subconscious takes care of the trigger.

I'm well aware of the Front Sight training, and that there's a whole generation of shooters who've had that drilled into them. I just don't agree with it.

Last edited by Yondering; 09/26/17.
Page 2 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
AX24

565 members (160user, 10Glocks, 12344mag, 1936M71, 10gaugemag, 163bc, 56 invisible), 2,472 guests, and 1,263 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,191,804
Posts18,477,500
Members73,944
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 


Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.113s Queries: 14 (0.003s) Memory: 0.9142 MB (Peak: 1.0770 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-04-29 19:18:10 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS