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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,549
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,549 |
Anytime you plant any kind of bullet in the vitals of an animal at 2x the speed of sound or greater... it's gonna die. Doesn't matter if it's a .223 or a .458.
That being said I have a whelen project in the works right now =]
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,575
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,575 |
That's what I grew up thinking, but the advent of this "Primitive Weapons" season here in LA has us shooting single shot Whelens, .444s, and .35Rem rifles at several animals each fall and winter. I'm changing that notion to "Tissue Damage Kills". This was another animal that fell to a 358win-level handload in my 35 Whelen Apex (225NAB at 2,430fps). It quartered through him and he made it about 5 yards before piling up. Looking at the 20 or so animals we've shot on our place in recent years with that Whelen load or polymer-tipped FTX Hornady loads in 444 or 35Rem, all have been handled just as well as a 7mm RM, .270Win, 30-06, or the like. Granted, we limit shots to 250yds or so with the single shots, but even lung shots result in lots of blood and fairly short death runs. So, in light of what I've seen, my perspective has changed somewhat. There really is more than one way to skin a cat, and 200-265gr at 2,200-2,500 get things done just as well as anything when the distances are not too far and your bullet choice allows for good expansion. Some guys I know who mostly hunt shorter-range spots have taken to hunting their Primitive Weapons rifles all season long. As an aside, that hog slid out of my truck as I bounced through some pretty good mud holes last night coming out of the woods. After dragging him up a wooden ATV ramp once already, I said screw it and pulled him out with a ratchet strap through the hocks and looped over my trailer ball. Coyotes don't care about a few scuffs and some mud on their supper. Is this an inside joke, or does LA consider those calibers primitive weapons?
I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world itself is vexing enough. -- Col. Stonehill
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
They do consider them 'primitive'. Mississippi also. I've seen more 35 Whelen ammo on the shelves in MS than I ever saw in AK.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 23,570 Likes: 23
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 23,570 Likes: 23 |
I've been hunting slow this year, and have been pleasantly surprised. Not so premium bullets perform nicely launched a bit slower, so it seems. I've been shooting the old 140 interlock out of my Creed, and it's been great for bucks. Need to kill a few more these next few weeks to really get a good look at it, but I've been surprised at good exits and the lack of blowing shoulders to smithereens like I did with more speed.
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,624
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,624 |
On private land in Mississippi you can use any legal firearm, Ronnie Primitive Weapons Weapons legal for use during the Primitive Weapons season are all archery equipment and primitive firearms. "Primitive firearms," for the purpose of hunting deer, are defined as single or double-barreled muzzleloading rifles of at least .38 caliber; OR single shot, breech loading, metallic cartridge rifles (.35 caliber or larger) and replicas, reproductions, or reproductions of those type rifles with an exposed hammer; OR single or double-barreled muzzleloading shotguns, with single ball or slug. All muzzleloading primitive firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with percussion caps, #209 shotgun primers, or flintlock ignition. "Blackpowder substitute" is defined as a substance designed, manufactured, and specifically intended to be used as a propellant in muzzleloading or other black powder firearms, excluding modern smokeless powder. Metallic cartridges may be loaded with either black powder or modern smokeless powder (cartridges purchased at sporting goods stores). Telescopic sights are allowed while hunting with any primitive firearm during the primitive weapon seasons. During any open season on deer with primitive weapons after November 30, a person may use any legal weapon of choice on private lands only, if the person is the title owner of the land, the lessee of the hunting rights on the land, a member of a hunting club leasing the hunting rights on the land, or a guest of a person specified above. If the person is required to have a hunting license, the person must have a primitive weapon license, Sportsman's License, or a Lifetime Sportsman's License.
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 15,908 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 15,908 Likes: 2 |
Is this an inside joke, or does LA consider those calibers primitive weapons? Copied from La. Hunting Regulation handbook LEGAL GEAR Legal Gear for Primitive Firearms Season includes: Rifles or pistols, .44 caliber minimum, or shotguns 10 gauge or smaller, all of which must load exclusively from the muzzle, use black powder or approved substitute only, take ball, shot, or bullet projectile only, including saboted bul lets. All of the above may be fitted with magnified scopes. Single shot, breech loading rifles or sin gle shot, breech loading pistols, .35 cali ber or larger, having an exposed ham mer that use metallic cartridges loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder. All of the above may be fitted with magnified scopes. Single shot, breech loading shotguns, 10 gauge or smaller, having an exposed hammer, loaded with buckshot or slug.
Old Turd- Deplorable- Unrepentant Murderer- Domestic Violent Extremist
Just "Campfire Riffraff and Trash"
This will be my last post! Flave 1/3/21
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 15,908 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 15,908 Likes: 2 |
That's a good one, JPro.
I posted the Primitive hunting specs above and the 30-30 is not considered a primitive weapon. A friend of mine had a 30-30 single shot and had it bored to a .375 Win., so he could 'primitive weapon' hunt with it.
Old Turd- Deplorable- Unrepentant Murderer- Domestic Violent Extremist
Just "Campfire Riffraff and Trash"
This will be my last post! Flave 1/3/21
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 17,254 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 17,254 Likes: 1 |
I think it's really just a way to put extra fees on a license and generate more revenue. It made a little more sense back when we could shoot single shots of .375 or greater. A 444 or 45-70 isn't that much different in performance from in-line muzzleloaders. But in reality, a full-house Whelen is a 400yd rifle with the right bullets.
Now with even more aplomb
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 5,531 Likes: 9
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 5,531 Likes: 9 |
Speed flattens trajectory. But bullets don't kill. Speed doesn't kill. Guns don't kill. Shell casings and powder charges don't kill. Bullet HOLES kill. This is the premise of the OPs post and he is 100% correct.
Many US Service men walk around alive today with metal in their bodies. I know from personal experience! Many of those metal pieces were put there at velocities well over that of rifle bullets, but if they hit someplace non-vital, they can be survived.
Bullet holes that penetrate vital places are what kills!
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,259 Likes: 35
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,259 Likes: 35 |
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 284
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 284 |
The .35 Whalen is fairly fast. I love my .38-55 WIN. It does a nice job. But it drop them as quick as my 257 WBY. Speed does some amazing things.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,575
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,575 |
So my single shot 7mm 08, break action, is primitive? Somebody has too many deer.
I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world itself is vexing enough. -- Col. Stonehill
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 Likes: 1 |
7mm-08 is smaller than .35 Caliber.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,463
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,463 |
Penetration kills...with speed it kills quicker.
Dan
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 655
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 655 |
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 14,019 Likes: 7
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 14,019 Likes: 7 |
My 45-70 has the trajectory of a brick thrown off a cliff. But I guarantee it will kill anything I point it at.
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,184 Likes: 4
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,184 Likes: 4 |
JPro, When Mississippi originally went to the primitive weapon rules everybody down there that new me was calling because I had an in at H&R and could help them get a 45-70 or .444. Gun shops down there was putting buyers on a waiting list for the next one they got in. I had both and actually preferred the .444.
Just before I retired and moved back down there, Mississippi changed the rules to allow the Encore and 35 cal. rifles. I got 35 Whelen barrels for mine and eventually gave one to my brother. He liked it so much he's one of those guys you refer to. He hasn't used another gun for almost eight years. Last year he finally gave it a break and used I .308 Win. I bought him.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 24,767 Likes: 30
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 24,767 Likes: 30 |
Bought an H&R 444marlinn off a buddy a few years ago , really like it for some reason . Short stubby w/a 1.5x6-36 Bushnell 4200 firefly reticle scope , it shot 1'' groups at 50 yards with some 225gr, FTX starting loads . It's going to be my close range treestand/blind/night hunting gun , going to try the shade tree ceramic coat paint on it . Got some 300gr. pistol bullets sitting on the shelf , should really knock the stuffing out of a big hog .
As I mature [get older] these type guns appeal to me more and more b/c they appear to work just fine .
JPro you're being way too nice to those coyotes .. Nice hog !
PRESIDENT TRUMP 2024/2028 !!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Bristoe The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,761 Likes: 7
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,761 Likes: 7 |
Rifles are like cars. When you're young, you want fast and sporty. As you get older, you want comfort and reliability.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 14,019 Likes: 7
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 14,019 Likes: 7 |
Bought an H&R 444marlinn off a buddy a few years ago , really like it for some reason . Short stubby w/a 1.5x6-36 Bushnell 4200 firefly reticle scope , it shot 1'' groups at 50 yards with some 225gr, FTX starting loads . It's going to be my close range treestand/blind/night hunting gun , going to try the shade tree ceramic coat paint on it . Got some 300gr. pistol bullets sitting on the shelf , should really knock the stuffing out of a big hog .
As I mature [get older] these type guns appeal to me more and more b/c they appear to work just fine .
JPro you're being way too nice to those coyotes .. Nice hog ! I want to get an H&R .444
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