Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Another Barnes BangFlop

It has been the experience of those I hunt with that Barnes bullets provide DRT results more often than not. My mulie buck last week was another DRT result.

.300WM, 175g LRX, 245 yards. 4x4 if you count the tine that was broken off. On the ground before I recovered from the recoil, never took a step.



Not a monster, but it should be good eating. Daughter #2 informed me a few days back that they had finished the last of the 2016 buck and the 2015 elk. My grandkids are growing up hardly knowing what beef is.

Nice job. Great caliber.. I am not hot on Barnes bullets,but if you like them fine... I think the deer and antelope my grand kids are eating was mostly taken with good old Sierra bullets.. Result is the same.. Clean kills with good meat for the family..

Yep, the barnes TTSX's have worked very well for my kids and I, calibers from .243 to 300 H&H. Congrats on your mulie!

I had a great hunt in Eastern Canada this last week. Used the 130 TSX in my 308 win. Harvested a mature whitetail buck about 175 pounds at close range. The deer was relaxed shot just behind both shoulders and low and was also DRT. I will be shooting a few more with this combo. Early results are quite impressive.

Good luck and shoot straight

Bob

Nice buck, appreciate the info. Thanks for sharing.

Good job on the mule deer! I am a HUGE Barnes fan...alot has been written here and elsewhere about Barnes performance. Our own JB ( a good friend and honest gun writer) maintains the critters he has seen shot with them ( which are many...many) go just a bit farther before expiring than they do with a conventional cup-n-core bullet. This has not been my personal experience...I have a sample of a bit over 60 critters taken with the Barnes and find them expiring right on schedule, if not a bit quicker. That said, JB has seen a LOT more than 60 so as with everything else he writes...I tend to believe him...

All tolled, since I do a lot of 'stunt shooting' with small calibers I find the Barnes TSX and TTSX to be the game changer. If you are going to shoot any critter most folks consider too big or too tough for your caliber...use a Barnes!

That is the same cartridge and bullet Daughter #1 uses for everything - antelope to elk. Or antelope so far, as that is all she has harvested. 3045fps with CFE223.


The entrance hole in the hide was hard to find, but here is the entrance hole in the rib cage:


Exit side:



Lots of destruction between those two holes.

+1,000 on this. I was trying to explain this to someone this weekend, while trying to convince them that a 243 was plenty big for whitetails but they simply needed a different bullet to achieve the exit holes they desired. They were killing deer using 95 gr SST, but weren't happy with the lack of exit holes and blood trails. "Barnes and other premium bullets are MAJOR game changers for small calibers" was my exact quote.


My experience has been that I have less bang-flops with TTSX than c&c bullets but I get very consistent, short blood trails with lung shots. I also have now started shooting almost exclusively through the shoulders whenever possible, which does lead to bang flops. I have probably 35 kills with a 120 ttsx in 7mm08 and 5 kills between my 9 yr old and myself with 80 gr ttsx and GMX in .243.

Nice buck, that combination should be deadly.

Pretty buck there, and I have gotten quite a few bangflops with mono-bullets when they catch shoulders.

Bang flop on a Scimitar Horned Oryx.."tough" game.....223AI 62 Gr Barnes TSX...

Congrats on a nice deer, the “bang-flop” with the wrong bullet, and owning-up to your mistake . Also,contrary to “popular opinion”....the will also kill “small” big game with big calibers! Though not considered possible by some memtb

What's that I see? Bloodshot around a Barnes made hole? I didn't think that happened.

To the OP: where did the bullet hit the deer?

Congrats on the harvest. I love Barnes Bullets and use them pretty exclusively in my big game rifles.

My experience is about the same as yours Mathman. The destruction in the chest cavity was considerable the heart was basically butterflied as well as damage to the lungs lots of congealed matter. There was not a great deal of damage to the meat was far less than partitions or SGK.

Good luck with the rest of the season all.

Bob

When the buck was standing, straight up the leg, about 1/3 the way down from the top. If you look closely at the photo in my original post, you can see some roughed up fur where my orange sweatshirt disappears behind the buck. The entry was directly below that. If you look at the shadow behind the front leg, measure halfway up to the visible top of the deer, then go straight left to a point below where my sweatshirt touches the deer. That will get you pretty close.

Barnes makes great bullets, accurate in every rifle I’ve tried them in.

I load my 130 TTSX with h4895 at less than min load with devistating results. Reduced recoil loads.

Another Barnes bang flop on a tough Texas Oryx...55 grain Barnes TTSX out of a .223AI

But you can tell by the shot placement why the bang flop...

I've seen the pic a few times Tom, and I just now noticed the Texas sticker.

Scott..I put that on just to bait Stick...I have since removed it

Gospel, by two of the most respected members of the Fire. And they reflect my observations as well.

Well, yeah. Things go flop when you play mafia assassin. Were you in Dallas, Nov '63??

Burned my tag on this one last week to remove it from the gene pool..6.5 127gr LRX from my Swede broke both shoulders at 310 yds and keep on truckin. They Do work !

My buddy always teases me and calls them "armor piercing" but they have worked well for me every time. Probably a hundred or so critters.

Which one reflects your observations? They have differing conclusions

My own experience of about 135 Barnes kills leads me to the same conclusion as Ingwe.

A. That I like what Ingwe says
B. That from what I have observed, I defer to John's experience.

Hard?

Get that man a Snickers...

Some comments, since my observations have been brought up:

I've been using Barnes X-Bullets pretty much since they appeared, including the original version, the blue-coated XLC, the TSX, and Tipped TSX. In fact I used Original X's exclusively in a 6.5x55, and frequently in other rifles, before the TSX appeared.

Have witnessed many of my hunting companions use them as well. Probably my wife has been the most frequently observed. Among other animals, she provided Connie Brooks with the first "field report" on an elk killed with the then brand-new TSX in 2003 (a 140 .270) but she's also used TSX's and TTSX's on a bunch of other animals. This includes her latest elk, taken a few weeks ago with a 130 TTSX from a .308 Winchester. But the other observations include a cull hunt in Africa with a dozen other hunters in 2007 where almost 200 animals were taken, at least a third with the TSX.

Have also used and witnessed other monolithics being used considerably. Probably most were Nosler E-Tips, since they appeared the same year as the TTSX, but also have experience with Hornady GMX's from the 70-grain .224 (which I used this fall on a pronghorn, taken at 350 yards) to 250-grain 9.3's. So far I've been unable to tell any difference in field results with any of the three different bullets, though shooting them into media can usually find some nit-picky variations in penetration and expansion.

During that period I've paced or measured how far animals went after pure rib shots, not involving the spine or shoulders, with a bunch of different bullets. I did find that monolithics result in a little longer run-before-drop than lead-cored bullets, especially lead-cores that expand violently. Maybe three years ago I averaged the results of hundreds of animals, finding the shortest runs were from Berger Hunting VLD's, averaging 18 yards, the longest from monolithics, around 50 yards. Other bullets ended up somewhere between those extremes. But those are averages, and individual animals varied, of course, though I also found more rib-shot bang-flops with Bergers than any other bullets.

It's always interesting to read reports of "bang-flops," since so many hunters fail to differentiate between pure rib shots and those that hit the central nervous system, and/or break shoulders. In my experience, the easiest way to guarantee a bang-flop is to shoot the shoulders about a third of the way down from the top, since this usually also hits the spine, or comes very close. This is indeed a good way to drop 'em with TSX's or other monolithics, but doesn't require a monolithic. I've done the same thing, and seen it done, with many other bullets, including some cup-and-cores that many hunters wouldn't recommend for the purpose. A couple years ago in Texas, as a matter of fact, I bang-flopped several culled whitetail does with the "blue box" 100-grain Federal .243 Winchester load, using the high-shoulder/spine shot--and all the bullets even exited.

The virtue of this shot with monolithics is it doesn't destroy as much meat as with lead-cored bullets, and while that's true on average I've seen plenty of meat damage with monos with shoulder shots. Eileen's elk this fall was a big cow quartering toward her at about 250 yards. She put the 130 TTSX in the near shoulder, the logical shot placement, and the cow staggered maybe 25 yards and keeled over. The bullet had broken the base of the scapula just above the big shoulder joint, and when butchering Eileen weighed the meat she considered not salvageable, which came to 5 pounds, and she isn't super-picky about what gets ground into burger.. Another bullet might have ruined twice as much, or more, but no, we could not "eat up to the hole."

There is a difference between bang-flops that hit bone or spine, and those that hit only ribs. My notes on hundreds of animals indicate rib shots result in far few bang-flops with monolithics than lead-cored bullets, and the animals go farther as well. The difference isn't vast, but it's there.

My experience with the original X bullets (blue XLC version) was they they were very unreliable when it came to expansion. I was using my 7mm RM exclusively with them, 3020fps M.V.

A broadside shot on a coyote at 100 yards gave straight-down-and-out results but no visible entrance or exit wound. Another coyote had a softball-sized, "U" shaped hole in its back - obviously from a spine hit. A buck antelope took two broadside at about 300 yards. I lay down abut kept its head up as if sunning itself. After I circled around to the back side for a closer shot, it struggled to its feet and took a couple steps. A third 160g XLC hit the heart and finally put it out of its misery.

At that point I quit using the XLCs and never used the TSX on game. TTSX (and now LRX) have been excellent performers in every rifle in which they've been tried and on every animal on which they've been used. Still running over 50% bang-flops with them. Longest run has been around 25-35 yards and that was unusually long.

I can understand why people hesitate to use them but a bullet that performs the way they do, in the limited collective experience of my hunting group, and can run the length of a mule deer with an exit, is a bullet I'll keep using.

John,

Thank you! I don't have the discipline nor opportunity for such extensive documented research and I strongly appreciate yours. I've used several bullets and read about bullets for years and yet learned a new tidbit from this latest post of yours. Good stuff!

Watch "Wild Boar Vs 300 WSM 150 gr Barnes TTSX" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/1M09YPWCt_c

Watch "140gr TTSX bullet performance issues on Fallow Doe hit twice by a 7mm-08" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/CzUt_Mpwjxo

Hello from New Zealand

I have had experience with two Red deer shot with 140 TSXs out of a 7mm08. I don't know the specifics of the load as I was guiding a client and it was his rifle.

1. A red hind, 49 yards side on. I was watching through 10x25 Leica's at the time and the animal was feeding. The shot was through the crease half way up the body, I observed no impact at all and thought it was a clean miss. As the animal ran to cover it did miss a half step and that was all.
In such cases I generally sit down and eat my apple, which we did even though the client was all for the chase.
As we entered the bush I naturally started tracking down hill, the client went up. The long and short of it is the animal was hit exactly where the client aimed and had gone up a 45 degree slope for 80 yards before expiring. No bone was hit.

2. A large red stag. 180ish yards on dusk. The animal did not die well, but it did die so was it a failure? At the time I was very interested in trying them myself but based only on a sample of two to be fair I don't think they are for me.

Maybe the speed was to low or the weight too high, I don't know but the 140 Sierra HPGK's I have used in my 7mm08 and 270 have never acted like the above and as stated it is only a sample of two.

Like an old mate used to say "lead is dead".

Have a good day.

Troy_Tempest,

The TSX is not a TTSX. 140 from a 7-08 is not following directions. Should have been 120 or lighter.

I had an interesting experience yesterday with a 185gr .338 TTSX (2,750-2,800fps) and a feral sow that was maybe 180lbs. Double-lunged her at 160yds in an attempt to save the shoulders and it knocked her flat, which is unusual on these animals. I thought I'd maybe pulled into the shoulders or spine, but it was actually a rear lung hit. She got her feet under her after 3-4 seconds and managed to make it a few yards to the brush. Ran about 25 yards afterwards. Lungs were pretty much soup, but I was most impressed with the "whomp-factor" when no big bones were hit. I'm going to try to shoot some more stuff with this load and see what's what.

Thanks for that post John. Saved me that typing.I always get a lot of entertainment of guys posting the bang flops with Barnes,especially when they post photo of a spine shot. Cripes, don' t they think about it. My favorite is of course the double lung, missing the shoulder.Any animal hit dead center thru both the lungs,not too far forward and not too far back is going to run until all the blood stops flowing.They sure are not going to run several hundred yards.Any animal that takes out the spine is going flop. Any animal that has both shoulder broke is going to keel over,but can certainly take another round too end it's suffering.

Any bullet that does it's job to get there will kill and elk and it doesn't have to have a blue tip.

Heck,I could really start an argument by posting a photo of 7x8 bull I took with a180gr Game King that was bang flop.Base of the neck thru the spine. Everyone knows that Game Kings come apart and can't do the job.

After watching that video I've come to a couple of conclusions.

One is that the bullet was fully expanded to the base of the cavity. That would be pretty remarkable given the extremely shallow penetration.

The other is that the doe was probably not the first animal or thing hit by the bullet. My guess is that it passed completely through another animal before striking the doe in the neck. That would account for a loss of velocity consistent with the shallow penetration as well as the full expansion.

[Edited to add...]
After watching the video one more time on a larger screen, I could see the second hit was to the right ham. I also read the text below the video,which explained things. This bullet in question "passed through the entire length of the Doe, further damaging the lungs and was recovered from her neck". So, instead of an entrance wound as I previously thought, the neck wound was an exit wound with the bullet base leading the way.

Thought it was pretty strange that a TTSX would have such shallow penetration as my hunting group has never recovered one. Full-length penetration, that I would expect.

[End edit]

If i wasnt concerned about lead in my meat I would never run a mono metal bullet.

Troy_Tempest,

The TSX is not a TTSX. 140 from a 7-08 is not following directions. Should have been 120 or lighter.

I'm sorry but the Barnes web site list's 120 to 160 TSX loads specific to the 7mm08 and suitable for up to elk. I would have thought a medium red hind and a good solid red stag would have fitted in there somewhere. Maybe you should check before posting.

Have a nice day.

I shot a caribou with a 375 RUM using 270gr TSX shot was well over 300 yds shot clean through caribou went few feet fell over dead.. to this day felt a little undergunned for the hunt..

Last May I had a double lung, no shoulder, bang/flop with .270 Win firing TTSX 110. It weighed 236 pounds hanging.

And I had a bang-flop from a lung shot on a pronghorn buck with a 100-grain XLC from a .257 Roberts Ackley Improved. Which like any other "example of one" proves nothing.

Ive had 25 caliber 100gr TSX's pole axe a Pronghorn at over 400 yards with no bone hit, and another the same day with like placement run over 100 yards.

Been running x bullets since the x bullet was here. Much like others went thru the trends along with the pretty blue bullets. I use tsx in my 416
Exclusively. Nosler sent me
A pile of free partitions but my ultra light 416’s recoils flattened all the tips in my magazine and broke lead off. So I stuck with my x bullets. But the recoil will still “crimp” my tips and result is a basic solid bullet when shot. I have recovered them. And with the tips crimping my third shot is always high right, the bullet in the bottom of the mag ends up seated deeper after the recoil of the previous two shots.

As for the effectiveness of the Barnes X bullets? I’ve never seen a reason not to continue to shoot them. But have seen reasons not to shoot bergers/cor-lokts/game kings/etc.

I generally shoot lungs and avoid bone to save meat. I always shoot Monos anymore. I have no preference based on performance on game with different Monos. If I want a deer down where it stands I shoot CNS to get what I want. I have observed high shoulder hits that took both scapula and did not drop the deer with Barnes. Perhaps the most impressive was a fawn I shot with a muzzle loader. Through both scapula, shredded the top half of the heart, the biggest part of the lungs left was only a fist size chunk. When the bullet hit there was a loud, distinct crack of bone. The deer swayed back some and then turned and ran off flagging like nothing had touched it. I could have stuck a shovel handle all the way through that one and carried it out. I have no idea how it managed to run at all.

Dropping them where they stand without hitting shoulders or CNS depends on things that are not easily explainable like the deer above being able to run at all. What bullet you used for that is of little consequence, I just expect they will run some and trying to predict how much is a waste of time. I will say though that there is a difference between a cranium shot and one just below that takes out the brain stem. I have seen enough brain stem shots that there is a pattern. Usually the head drops just after the shot with the body following. After 3-5 minutes it is common to see legs move a little as the muscles run out of oxygen. The lashing around that sometimes accompanies cranium shots does not seem to occur. Like the inability to predict run distance, blood trails are similarly unpredictable in my experience with both lead core and Monos. That I attribute to the fact that I generally shoot to drop blood pressure to zero instantly making it much more difficult to get blood out. A decent bullet will shred enough tissue to plug holes pretty well.

Not a big surprise to me. After wildly different experiences - from great to horrible - with my 7mm RM and 160g X (XLC) bullets on coyotes to antelope, I never considered the TSX to be enough different to actually use them on game. Photos of nearly pristine TSX bullets recovered from animals didn't improve my opinion of the TSX design.

The tipped MRX had a wider cavity and a tip to help initiate expansion. That was enough of a difference that I tried them. Had consistently good results and switched to the similar TTSX when they became available. My hunting group is small (five and less) but now everyone else is using TTSX exclusively and most have done so for several years. No bad experiences with the MRX, TTSX or LRX for anyone in the group.

[Edited to correct the following]
This year we had three (75%) bang-flops on antelope and deer with TTSX and LRX. Loads were TTSX in .308 Win/130g, .300WSM/165g and a .300WM/175g LRX. We also had two runners. The first was an antelope my hunting buddy shot wiht his 7mmRM and a 140g TTSX. It went maybe 20 yards. The second was an antelope that ran about 35 yards after I shot it with my .257 Roberts and a 110g AccuBond. Does that suggest the 7mm RM/140g TTSX or the .257 Roberts/110g AccuBond are inadequate or poor choices Nope.

False fears. I have never seen any kind of proof, that lead fragments have ever had any detrimental effects on humans. I think the monos are great, when extreme penetration is needed. Otherwise, not so much.

You need to dig a little deaper. There is no argument that lead fragments injested by young children are anything but detrimental.

There have been cases of TTSX's failing to expand as well. Forum member Brad recovered one more or less intact save the tip missing and IIRC it was not a long shot either.
I have had a 30 caliber 180ttsx exhibit pretty poor performance on a cow elk that lead me to question of the bullet opened up. Never recovered the slug so I can say for certain although the exit woound and intwrnal damage was very slight.

I'm sure it has happened, we just have not seen it. The one elk I took (.300WM/180g MRX @ 400yds) made it about 15 feet and all five deer (three with the .300WM and 180 MRX, one with the .300WM/175g LRX, one with a .30-06/168g TTSX) have been straight-down bang-flops. Every animal my group has shot with the TTSX and tipped X kin have had lots of damage between the ribs, in spite of initial concerns they might not open on antelope. The entrance wound photo I showed for the 175g LRX was anything but a pencil-thru.

Small sample, I know, but a high percentage of bang-flops. If the ban-flop/runner percentages were reversed, I wouldn't consider using the TTSX or its kin.

I believe the LRX expands easier than the TTSX. I have 50 more TTSX loads to use uo in my 300 ultra, then I plan to switch over to either LRX or etips which ever shoots best.

Lead poisoning is a well understood reality and young children are particularly susceptible. My grandkids rarely eat beef but they do eat a lot of game. If using monos, which perform quite well for my group, eliminates lead in their diet, even minute quantities, I see only upside.

Lead poisoning isnt so much the issue as it takes a large amount of lead to cause it. However, it only takes a small amount of lead to effect cognative development of young children.

So that explains ME!

Fixed it for you.....

Must have ingested a little lead...

But you didn't fix effect...

OUCH!

It hurts when the spelling Nazi is caught!


Touche' !

My freshman algebra classes revealed a number of students who must have gnawed leaded paint from granny's windowsills.