Any time that there is an argument about homosexuality, and someone quotes Leviticus, as sure as the sun comes up every morning someone else will say that nowhere in the New Testament is homosexuality mentioned. The Bible consists of TWO parts.....the Old Testament, and the New Testament. I'm sure that everyone has their opinion on this, but I believe that in the OT we are being given the history of mankind, the laws that God expects us to live by, and being set up for the coming of Jesus Christ. The NT is about Jesus, his life and death, the promise fulfilled by God, and the works of those who followed Jesus. This is just my brief summary......but nowhere in the NT does Jesus, or anyone else for that matter, say that we are to forget about what was written in the OT, as those words no longer matter. Consequently, I think that the two go hand in hand, and one cannot stand alone without the other.
Now, even if I did not believe in what was written in the Bible, and believed that man was not created by a higher being, but came from a monkey, I still could not accept homosexuality or transgender. Why......it's simple.....we all live by the laws of nature one way or another, and being the animals we are, we live under that set of rules. There are NO homosexual or transgender animals.......period. They don't exist, because they can't exist. In order to insure the survival of the species, there are males and there are females, and they MUST mate with a member f the opposite sex, not a member of the same sex, in order to reproduce.......a process that is so simple that anyone should be able to understand it.
I am sure that God loves everyone that He has created, the drunkards, the thieves, the harlots, and even the queers and the trannies......but He is also very specific about what He says about certain behavior. His word is the final word as to who gets into his kingdom, not some council of churches, and He has spoken about homosexuality and transgender people. Their behavior excludes them from His kingdom.
That's probably the view of most Christians but it is completely wrong. It's wrong because you think God gave you laws by which to live. God gave you laws to illustrate what it would take to live perfectly,so you would know you were a law breaker. The problem is that Christians pick and choose which ones are really bad,like homosexuality,and murder,but excuse the ones they commonly practice like lying,cheating,having sex outside marriage,etc. The law however says that if you even break the smallest one,you are guilty of all. God put that one in there so you wouldn't think your 85% was a passing grade.
None of that is normally preached though because religion is set up to control people. Go to church and pay your tithes and you are assured heaven.In the early Catholic days they would even sell indulgences.Yes,you could pay extra just to commit a really bad sin and it would be OK. Religion has always been screwed up like that. Most churches are only slightly better today. They will tell you how sinful you are and that you should pray for forgiveness and just double your efforts not to sin again. People really try not to sin and they are under constant condemnation because they always fail,but mostly they feel like they are doing their best so surly God will think they did good enough. All the while they are in a terribly situation of trusting in themselves.
Now back to the beginning.God only gave all those laws so you could see how sinful you are,and so know that you needed to rely on a sacrifice to pay the price for your sin. That's why he set up animal sacrifices,so his people would get use to the idea of relying on the blood of the sacrifice. Then God had himself born a human man. He wasn't born the normal way, so that he wouldn't inherit the sin nature of Adam's offspring. Being a man but completely without any sin,he offered himself to pay the price of sin for all mankind. Now through faith,by accepting that his sacrifice is for you,he accepts your sin debt as paid in full by his own sacrifice.
Our right standing with God is not based for one second on how we act. It is only based on what we believe. We are only forgiven by our faith in his sacrifice. Now here's the real good part. When we really accept that this wonderful God did this awesome thing for us,we don't want to sin. We don't want to be the same way we were before we believed.The catch though is that you can never change the way you act and stop your sinful ways as long as you are trying with all your might in your own power. It can only be done when you surrender your whole life to the Holy Spirit and really understand that you are in the good and right standing with God only because of him.
Even so,you are still going to mess up in some way every day. That's OK because you are forgiven,you are still a child of God.You just have to keep hanging out with God until you start thinking more like he does. If you keep reading his word and listening to what he tells you,it will change your desires. That sin that you couldn't stop before won't have any power over you any more. That is what it means to be born again,and that is what the bible means when it talks about putting on the new man and renewing your mind. Just keep on,but you are never relying on how well you can keep a bunch of laws. If you ever do that,you have stopped having faith in God and started having faith in yourself,and that is the most dangerous place to be.
Any time that there is an argument about homosexuality, and someone quotes Leviticus, as sure as the sun comes up every morning someone else will say that nowhere in the New Testament is homosexuality mentioned. The Bible consists of TWO parts.....the Old Testament, and the New Testament. I'm sure that everyone has their opinion on this, but I believe that in the OT we are being given the history of mankind, the laws that God expects us to live by, and being set up for the coming of Jesus Christ. The NT is about Jesus, his life and death, the promise fulfilled by God, and the works of those who followed Jesus. This is just my brief summary......but nowhere in the NT does Jesus, or anyone else for that matter, say that we are to forget about what was written in the OT, as those words no longer matter. Consequently, I think that the two go hand in hand, and one cannot stand alone without the other.
Now, even if I did not believe in what was written in the Bible, and believed that man was not created by a higher being, but came from a monkey, I still could not accept homosexuality or transgender. Why......it's simple.....we all live by the laws of nature one way or another, and being the animals we are, we live under that set of rules. There are NO homosexual or transgender animals.......period. They don't exist, because they can't exist. In order to insure the survival of the species, there are males and there are females, and they MUST mate with a member f the opposite sex, not a member of the same sex, in order to reproduce.......a process that is so simple that anyone should be able to understand it.
I am sure that God loves everyone that He has created, the drunkards, the thieves, the harlots, and even the queers and the trannies......but He is also very specific about what He says about certain behavior. His word is the final word as to who gets into his kingdom, not some council of churches, and He has spoken about homosexuality and transgender people. Their behavior excludes them from His kingdom.
That's probably the view of most Christians but it is completely wrong. It's wrong because you think God gave you laws by which to live. God gave you laws to illustrate what it would take to live perfectly,so you would know you were a law breaker. The problem is that Christians pick and choose which ones are really bad,like homosexuality,and murder,but excuse the ones they commonly practice like lying,cheating,having sex outside marriage,etc. The law however says that if you even break the smallest one,you are guilty of all. God put that one in there so you wouldn't think your 85% was a passing grade.
None of that is normally preached though because religion is set up to control people. Go to church and pay your tithes and you are assured heaven.In the early Catholic days they would even sell indulgences.Yes,you could pay extra just to commit a really bad sin and it would be OK. Religion has always been screwed up like that. Most churches are only slightly better today. They will tell you how sinful you are and that you should pray for forgiveness and just double your efforts not to sin again. People really try not to sin and they are under constant condemnation because they always fail,but mostly they feel like they are doing their best so surly God will think they did good enough. All the while they are in a terribly situation of trusting in themselves.
Now back to the beginning.God only gave all those laws so you could see how sinful you are,and so know that you needed to rely on a sacrifice to pay the price for your sin. That's why he set up animal sacrifices,so his people would get use to the idea of relying on the blood of the sacrifice. Then God had himself born a human man. He wasn't born the normal way, so that he wouldn't inherit the sin nature of Adam's offspring. Being a man but completely without any sin,he offered himself to pay the price of sin for all mankind. Now through faith,by accepting that his sacrifice is for you,he accepts your sin debt as paid in full by his own sacrifice.
Our right standing with God is not based for one second on how we act. It is only based on what we believe. We are only forgiven by our faith in his sacrifice. Now here's the real good part. When we really accept that this wonderful God did this awesome thing for us,we don't want to sin. We don't want to be the same way we were before we believed.The catch though is that you can never change the way you act and stop your sinful ways as long as you are trying with all your might in your own power. It can only be done when you surrender your whole life to the Holy Spirit and really understand that you are in the good and right standing with God only because of him.
Even so,you are still going to mess up in some way every day. That's OK because you are forgiven,you are still a child of God.You just have to keep hanging out with God until you start thinking more like he does. If you keep reading his word and listening to what he tells you,it will change your desires. That sin that you couldn't stop before won't have any power over you any more. That is what it means to be born again,and that is what the bible means when it talks about putting on the new man and renewing your mind. Just keep on,but you are never relying on how well you can keep a bunch of laws. If you ever do that,you have stopped having faith in God and started having faith in yourself,and that is the most dangerous place to be.
Some good points, but homosexuality is wrong......God said so, and not only that, nowhere does He tell us that's it's okay to engage in it, as long as we are "born again."
Any time that there is an argument about homosexuality, and someone quotes Leviticus, as sure as the sun comes up every morning someone else will say that nowhere in the New Testament is homosexuality mentioned. The Bible consists of TWO parts.....the Old Testament, and the New Testament. I'm sure that everyone has their opinion on this, but I believe that in the OT we are being given the history of mankind, the laws that God expects us to live by, and being set up for the coming of Jesus Christ. The NT is about Jesus, his life and death, the promise fulfilled by God, and the works of those who followed Jesus. This is just my brief summary......but nowhere in the NT does Jesus, or anyone else for that matter, say that we are to forget about what was written in the OT, as those words no longer matter. Consequently, I think that the two go hand in hand, and one cannot stand alone without the other.
Now, even if I did not believe in what was written in the Bible, and believed that man was not created by a higher being, but came from a monkey, I still could not accept homosexuality or transgender. Why......it's simple.....we all live by the laws of nature one way or another, and being the animals we are, we live under that set of rules. There are NO homosexual or transgender animals.......period. They don't exist, because they can't exist. In order to insure the survival of the species, there are males and there are females, and they MUST mate with a member f the opposite sex, not a member of the same sex, in order to reproduce.......a process that is so simple that anyone should be able to understand it.
I am sure that God loves everyone that He has created, the drunkards, the thieves, the harlots, and even the queers and the trannies......but He is also very specific about what He says about certain behavior. His word is the final word as to who gets into his kingdom, not some council of churches, and He has spoken about homosexuality and transgender people. Their behavior excludes them from His kingdom.
That's probably the view of most Christians but it is completely wrong. It's wrong because you think God gave you laws by which to live. God gave you laws to illustrate what it would take to live perfectly,so you would know you were a law breaker. The problem is that Christians pick and choose which ones are really bad,like homosexuality,and murder,but excuse the ones they commonly practice like lying,cheating,having sex outside marriage,etc. The law however says that if you even break the smallest one,you are guilty of all. God put that one in there so you wouldn't think your 85% was a passing grade.
None of that is normally preached though because religion is set up to control people. Go to church and pay your tithes and you are assured heaven.In the early Catholic days they would even sell indulgences.Yes,you could pay extra just to commit a really bad sin and it would be OK. Religion has always been screwed up like that. Most churches are only slightly better today. They will tell you how sinful you are and that you should pray for forgiveness and just double your efforts not to sin again. People really try not to sin and they are under constant condemnation because they always fail,but mostly they feel like they are doing their best so surly God will think they did good enough. All the while they are in a terribly situation of trusting in themselves.
Now back to the beginning.God only gave all those laws so you could see how sinful you are,and so know that you needed to rely on a sacrifice to pay the price for your sin. That's why he set up animal sacrifices,so his people would get use to the idea of relying on the blood of the sacrifice. Then God had himself born a human man. He wasn't born the normal way, so that he wouldn't inherit the sin nature of Adam's offspring. Being a man but completely without any sin,he offered himself to pay the price of sin for all mankind. Now through faith,by accepting that his sacrifice is for you,he accepts your sin debt as paid in full by his own sacrifice.
Our right standing with God is not based for one second on how we act. It is only based on what we believe. We are only forgiven by our faith in his sacrifice. Now here's the real good part. When we really accept that this wonderful God did this awesome thing for us,we don't want to sin. We don't want to be the same way we were before we believed.The catch though is that you can never change the way you act and stop your sinful ways as long as you are trying with all your might in your own power. It can only be done when you surrender your whole life to the Holy Spirit and really understand that you are in the good and right standing with God only because of him.
Even so,you are still going to mess up in some way every day. That's OK because you are forgiven,you are still a child of God.You just have to keep hanging out with God until you start thinking more like he does. If you keep reading his word and listening to what he tells you,it will change your desires. That sin that you couldn't stop before won't have any power over you any more. That is what it means to be born again,and that is what the bible means when it talks about putting on the new man and renewing your mind. Just keep on,but you are never relying on how well you can keep a bunch of laws. If you ever do that,you have stopped having faith in God and started having faith in yourself,and that is the most dangerous place to be.
Some good points, but homosexuality is wrong......God said so, and not only that, nowhere does He tell us that's it's okay to engage in it, as long as we are "born again."
Didn't say he did,or that it was OK but it's the same as lying,cheating on your taxes,or any other sin in that they are all hell worthy without God's grace. The difference is your earthly consequences,not God's judgement. God judges all sin as worthy of Hell but also gives grace through Jesus for all sin. He wants you free from them because of their effect on you. God will forgive someone for adultery but it might destroy their family. God will forgive someone for cheating on their taxes but they may spend some time in prison. God will forgive the homosexual but he might catch aids and die.
Yes,absolutely God wants us all free from sin, but the way to that freedom is understanding that you are a new and different person when you are born again,and completely forgiven. The more you understand your new birth ,the more you act like the new person.
Yes,homosexuality is wrong,but all sin is wrong. The problem is us when we think our sin is small and someone else's is huge. We drive away the bad sinner from the very grace that he needs to set him free.
AS, there were gasses floating in space and a spark made the universe, life, monkeys and you.
God made folks like you just to see who would stand up for Him. Just as He made Pharaoh stiff necked to show the world His power He made many like you. Just as He made Pharaoh think the pestilence that devoured his land and the plague that afflicted his people and the wine that changed his water and the death He visited on Pharaohs crew, He has chosen for you, who deny Him. You have no choice in the matter. As a subject of Satan you strive for Satans reward of eteranal damnation. Wear your reward proudly. You have earned it.
Good job demolishing the Christian hypothesis of Free Will.
Well,I don't have time this morning to address the whole issue Jaguartx brought up when he suggests God made Pharaoh choose not to let the Children of Israel go just so he could punish him for it. He also suggested Jesus healed the man at the pool and then threatened to make him worse if he sinned again.
That is simply not the nature of God!! It is a misunderstanding because of not understanding the original languages and religious tradition took over from there.
I'm headed out to our deer opener this morning and will try to address the question farther if possible. Until then I will say that if anyone is interested they can look at the original language and see an entirely different meaning. God didn't harden pharaoh in the manner suggested. It was more like the case where a mother would anger a child to farther wrath by telling him that he had to do something he didn't want to do,causing the child to throw a fit. The original languages bring it out.
Often I think we don't believe in the same God. You seem to believe in a Sunday school God who is NOT infinite but sort of infinite from neutral to nice. Noah"s Flood was NOT Noah's Flood. It was God's Flood. He killed all the beautiful virgins and puppy dogs and butterflies and grouchy old men equally. Here are Some Quotes from The God of the Bible Who claims to harden hearts.
Exodus 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Exodus 14:4-8 Thus I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” And they did so. When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his servants had a change of heart toward the people, and they said, “What is this we have done, that we have let Israel go from serving us?” So he made his chariot ready and took his people with him; and he took six hundred select chariots, and all the other chariots of Egypt with officers over all of them. The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and he chased after the sons of Israel as the sons of Israel were going out boldly.
Exodus 14:17-18 As for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. Then the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD, when I am honored through Pharaoh, through his chariots and his horsemen.”
Deuteronomy 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as today.
Mark 4:10:12 As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, asked Him about the parables. And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
If I was someone new to Christianity and trying to figure out if it was truth, and what exactly that truth was, I think I would have to conclude that its all nonsense and nobody reallt knows what they are talking about. Everyone claims to have the answers, yet few can agree on even basic points. Despite reading the same text, vastly different conclusions are reached and then endlessly fought about, with no detectable progress on any side. Evidence is presented by one to support his argument and just as quickly another presents equally valid counter evidence...all from within the same book.
I'll say this... for the vast majority, had they not been raised as Christian and only examined it once they reached adulthood, very few would say that it seems logical and believable. Who can blame them? You have a dozen different people with a dozen different opinions, all claiming theirs is the right one with the scripture to back it up. What is the logical conclusion? Honestly, the only logical conclusion seems to be that most likely nobody knows what they are talking about. You may as well make up your own mind and go with it, no matter what you do someone is going to claim your wrong and doomed to hell.
If I was someone new to Christianity and trying to figure out if it was truth, and what exactly that truth was, I think I would have to conclude that its all nonsense and nobody reallt knows what they are talking about. Everyone claims to have the answers, yet few can agree on even basic points. Despite reading the same text, vastly different conclusions are reached and then endlessly fought about, with no detectable progress on any side. Evidence is presented by one to support his argument and just as quickly another presents equally valid counter evidence...all from within the same book.
I'll say this... for the vast majority, had they not been raised as Christian and only examined it once they reached adulthood, very few would say that it seems logical and believable. Who can blame them? You have a dozen different people with a dozen different opinions, all claiming theirs is the right one with the scripture to back it up. What is the logical conclusion? Honestly, the only logical conclusion seems to be that most likely nobody knows what they are talking about. You may as well make up your own mind and go with it, no matter what you do someone is going to claim your wrong and doomed to hell.
If done with a serious and painfully honest intent there lies the true path to wisdom and personal salvation. Although, as you also state, many will claim you are wrong and doomed to hell.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery. Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
It's no more complicated than the two approaches to looking at God's Word. Only two! That apples to those who claim to be "Christian" or not.
One comes to God's Word with the idea God spoke through men with the exact words He wanted and we can accept them. These individuals believe the front of the Bible where we read the translators translated from the original languages into our modern language.
Or one comes to the Bible with their opinions and preconceptions. There are educated people in both camps. The second group includes "Christians" who teach one needs to know when, to whom, why, and any number of other educated sounding things about It being written. The second group also includes those who claim It is a fraud.
It is no more complicated than this.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
If I was someone new to Christianity and trying to figure out if it was truth, and what exactly that truth was, I think I would have to conclude that its all nonsense and nobody reallt knows what they are talking about. Everyone claims to have the answers, yet few can agree on even basic points. Despite reading the same text, vastly different conclusions are reached and then endlessly fought about, with no detectable progress on any side. Evidence is presented by one to support his argument and just as quickly another presents equally valid counter evidence...all from within the same book.
I'll say this... for the vast majority, had they not been raised as Christian and only examined it once they reached adulthood, very few would say that it seems logical and believable. Who can blame them? You have a dozen different people with a dozen different opinions, all claiming theirs is the right one with the scripture to back it up. What is the logical conclusion? Honestly, the only logical conclusion seems to be that most likely nobody knows what they are talking about. You may as well make up your own mind and go with it, no matter what you do someone is going to claim your wrong and doomed to hell.
Yeah, like Paul, huh, who wasnt raised as a Christian?
Last edited by jaguartx; 11/18/17.
Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
There is more to man than the physical. Some focus on that and forget the spiritual aspect of life. Many feel we are not endowed by a creator with certain inalienable rights. Animals dont contemplate the possibility of an afterlife and have no concept of right and wrong. Human animals with no such concerns would do as well not to consider any more than an animal does.
For those who want to know they can ask God to come into their heart. Of course, most who dont believe dont actually want to give up their wicked ways and "live in misery". A dishonest question begets a dishonest answer, and its not from Him.
The truth and what one believes are often not the same. Many today believe they have many more years left, while in fact they wont, whether by disease or accident. Dont confuse the truth with your feelings.
Last edited by jaguartx; 11/18/17.
Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
Thanks, Ringman for that effort in standing up for the Word and Truth.
Ringman is a blind because he refuses to see, even when presented with light, and you are following the blind. I do realize the KJV translates the scripture as such, but it is interpreted wrong. I have studied these subjects for decades,reading after the most respected Greek and Hebrew scholars in existence.
When in doubt, go to the book. You can't go wrong that way.
John 3:6 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
this one is where many fail. They try to work their way in to heaven. It says here plainly that it can't be done. Any church or religion that requires you to earn your salvation is a fraud. Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no-one can boast.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” ― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
Just trot out the 3 passages from the NT that I quoted earlier about homosexuality. The NT very much DOES condemn it.[/quote]---------------- I believe your NT passages were quoted from Paul's opinion. Paul seems at best to be a rather conflicted individual who I believe might have named himself an apostle without any authority whatsoever to do so. Everybody else Jesus called he called publicly. I think it noteworthy that Jesus did not dwell on the subject of homosexuality, and he did not abolish or end the law (he affirmed the law). It was already against the law, as it should be. That law just like the others were for the benefit of mankind. The homosexual and dietary proscriptions were as much a matter of public health as anything. Many of the laws were for the maintenance of an orderly society . The need for the law did not die on the cross. Be careful when you read Paul. To me he is confusing and contradictory to Jesus. On the other hand Jesus is straight forward and easy to understand
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus was in a different culture than Paul. Jesus mainly stayed in the Jewish-dominated areas. Paul ventured out into pagan Rome where there were different issues to deal with.
Jesus hand picked Paul to carry the message west to the Greeks and Romans. Many people dislike Paul because he tells it like it is and it hits home. They don't want to hear what Paul said because it makes them feel guilty, as well it should. We're all guilty and Paul knew how to lay it on the line. He's convicted me many times. Jesus picked him and I'll take Jesus' word for it that Paul was the right man for the job.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” ― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
More wars have been fought, and more lives lost over religion than anything I can think of. We can argue it on here until the cows come home, but no one is going to change anyone else's mind. Here is how I see it.......I struggle every day trying to lead a life that I hope will get me in heaven, when the time comes. I accepted Jesus as my savior, and I know that if I do my part, He will do is. I believe that when we get to heaven, we are going to be surprised at who we see, and who we don't see there.
More wars have been fought, and more lives lost over religion than anything I can think of. We can argue it on here until the cows come home, but no one is going to change anyone else's mind. Here is how I see it.......I struggle every day trying to lead a life that I hope will get me in heaven, when the time comes. I accepted Jesus as my savior, and I know that if I do my part, He will do is. I believe that when we get to heaven, we are going to be surprised at who we see, and who we don't see there.
And next most is money, nookie, and whiskey. So what?
Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
