Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Savage smokeless ML

i apologize if this has already been hashed out. saw this posted in the local paper.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/coll...2cbf4e5-d909-5cb9-9003-b2b9e3cc32a9.html

IOWA CITY, Iowa (AP) — It was the opening day of deer hunting season, and Ronald Hansen says he loaded his rifle the same way he had countless times before, aimed at a target and fired a shot.

This time, the gun barrel exploded, knocking the farmer from Hampton, Iowa, backward, severely damaging his right hand and ear and burning his face.

Unknown to Hansen, the manufacturer of the rifle that injured him in 2014 had received other complaints of explosions and injuries over the prior decade. Customers repeatedly reported that the barrel of the stainless steel 10 ML-II muzzleloader exploded, burst, split or cracked, according to thousands of court documents reviewed by The Associated Press.

Lawyers for the company, Westfield, Massachusetts-based Savage Arms, were expected to appear Wednesday in federal court in Iowa to defend against a lawsuit filed by Hansen. He is seeking damages for his injuries, alleging the company failed to warn customers about the defect.

It's one of several lawsuits that have claimed the company recklessly kept the muzzleloaders on the market even as they kept occasionally mangling hands, damaging hearing and burning faces. At least three have been settled on a confidential basis since last year.

Martin Crimp, a Michigan State University metals expert who examined a 10ML-II that exploded and caused a hunter to lose multiple fingers in 2009, told the AP the barrel of that gun was "metallurgically defective."

An expert hired by Hansen's lawyers came to a similar conclusion, saying the steel used to make the rifle was prone to catastrophic failure after repeat firings.

Anthony Pisciotti, an outside lawyer for Savage Arms, said he wasn't authorized to comment. A spokesman for its parent company, Vista Outdoor, didn't return messages.

Savage Arms, which discontinued the gun in 2010 after thousands were on the market, has insisted it's safe when used properly, has no defects and was designed in accordance with industry standards.

Savage Arms has argued that operator error is to blame for the explosions, saying users must have created too much pressure inside the barrel either by loading two bullets or using the wrong amount or type of gunpowder. It has issued a safety notice on its website warning owners to "carefully follow the safe loading procedures" in the product manual to avoid injuries.

Hansen's case highlights how gun makers, unlike manufacturers of other consumer products, have the sole discretion to decide themselves whether to recall potentially dangerous weapons. In 1976, Congress blocked the newly-created Consumer Product Safety Commission, which has broad authority to regulate everything from toasters to toys and BB guns, from restricting the manufacture or sale of firearms.

"It's an example of an industry that can essentially do whatever they want and there's no consequences other than being held accountable in a civil liability context," said Kristen Rand, legislative director of the Violence Policy Center in Washington D.C.

Other companies have faced allegations that they allowed unsafe guns to stay on the market. Remington agreed to replace triggers in its popular Model 700 rifles — only after several lawsuits claiming that they were prone to accidentally discharging. Ruger was accused of marketing revolvers for decades that could fire when dropped.

Savage Arms recently agreed to settle a lawsuit filed by Trent Procter, who was on a hunting trip with friends in October 2009 when the 10 ML-II he'd owned for years "just blew apart" when he shot at a target.

Procter, 48, missed nine months of work from his job as a power company lineman as he endured surgeries on his left hand and rehabilitation. He had to move to a different job and still experiences numbness due to nerve damage in his hand, where he's missing parts of his thumb and middle finger.

Photos of Procter's hand were shared on hunting websites after the explosion, and he said it was insulting that some suggested he and not a defective product was to blame.

"I'm surprised it was never recalled or a warning was put out that this was actually happening," he said. "It's quite scary when you think about it."

Last year, the company also settled a case brought by Michigan hunter Rodney Palatka and his wife, who was pregnant with twins and suffered a miscarriage after witnessing her husband's injuries.

James Putman of North Carolina alleges in a pending lawsuit that his Savage 10ML-II burst as he hunted last year in the George Washington National Forest, blasting his thumb off and forcing his early retirement as a firefighter.

Savage Arms started making the 10ML-II in 2001. It was designed to withstand the use of smokeless powder, which appealed to some shooters because it didn't require the same messy cleanup as black powder.

The company's knowledge of the barrel problems is becoming clear after years of lawsuits.

In Palatka's case, a federal magistrate in 2015 sanctioned the company for a "purposeful record of obfuscation" that included falsely claiming that it was aware of only two prior explosions while withholding information that showed otherwise.

The company acknowledged in Hansen's case that it received 45 legal claims related to burst or split barrels dating to 2004. Hansen's lawyers say documents show Savage Arms created a special "muzzleloader return team" and faced hundreds of warranty and service claims.

Some hunters were offered free replacement rifles after they were told their errors caused the damage.

Hansen, 50 and a lifelong hunter, testified in an August deposition that he followed the recommended procedures when he loaded his 10ML-II, which he bought in 2010 and had shot 200 times. He said he weighed and loaded 43 grains of the recommended powder and one bullet. He set a target at 50 yards, laid on a dirt pile, aimed and fired.

Hansen, who was rushed to the emergency room after the explosion, testified he still struggles to hear even with a hearing aid and cannot perform some farm chores due to his hand injury.

Savage Arms has suggested that Hansen used an improper mix of powders that caused too much pressure. Trial is set for next year.

Oh damn!

That picture is not Hansen. Its a old picture from 2009.

Smokeless muzzleloaders are not for rookies or for the careless. Too many of the guys with smokeless muzzleloaders are in for reasons that are dangerous. First, many are in simply because they hate cleaning their rifles and have been told that you don't have to clean a smokeless rifle. The other group wants a muzzleloader capable of shooting and killing at 300 plus yards. So they buy the rifles and do not really understand how sensitive these things are to load variation and load pressure and they get brave or careless.

Don't forget the guys who forget to remove the ramrod from the barrel before firing. Some guys should not shoot muzzleloaders or reload-ever.

Im an owner of a Savage 10ML-11 smokeless muzzleloader and I'm going to call BS here and now. I'm not going to list all the tests Savage put the 10ML-I/II trough prior to it going into production, but bottom line is it is the most well made and throroughly tested ML ever produced. And I presently belong to the two most popular muzzleloader websites dedicated to smokeless muzzleloaders Dougs savage message boards and Modern muzzleloader and any such catastrophic failures get posted about pretty quickly, and my money is on operator error not the rifle. Also The sabot is in of itself a type of pressure relief valve that unless YOU make a serious error such as a double loading or leave the ram rod in and fire, the sabot will fail allowing the excess pressure to pass by the bullet and safely exit the bore. Also if he was using ONLY SAVAGE recommended powders and loads it would be next to impassible for such a failure to occur as such loads produce pressures at least 2-2.5x less than the rifle is designed to withstand.

The guys at Doug's Savage message board like myself have put combined literally and truthfully 100's of thousands of CORRECTLY LOADED smokeless loads through our 10ML-1's and 10ML-II's with zero issues. many at the board posted instances where THEY mistakenly double loaded their Savages and shot them and also left the ram rod in and shot them. None had anything worse happen than a bulged barrel. These loads I speak of ARE NOT Savage recommended loads that push a 250 or 300 grain .451" XTP at 2200-2350 FPS/MV, quite to the contrary. I'm speaking of loads that push 245/250 grain Barnes ML bullet at a MV of 2700-3000 FPS and 290-300 grain projectiles at a MV of 2450-2500 FPS and even higher.

Is it possible Savage produced a faulty barrel for a 10ML-II? Yes it is, but the odds are VASTLY in favor of operator error as the cause of any 10ML catastrophic failure. If you have read the type of and level to which Savage subjected the 10ML design to prior to going into production you would understand just how infinitesimally small the odds of a 10ML bowing up if one is using only Savage approved and recommended loads.

It is Proctor's
https://www.newsday.com/sports/coll...aves-trail-of-injured-hunters-1.15324818

I agree with much of what you said, however, we're pushing bullets to those
velocities in .451-.458 barrels which are made with more barrel wall thickness
than the factory .50's. With few exceptions, there are no holes drilled & tapped
for a rear sight, which is a weak spot in the factory barrel.

Even at that, there was one instance of a blown .458 barrel in which 310gr APB's
pushed to high end were double loaded. Fortunately, he was not severely hurt,
even though the barrel was "shredded". He is now a firm advocate of using and
always checking the witness mark.

I am sure that there are those who double loaded their 10MLII's and did not
realize it before their rifle blew up. Part of human nature in those instances is
to think "it wasn't my fault", thus the litigation Savage has gone through.

Using smokeless powder is somewhat like flying aircraft in that you're only
allowed one dumb mistake. It can be anything from a double load in a ML or
mistakenly using pistol powder in a rifle case.

Maybe they were using dippers instead of weighing each charge. Maybe grabbed wrong dipper??

I weigh each charge.

Is it possible the bullet broke apart and lodged into the barrel? Also , I talked to Krieger barrels one time and they did not like stainless steel barrels for cold weather. The guy said they can split right down the middle like it was sawed by a sawsall. They will make heavy stainless but were not keen on the lighter ones. Were these guns shot in very cold weather?

As has been said
Likely operator error, anytime the guy pulling the trigger is also pouring the powder in and adding a projectile you have the potential for a pipe bomb. Mistakes are made, problem is with the smokeless guns operating at pressures near CFs there is NO room for error, NONE.

Savage will never build another SML nor will any other manufacturer. smaller custom makers? Yes, but over the counter guns for the masses? Nope.
Too many guys that make the double load, double bullet, double powder or leave the ramrod in the barrel mistake.
Smokeless guns are not for the masses, Savage learned this the hard way.

Yes I started out with one, have owned many over the years but there are better platforms to shoot from these days and much better breech plug/ priming systems out there. JMO

I have one, I weigh each charge. I’m very careful with mine.

If he double charged the gun , the sabot should have broken up under that much pressure . A sabot is a pressure relief valve in a way. If he double charges and then puts down another bullet , that might be a problem but you should know your gun well enough to know the ramrod did not go down nearly far enough. Also, Kreiger barrels does not like to make some S.S. barrels . They claim when it is cold , the barrel will sometimes split right down the middle lie it was put with a band saw. I think it was S.S. 416. metal. I dont know if that would happen with a thicker Muzzloader barrel however.

The way I handle loading the Savage is to take out just one charge, one primer and one bullet at a time and consciously say "There, I have one of everything in my hand and nothing else." If there is only one of each at hand, there is only one of each going down the barrel. Load from a pile of charges and you are only a distraction away from loading two. You will probably live through that mistake but your barrel won't.

what sabots are you using with 300 grain xtp bullets. I was using the 250s but I switched to 300 grainers and now my accuracy isn't quite there. Are the orange or red mmp sabots better?

MMP orange is for 458s, not XTPs.

MMP does not make a red 50cal sabot for .452s except for Hornady's SSTs. Those are for tight bore rifles. MMPs version is a black 3 petal EZ load. They just dye it red for Hornady. I think the red sabot you are talking about is the Harvester Red Crushrib for smokeless. Its a very large OD sabot.