Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Root of Jesse and the Offspring of David

I tell you what I think is funny, a bunch of us arguing over what and who Jesus is,as if any of us could define him. He is the Alpha and Omega,The first and the Last, The one who was dead and lives again, God, Savior, Emanuel,Messiah, The Rose of Sharon, The Lion of the Tribe of Judah, The lamb of God,The Holy one of Israel, Prince of Peace,The Great I Am,The Bridegroom,The Vine,The Word of God, The image of the Invisible God. By him all things were created that are in Heaven and in earth,visible,and invisible,whether they be thrones,or dominions,or principalities,or powers,all things were created by him,and by him all things consist.

Yet we want to argue about who he is.

RH, I hope our discussions about Jesus, which are Spiritually based, are not considered arguing by non-believers, especially at this season of the year. I enjoy discussing the Bible, and hearing what others think.

Those two passages I listed and discussed . . . Mt 5:17-18 and 2 Tim 2:15-18 still have quite a bit of meat on them, and are difficult passages for Amillennials (traditional belief in a future coming of Christ)

I don't have any problem with you my friend. I like discussing things too. I've only met one other person who believed like you do (perhaps) as I'm not sure I have it all completely straight (your beliefs that is).

Personally,I don't have any problem with those passages since I see Christ as having fulfilled all the law of Moses,and so then,the law can pass away,and indeed has. It has been replaced with a much better system though,The Law,of the Spirit of life,in Christ Jesus. I don't need a law for indeed I have the very Spirit of God to lead and guide me in every area. It's the listening part that I need work on.LOL

My friend as long as you trust in Jesus Christ and in him alone for your salvation,everything else is much less important,and though very interesting and worthy of debate,never to be argued over or divided because of.

First of all, John 10:17-18......Jesus plainly said that no one could take his life, but that he would lay it down, and pick it up again. Men can't kill God. The crucifixion was part of God's plan of salvation and it came through the Jewish nation to fulfill prophecy....John 4:22. Far as I am concerned, we all had our part in driving the nails.

This^^^^. Every time we reject Him and His Word, we are those who persecute Him and cause Him pain by essentially taking part in driving a nail.

Jesus is fully God AND fully human. His human part is ethnically Jew given His human lineage.

His sacrifice was for all, but that didn't hit me as hard as when I realized that it was for ME!

If every single other person on earth, from the time of his death on the cross until this very minute had rejected his sacrifice except me, He'd have done it anyway.

That's what brought me to my knees.

Glory to God in the Highest!!!!!!

This.

Also: Arianism. Docetism. Heresies that have been around for 1800 years or so? Something to consider anyway...

This, and Amen, RH.

This, and Amen, RH.



Amen and PTL. Well said.

And much knowledge, RH, and thanks for imparting it.

And every eye shall see him return in that cloud of glory, even those who pierced him.

Seems legit.

So here is my question . . . if this passage is literal, and every person on earth was to actually see Christ coming in the clouds of glory, with their own eyes, simultaneously, and that the resurrection of all the dead who had ever lived on earth, all the way from Adam and Eve to the day of Christ coming in the clouds, . . . . then how were these people over in 2 Tim 2 having their faith overthrown by Hymenaeus and Philetus claiming the resurrection was past? If every eye was to literally "see Christ return in the clouds of glory" someone claiming this had already happened would be laughed to scorn, no?

We need to answer these questions, and not just gaze past them and go on with our beliefs about the second coming.



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Here is an interesting take on the "resurrection."

2 Tim 2:15-18

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


Question: If the resurrection in the New Testament refers to the simultaneous 1) coming of Christ in the clouds, 2) on the day of judgment, 3) the end of time, 4) the burning up of the sun, moon, and stars, and 5) the resurrection of all the dead of all people from the beginning of Adam and Eve, to be 6) judged by Christ, sitting on the throne of judgment, separating the good from the evil, like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats . . . then how could the faith of some be over thrown simply by Hymenaeus and Philetus saying that "the resurrection is past already?" How could these people possibly believe "the resurrection is past already" if all of these visible and astonishing things were to happen in front of their very eyes? Is it possible that many of us today do not understand what was the Resurrection of the New Testament?

I contend the "Resurrection" mentioned in the New Testament is the resurrection of Israel form "spiritual death" and the transformation of God's people from the fleshly Israel to the " Spiritual Israel" which was fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham, and it occurred in 70 AD with the physical annihilation of the earthly vestiges of the Mosaic economy.

One really has to try hard to mess salvation up. The old testament was given as a teacher but the new testament was given for a new life in him. powdr[/quote]

Well, i will agree with this part of this. Christ put up plenty of road blocks to keep men from being cast into the lake of fire. There are messages of the good news and of Jesus Christ in place all over the modern world. Probably all in this country know others who tell of the good news of the availability of everlasting life through the good news of only having to believe the good news and accepting Christ as Savior. Many roadblocks are in the way to try and save all in these latter days.

Anyone curious about the "time of the end" and the "resurrection" or the "second coming of Christ" This is an outstanding book that will take you through every New Testament passage that deals with these subjects.




A reformation – indeed – a revolution of sorts is taking place in modern evangelical Christianity. And while many who are joining in and helping promote this movement are not even aware of it, the book you hold in your hand has contributed greatly to initiating this new reformation. This “new” movement is sometimes called full preterism, (Also, and preferably by this writer, Covenant Eschatology). It is the belief that all Bible prophecy is fulfilled.

The famous evangelist Charles H. Spurgeon was deeply impressed with the scholarly, solid research in the book, although he did not accept the “final” conclusions reached by Russell. In modern times, this work has, and continues to impress those who read it. The reason is simple, the New Testament is emphatic and unambiguous in positing Christ’s coming and the end of the age for the first century generation.

To say this has troubled both scholars and laymen alike is an understatement of massive proportions.

This book first appeared in 1878 (anonymously), and again in 1887 with author attribution. The book was well known in scholarly circles primarily and attracted a good bit of attention, both positive and negative. The public, however, seemed almost unaware of the stunning conclusions and the research supporting those conclusions, until or unless they read of Russell’s work in the footnotes of the commentaries. Scholars have recognized and grappled with this imminence element, that is the stated nearness of the day of the Lord, seldom finding satisfactory answers.

Scholars such as David Strauss accused Jesus of failure. Later, Bultmann said that every school boy knows that Jesus predicted his coming and the end of the world for his generation, and every school boy knows it did not happen. C.S. Lewis also could not resolve the apparent failed eschatology.

Bertrand Russell rejected Christianity due to the failed eschatology - as he perceived it - of Jesus and the Bible writers. As a result of these “skeptical” authors, modern Bible scholarship has followed in their path and Bible commentaries today almost casually assert the failure of the Bible writers - and Jesus - in their eschatological predictions. This is where Russell’s work is of such importance.

While Russell was not totally consistent with his own arguments and conclusions, nonetheless, his work is of tremendous importance and laid the groundwork for the modern revolution known as the preterist movement. Russell systematically addressed virtually every New Testament prediction of the eschaton. With incisive clarity and logical acumen, he sweeps aside the almost trite objections to the objective nature of the Biblical language of imminence. With excellent linguistic analysis, solid hermeneutic and powerful exegetical skills, Russell shows that there is no way to deny that Jesus and his followers not only believed in a first century, end of the age parousia, but, they taught it as divine truth claiming the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as their authority.

Russell not only fully established the undeniable reality of the first century imminence of “the end,” he powerfully and carefully shares with the reader that “the end” that Jesus and the N.T. writers were anticipating was not the end of the time space continuum (end of the world). It was in fact, the end of the Old Covenant Age of Israel that arrived with the cataclysmic destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70.

Russell properly shows how the traditional church has so badly missed the incredible significance of the end of that Old Covenant Age. Russell’s work is a stunning rejection – and corrective -- of what the “Orthodox” historical “Creedal” church has and continues to affirm. The reader may well find themselves wondering how the “divines” missed it so badly! Further, the reader will discover that Russell’s main arguments are an effective, valid and true assessment of Biblical eschatology. And make no mistake, eschatology matters.

Oh,my brother,we would have to sit down and talk about these things for hours if not days before we could completely understand. Just as a quick note,I think you read too much into the phrase "and overthrow the faith of some" by giving it substance it may not necessarily contain. I think the point is rather that the Resurrection had not come yet,and so the teaching was in error.

I was stationed at MCAS New River back in the early 1980s. One day, when coming out of church and heading to the parking lot, a young man approached me and my family and asked me if I knew that the second coming of Christ and the resurrection had already occurred. I played along, but rolled my eyes at my wife with a smile. He offered me a few brochures and the Parousia book by Russell in paper back. I thanked him and went home and put that book on my book shelf and never gave it a second thought.

Years later, and after five duty station changes, I ended up in Oklahoma City at my final duty station on Christmas Eve of 1996. As we were unpacking some boxes I came across that book. Over the next few months I began reading it, with an open Bible, and my eyes were opened as the truth about the subject flooded over me.

I shared the book with one of my spiritual brothers, and he too was engulfed in the truth. Years later, I shared it with my wife, and my most spiritual son, and he has embraced the obvious truth as well.

The bottom line is that when the student is ready, the teacher will come. I have since made contact with a brother in Christ here in Oklahoma by the name of Dr. Don Preston. He is the #1 subject matter expert and world wide debater on the topic, and he receives my financial support, because I see it as the answer to middle east peace. I don't make it a matter of faith, and I resigned as a Sunday school teacher at church because the elders were becoming uncomfortable with my teaching. I am not looking to split the church over this, but if one wants to learn the absolute and objective Scriptural teaching on this subject, I could not recommend a better place to start than with Russell's book. On Preston's website, you can access his vast library of books as well. He has been a prolific writer on the subject.

Galatians 4:4

"but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman , made under the law"





Jesus is a subordinate and not equal to God the Father.

John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad
that I am going to the Father,for the Father is greater than I."

next we have the Son saying only his Father knows.
Matthew24:36
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

Jesus gave up some of his divine attributes while on earth. He said he was subordinate to the Father while on earth but that doesn't necessarily carry over to while he's in heaven. Outside of the 30 some years that Jesus was human, we see him and God intermixed. John 1:3 says Jesus is the creator and in Gen 1:1 it says that God created the heavens and the earth. John 1:1 says that Jesus and God are the same. Jesus said that God is spirit and can't be seen so we know that when God was meeting men face to face in the OT, that was Jesus.
So, outside of his short time on earth, Jesus is fully God.

An answer to the question of resurrection.
There are more than one resurrection.
One happened on the day that Jesus rose from the dead, many were seen walking around in the cities after they were dead for years.
There will be more, one when those who are the bride of Christ will meet Him to live in that great city for a thousand year reign.
And the last when all those who denied Him will rise to be judged by God and the Saints.
3 resurrections and yes ALL will rise again whether to live in glory or be damned to hell which btw is not eternal like many think.
It will be utterly destroyed with all in it.