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. . . We see here that Abraham wasn't blessed because of his action, as in action plus faith equals blessing. Abraham was blessed because of his faith,and his action was a sign and seal which showed his faith.
In other words Abraham was accounted righteous because of his faith,before his action which showed his faith. So I believe I "hear" you saying that faith with out works (of obedience to God's commands) is dead? Heb 11:8 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Yes,you could say that. James certainly did. I prefer to say it a different way though because the statement that faith without works works is dead sometimes gives someone the idea that faith is not really faith until you add works to it. I don't like that idea because sometimes works take time. It's where people get the idea that a man could honestly and with all his heart seek salvation from Jesus yet fail to do the works,like baptism and not be saved. Maybe the man died before he could be baptized in water. It doesn't matter. I've dealt with those kinds of beliefs ever since I got saved. I prefer to say it in this way: A faith that is alive will surly produce works. Just like a healthy branch,connected to the vine,will produce fruit. A man that is saved should want to be water baptized, but I see that it is rather the baptism into Christ which saves. Yes, we must be baptized,which is just a word which means immersed,in Christ to be saved. The only way anyone is judged worthy is to become one with Christ. (to become baptized"immersed" into Christ.) 1 Cor.6:17 He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit.
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Campfire Ranger
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Is repentance a work? Is repentance a condition of salvation, just like faith?
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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. . . We see here that Abraham wasn't blessed because of his action, as in action plus faith equals blessing. Abraham was blessed because of his faith,and his action was a sign and seal which showed his faith.
In other words Abraham was accounted righteous because of his faith,before his action which showed his faith. So I believe I "hear" you saying that faith with out works (of obedience to God's commands) is dead? Heb 11:8 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Yes,you could say that. James certainly did. I prefer to say it a different way though because the statement that faith without works works is dead sometimes gives someone the idea that faith is not really faith until you add works to it. I don't like that idea because sometimes works take time. It's where people get the idea that a man could honestly and with all his heart seek salvation from Jesus yet fail to do the works,like baptism and not be saved. Maybe the man died before he could be baptized in water. It doesn't matter. I've dealt with those kinds of beliefs ever since I got saved. I prefer to say it in this way: A faith that is alive will surly produce works. Just like a healthy branch,connected to the vine,will produce fruit. A man that is saved should want to be water baptized, but I see that it is rather the baptism into Christ which saves. Yes, we must be baptized,which is just a word which means immersed,in Christ to be saved. The only way anyone is judged worthy is to become one with Christ. (to become baptized"immersed" into Christ.) 1 Cor.6:17 He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit. Perhaps you should look just a short ways up in that same chapter: 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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There are Christians out there right now speaking in tongues, casting out demons, healing the sick, etc. and they're laughed at. They're called cultists. They're accused of demon possession. It's the same as what happened in Bible times. Nothing has changed. The signs are there and the masses reject them. You would be correct. When a person or a group starts operating in the gifts of the Spirit like that, they are going to get hell's attention and hell's best shot. I went to a Pentecostal church as a young man up until about age 22. It was a glorious time for a time. I was healed of a raging ear infection of all things which has been my only physical brush with the supernatural. I was sitting in the service and my ear was HURTING. I pretty much ignored the service as all I could think about was getting to a quick med place after it was over to get a round of antibiotics. When it was over, the pastor called for people who were sick to come up for prayer. I did not want to go because it would delay my trip to the doctor.....so I was not in any kind of super spiritual mood. Something clicked on the inside that I needed to go "give it a shot". I figured if nothing else my Dad would like it. I got in line and when I got to the pastor he asked what was wrong, I told him and he asked me did I believe the Lord could heal it. I said yes, but what I was believing inside was that the Lord was going to use the doctor and the antibiotics I was about to go get to heal it. The pastor put his hands on both my ears and said be healed in the name of Jesus Christ. The infected ear got hot and it felt like warm water gushed out of it. I must have looked dumbfounded because the pastor looked at me and grinned as if he knew what happened, gave me a big bear hug and a pat on the back and went to the next person. I grabbed my earlobe and tugged on it....no pain when a few minutes earlier if I barely touched it, it hurt. Never had anything quite like that happen since that affected me in my physical body like that. I had an awesome inward witness when my Dad passed that I needed to quit praying for him and rejoice and be happy for him because he was getting to go home. Dad had had a massive stroke and I had been praying for his recovery for about a day and a night. After the witness I had tremendous peace even though I was losing my earthly father, spiritual father, and best pal. I was able to take my eyes off myself and be joyful for what Dad was gaining instead of wallowing in self pity for what I was losing. One night I was in bed praising the Lord, ie "saying my prayers" my mind was on him and the most far thing away from it was a rental house my Mother owns. Suddenly like an arrow the thought shot into my mind "you need to get your ass to that house first thing in the morning the gas is leaking out of the water heater". I went and guess what.....the gas was leaking out of a coupling going to the water heater. The old lady living there could not smell it but I sure could. That is the sum total of my "out there" supernatural experiences. Ya'll believe what you want to believe. The church where the Lord healed my ear did not last long. First a dispute over the pastor's salary started. One of the "elders" left the church over it, and his family and friends went with him. Next a dispute over whether or not women could teach or speak from the pulpit. People split over that. The Holy Spirit packed his bags and went somewhere else. The church died and the building was taken over by another group. That was 30 years ago. Last I heard the pastor that prayed for my ear, now getting on up there in age, is a missionary overseas. Not an uncommon scenario. I've been to other churches that have tried to force or fake what went on there for a short while but have never found one quite the same. Thanks for sharing. DF
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Campfire Outfitter
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Is repentance a work? Is repentance a condition of salvation, just like faith? I guess it depends on what repentance means to you. To a middle age monk it meant walking on his knees on broken glass and flogging himself with a whip. To me it simply means to change my mind,to change direction. By my definition I don't see how a person would have faith without repentance. I think maybe it meant the same to Jesus. Remember in Luke 19 when Zacchaeus changed his mind about how he had been collecting taxes and "repented". Jesus said Salvation had come to him.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I'll just grab a couple here since you put up so many
Matthew 19:16-21: "And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”
Follow me is the definitive phrase denoting salvation. The giving to the poor results in having treasure in heaven. Christians will be rewarded in heaven according to their good works. The works don't save them, only faith (following him) does that. James, which was written to saved Christians, is all about doing good works to earn those rewards.
Rev 20:13 is out of context. Here's the rest of it:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Some of them are in the book of life. They got in that book by faith in Christ and are judged (rewarded) accordingly.
About that book of life...Here's more on it.
Re 20:15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Re 21:27 (speaking of the great city of God) Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Who among us is impure or has never done anything shameful or deceitful? How do we get our names added to the book? By faith in Christ and being saved at the cross. Our impure deeds must be erased by his blood. There's nothing we can do ourselves to erase those sins.
All the rest of those verses are similar. God will reward those who have arrived in heaven according to their deeds. But first, they have to get there through faith.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Is repentance a work? Is repentance a condition of salvation, just like faith? It goes right back to the verses I quoted earlier: Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. You can say that saying Jesus is Lord is a work if you want to, but the Bible doesn't . It separates faith from works here: Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no-one can boast.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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Campfire Outfitter
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. . . We see here that Abraham wasn't blessed because of his action, as in action plus faith equals blessing. Abraham was blessed because of his faith,and his action was a sign and seal which showed his faith.
In other words Abraham was accounted righteous because of his faith,before his action which showed his faith. So I believe I "hear" you saying that faith with out works (of obedience to God's commands) is dead? Heb 11:8 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Yes,you could say that. James certainly did. I prefer to say it a different way though because the statement that faith without works works is dead sometimes gives someone the idea that faith is not really faith until you add works to it. I don't like that idea because sometimes works take time. It's where people get the idea that a man could honestly and with all his heart seek salvation from Jesus yet fail to do the works,like baptism and not be saved. Maybe the man died before he could be baptized in water. It doesn't matter. I've dealt with those kinds of beliefs ever since I got saved. I prefer to say it in this way: A faith that is alive will surly produce works. Just like a healthy branch,connected to the vine,will produce fruit. A man that is saved should want to be water baptized, but I see that it is rather the baptism into Christ which saves. Yes, we must be baptized,which is just a word which means immersed,in Christ to be saved. The only way anyone is judged worthy is to become one with Christ. (to become baptized"immersed" into Christ.) 1 Cor.6:17 He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit. Perhaps you should look just a short ways up in that same chapter: 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. A person who is born again is none of those things.His righteousness is of faith and not of works. If a Christian commits a sin,it doesn't make him a sinner,speaking of the Spirit. If that were the case,a Christian would need be saved again every time he sinned and he would constantly be in and out,in and out. In fact the qualification for righteousness is so high he could never stay in the position of salvation,if it was based on his actions. The only way he could be saved would be to die the very second after being born again,before he had time to commit another sin. Righteousness only comes by oneness in the Spirit with Christ.It's not based on your deeds,but only on your faith in Jesus. Notwithstanding,a man with faith in Christ wants to curb his deeds to please God,but his salvation is not based on his performance in that area. Think of it this way. Before a man received Christ, he did good deeds sometimes just based on being a decent human being. No matter how many good deeds he did ,without Christ none of those good deeds could bring salvation. So then why does he now think that with Christ a bad deed will effect his Spirit and bring damnation, even though a good deed couldn't effect his spirit, and bring salvation?
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Is repentance a work? Is repentance a condition of salvation, just like faith? I guess it depends on what repentance means to you. To a middle age monk it meant walking on his knees on broken glass and flogging himself with a whip. To me it simply means to change my mind,to change direction. By my definition I don't see how a person would have faith without repentance. I think maybe it meant the same to Jesus. Remember in Luke 19 when Zacchaeus changed his mind about how he had been collecting taxes and "repented". Jesus said Salvation had come to him. The definition of repentance includes obedience, not just a "change of mind." Mt 21:28-31 28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first.
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Is repentance a work? Is repentance a condition of salvation, just like faith? I guess it depends on what repentance means to you. To a middle age monk it meant walking on his knees on broken glass and flogging himself with a whip. To me it simply means to change my mind,to change direction. By my definition I don't see how a person would have faith without repentance. I think maybe it meant the same to Jesus. Remember in Luke 19 when Zacchaeus changed his mind about how he had been collecting taxes and "repented". Jesus said Salvation had come to him. The definition of repentance includes obedience, not just a "change of mind." Mt 21:28-31 28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Yes, but I would say to that, who has really changed their mind if they won't act on it? Go right back to Abraham being righteous in uncircumcision,or in other words righteous as soon as he received the promise by faith. Then the action of circumcision came as a result of his believing. It was not that he didn't become righteous until he obeyed by becoming circumcised.The scripture very clearly makes a point to tell you that he was righteous before his action of faith for this very reason.
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Campfire Tracker
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Is repentance a work? Is repentance a condition of salvation, just like faith? I think that repentance is a symptom of genuine salvation which comes through faith. You have to believe first. A person who does not believe has no reason to repent. I would agree that repentance is a work. This faith and works thing has been beat to death for 2000 years. They go hand in hand. If you "identify" as a Christian, but still desire to steal, commit adultery, hurt people, all that kind of stuff something is wrong. You need to get it fixed. On the other hand if you Identify as a Christian and do your good works only as an insurance policy against hell then your good works are "dead" because they are not of faith but fear. You need to get that fixed. The way you get either one fixed is to walk in Love.
Last edited by RJY66; 12/16/17.
"Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants". --- William Penn
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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A person who is born again is none of those things.His righteousness is of faith and not of works. If a Christian commits a sin,it doesn't make him a sinner,speaking of the Spirit. If that were the case,a Christian would need be saved again every time he sinned and he would constantly be in and out,in and out. In fact the qualification for righteousness is so high he could never stay in the position of salvation,if it was based on his actions. The only way he could be saved would be to die the very second after being born again,before he had time to commit another sin. I used to work with a guy who went to a pentacostal church that taught just that. They have services every day of the week so you go get saved again and again. I asked him what happened if you got saved, then drove out of the parking lot, ran a stop sign and got killed by a truck. You just sinned by running the stop sign only 10 minutes after you got saved. Do you go to hell? He couldn't answer. 1Jo 3:9 No-one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This isn't saying we can't sin. It means that our sin is instantly removed from us. We're forgiven for it all. Ro 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! we are to do our best to avoid sinning but we all know it's impossible to totally avoid. We're human.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A person who is born again is none of those things.His righteousness is of faith and not of works. If a Christian commits a sin,it doesn't make him a sinner,speaking of the Spirit. If that were the case,a Christian would need be saved again every time he sinned and he would constantly be in and out,in and out. In fact the qualification for righteousness is so high he could never stay in the position of salvation,if it was based on his actions. The only way he could be saved would be to die the very second after being born again,before he had time to commit another sin. I used to work with a guy who went to a pentacostal church that taught just that. They have services every day of the week so you go get saved again and again. I asked him what happened if you got saved, then drove out of the parking lot, ran a stop sign and got killed by a truck. You just sinned by running the stop sign only 10 minutes after you got saved. Do you go to hell? He couldn't answer. Bingo. Hitler accepts Christ just before he pulled the trigger. Does he go to Heaven for accepting Christ, or not for his bad "work" after accepting him? RC's example is just as good. Add in the Catholic vision of repentance and you can understand why old ladies in their final years are so buy going to confession and repenting every day they have no time to live out the finale of their lives.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Hitler could have been forgiven just like any of us. Most likely he wasn't, but that was his decision. Jesus wanted him to repent. God doesn't want ANYONE to fry, not even Hitler or Stalin.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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Campfire Regular
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Is repentance necessary for salvation?
It is the "first word of the gospel".
John the Baptizer preached it, Paul preached it, Peter preached it as being necessary.
Jesus's own words were "Repent or you will perish."
I'd say that it must be absolutely necessary.
It is a change of the mind.
It is a change of the will.
It is a change of the heart.
It is a change of allegiance.
It is a change of ownership (from Satan to Jesus)
It is part of the complete transformation called sanctification that the Holy Spirit begins when we yield ourselves to Christ. Jesus cannot or, at least, He will not really transform you against your will. He might need to do an attitude adjustment first so that you will yield.
Will we be perfect? no.
Will we "continue to sin"? yes! unfortunately, we will. "If one says they have no sin, they are a liar and the truth is not in them."
But, we can longer willfully sin without consequences.
We cannot be saved unless Jesus is our Savior. We cannot repent without believing. We cannot confess Jesus as Lord without repenting. Jesus will not be our Savior unless He is also our Lord. We cannot be saved unless we repent.
So, the necessary ingredients of salvation are:
We must believe (trust in Christ as Savior, not mere head knowledge.)
We must repent of our sins and "change directions on the Roads of Life."
We must confess Jesus as Lord.
Salvation is like a 3-legged table. The 3 legs are Faith, repentance, and Lordship. It won't stand without all 3.
Last edited by rphguy; 12/17/17.
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Campfire Ranger
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So God can be killed, cool. Just because your knowledge of the Bible is pathetically lacking severely Look up St. John 10:17-18 Those red letters would be Jesus’s own words just in case you didn’t know.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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And a dog can chase it's tail.... Going in circles, getting nowhere...
I've read along with you guys. I see those who can quote Scripture and those who have an understand of what it means.
It sorta reminds me of the arguments back in Jesus' day when He was confronted by the Sadducees, Scribes and Pharacees, skeptics quoting scripture, trying to trap and discredit Him and His ministry. He always overcame by the power of His Word.
And, I've read some spiritually enlightening posts, a mixed bag for sure.
The Bible is a spiritual book. For it to speak to you, you gotta take something to the book. It's a two way street.
DF
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So God can be killed, cool. Just because your knowledge of the Bible is pathetically lacking severely Look up St. John 10:17-18 Those red letters would be Jesus’s own words just in case you didn’t know. I find it interesting that you not only claim to know he existed, but to know what he actually said. Until you can offer sufficient evidence for the former, we are in no position to discuss the latter.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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So God can be killed, cool. Just because your knowledge of the Bible is pathetically lacking severely Look up St. John 10:17-18 Those red letters would be Jesus’s own words just in case you didn’t know. But I can read you like a fugging book.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Campfire Regular
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To say that God can be killed is wrong.
They killed the physical body of Jesus, but He was still God and still very much alive.
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