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Back to the eternal hell debate.
Definition of Eternal
e·ter·nal
əˈtərn(ə)l/Submit
adjective
lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
Matthew 25:41King James Version (KJV)
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Proving hell is not eternal as it was “prepared” or created.
Also it states everlasting not eternal if it meant eternal it explicitly would have said eternal as it does in other versus concerning the ones who will abide with Him.
Cannot possibly be eternal again as there is only one eternal form = God.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Antelope,
I am going to do some research on this-on your assertions concerning the authorship of the Gospels and get back with you.
Best,
Tim Fair enough! Everything I've stated is very mainstream among Biblical Scholars, but don't believe me, do your own research!
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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I gave my reference at the time, which you chose to ignore.
It indicates God the Father made the universe through the Son, which would make him a conduit
of the Fathers Work.
Hebrews 1:2
"but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things,
and through whom also he made the universe.
I'm not ignoring anything but your perversion of scripture. Jesus Christ is not a lesser in anyway, HE is fully God. Paul acknowledges Christ as GOD....Titus 2:13 "looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great GOD and Savior JESUS CHRIST. JESUS also took the name of God revealed to Moses in the burning bush at Exodus 3:14 (“I AM”) and applied it to Himself in John 8:58. In John 5:18, Jesus claimed to be “equal with God.” In John 10:33, He made Himself “out to be God.” THOMAS, one of the twelve disciples, called Jesus: “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28) ISAIAH, the Old Testament prophet, said that the coming Messiah would be God. Isaiah 9:6 says, “For unto us a Child [a reference to His humanity] is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God [a reference to His deity], Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” GOD the Father called Jesus “God.” Hebrews 1:8 says, “But to the Son He [God the Father] says: ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.’” [Quoting Psalm 45:6-7]
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Jesus Christ is not a lesser in anyway, HE is fully God.
Actually, early on that was hotly debated. Some sects claimed he was human, so he was half man, half God. One sect believed he was a human vessel born through normal processes but possessed by the holy spirit. This claim is not in any way as clear as you believe.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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This claim is not in any way as clear as you believe. And you base your own opinion on, what? I have based everything on God's Word, what scripture says overwhelmingly about Christ being God. What about Paul the Apostle was he not clear? Paul acknowledges Christ as GOD....Titus 2:13 "looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great GOD and Savior JESUS CHRIST. JOHN 14:28 ~ JESUS SAYS THE FATHER IS "GREATER" Jesus here is speaking to His disciples on the eve of His crucifixion… John 14:28 “You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.” Jesus says right here that his Father is “greater” than him (Jn. 14:28). You keep saying Jesus is equal in nature with the Father; but that contradicts what Jesus himself said!” In the original Greek. The Greek word for “greater” in John 14:28 is the word meizon. This word is a quantitative term, not a qualitative term. – A quantitative term describes quantities, levels, positions, etc. – A qualitative term describes qualities, character, nature. When I say, “The amount of water in this glass is greater than the water in that glass,” I’m speaking quantitatively. I’m not saying that the water in this glass is better than the water in that glass. When Jesus spoke of His Father being “greater” than Him (John 14:28), He was speaking quantitatively (as the word meizon implies). Jesus was referring to His Father’s position, not His nature. He was not saying His Father was better than Him or more worthy of worship. That would contradict what the Bible says elsewhere. For instance, notice what Hebrews 1:3 says. Speaking of Jesus, it says: Hebrews 1:3 “He [Jesus] is the radiance of His glory [God the Father’s] and the exact representation of His nature." Jesus is absolutely equal in nature to God the Father. But in John 14:28, while Jesus was here on the Earth having “emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant” (Phil. 2:7), having been made for “a little while lower than the angels” (Heb. 2:9), it was completely appropriate to speak of His Father being greater than Him (positionally). He was not saying that the Father was better than Him in character or in nature. Children are absolutely equal in nature with their parents (we’re all humans). But children can rightly speak of their parents holding a higher office. The fact that the parents are greater in their position of authority does nothing to negate the fact that their children are perfectly equal to them in nature. And the same is true with Jesus’ statement there in John 14:28. When it comes to Jesus and the Father’s nature, Jesus said... John 10:30 “I and the Father are one." They are so identical in nature, Jesus told Philip in John 14:9... John 14:9 “He who has seen Me has seen the Father.”
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Some sects claimed he was human, so he was half man, half God. Those are cults btw, not sects.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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This claim is not in any way as clear as you believe. And you base your own opinion on, what? I have based everything on God's Word, what scripture says overwhelmingly about Christ being God. What about Paul the Apostle was he not clear? Paul acknowledges Christ as GOD....Titus 2:13 "looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great GOD and Savior JESUS CHRIST. JOHN 14:28 ~ JESUS SAYS THE FATHER IS "GREATER" Jesus here is speaking to His disciples on the eve of His crucifixion… John 14:28 “You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.” Jehovah Witness: “Look at that Charlie! Jesus says right here that his Father is “greater” than him (Jn. 14:28). You keep saying Jesus is equal in nature with the Father; but that contradicts what Jesus himself said!” Well, once again we need to look a bit more closely at the word in question in the original Greek. The Greek word for “greater” in John 14:28 is the word meizon. This word is a quantitative term, not a qualitative term. Let me explain. – A quantitative term describes quantities, levels, positions, etc. – A qualitative term describes qualities, character, nature. When I say, “The amount of water in this glass is greater than the water in that glass,” I’m speaking quantitatively. I’m not saying that the water in this glass is better than the water in that glass. When Jesus spoke of His Father being “greater” than Him (John 14:28), He was speaking quantitatively (as the word meizon implies). Jesus was referring to His Father’s position, not His nature. He was not saying His Father was better than Him or more worthy of worship. That would contradict what the Bible says elsewhere. For instance, notice what Hebrews 1:3 says. Speaking of Jesus, it says: Hebrews 1:3 “He [Jesus] is the radiance of His glory [God the Father’s] and the exact representation of His nature." Jesus is absolutely equal in nature to God the Father. But in John 14:28, while Jesus was here on the Earth having “emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant” (Phil. 2:7), having been made for “a little while lower than the angels” (Heb. 2:9), it was completely appropriate to speak of His Father being greater than Him (positionally). He was not saying that the Father was better than Him in character or in nature. Here’s an analogy that might help. The President is greater than us in position of authority. But in nature he is absolutely equal with us, isn’t he? We are all 100% homosapien. Here’s another analogy. Children are absolutely equal in nature with their parents (we’re all humans). But children can rightly speak of their parents holding a higher office. The fact that the parents are greater in their position of authority does nothing to negate the fact that their children are perfectly equal to them in nature. And the same is true with Jesus’ statement there in John 14:28. When it comes to Jesus and the Father’s nature, Jesus said... John 10:30 “I and the Father are one." They are so identical in nature, Jesus told Philip in John 14:9... John 14:9 “He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” Scholarship. Perhaps you would like to educate yourself on the subject. Here's a decent primer for the layman: https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christi...keywords=lost+christianities+bart+ehrman
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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NO, I have enough scholarship by accepting what the Word of God says.
Obviously you believe and take the word of man over the Word of God.
I'm good, thank you.
Please tell me, what did Paul the Apostle who wrote most of the N.T. mean when he said this.. "Titus 2:13 "looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great GOD and Savior JESUS CHRIST."
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If you cannot accept God's Word as the final authority. Then we have nothing to talk about.
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The enduring principles that have placed this nation into a position of power, as given us by the Almighty, are disappearing. To remove, or dismiss the foundation as prepared by our 'founding fathers', as given to them by One unseen, and to exploit, and set into place false principles; such as the DOMA act, will only further confuse, and bring discord to this nation. There is dissent in the upper chambers regarding such acts as moving in the wrong direction; i.e. (Section 3). These inconsistent, changeable laws are being compelled by worldly, convoluted, and reprobate minds; then setting such statutes as common law. The law is defined as 'a rule of conduct having divine origin'. This is truly at the heart of the matter, to be determined in the coming days. Either follow the Light, or wallow in the way of the broad road, as many have been accustomed to.
We certainly are in harms way, when no one will step to the forefront, to address the cornerstone, as set in place by One.
The U.S. has become a perverted, immoral nation in a steady state of decay. To implement laws which are contrary to the Divine Laws given us by One, will be a direct conviction to anyone adhering to false balances. To negate the true principles, as set forth by Elohim, and institute the branch of sin to be grafted into the root will destroy this earth. Drunkenness has gained support, as to be established in a position which is considered commonplace. This state of erosion is no longer progressive, but has gained momentum, in which the government has intertwined into fidelity; by newly enacted laws, as that being true. However, no such honor shall be found upon implementing false principles upon the foundation of truth set forth by One. To supplant deceitfulness, and to define an illusion as being true, is merely providing the appearance of false traits.
A consistent way of trying to bring about change, by implementing artificial deception, to be construed as genuine, is contrary to the Laws of Elohim. To deny, or to negate any laws, based upon the Divine Foundation, or to add to the Divine Law, shall serve as the stone which returned upon us. There shall surely be more severe judgments destined for any tribe, or nation, overturning the tables of truth. ©
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If you cannot accept God's Word as the final authority. Then we have nothing to talk about. I accept nothing as an authority until there's sufficient reason to do so. Your god has not met his burden of proof. NO, I have enough scholarship by accepting what the Word of God says.
Obviously you believe and take the word of man over the Word of God.
I'm good, thank you.
Please tell me, what did Paul the Apostle who wrote most of the N.T. mean when he said this.. "Titus 2:13 "looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great GOD and Savior JESUS CHRIST."
Except Paul didn't write Titus. Paul didn't write any of the Pastoral, Titus, 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Except Paul didn't write Titus.
Paul didn't write any of the Pastoral, Titus, 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy. He, Paul, claims he did. False scholarship will claim what you believe. Your god has not met his burden of proof. My God is alive and well and rules the universe. He declares Himself. I choose to receive what He says.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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My God is alive and well and rules the universe. Lets hear your best evidence.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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In the beginning there was the Word (the Word is Jesus)....Jesus is God. God and Jesus are one.
This! Nice assertion without evidence. Antelope, The Bible is quite sufficient evidence, if you approach it without bias and with an open-mind. It is the best selling book in history for reason. I realize that you are a skeptic, and I respect that. Also, I appreciate your respect to others on this thread-I'm not much of an apologist, or skilled in debate-but I hope you will be respectful with me just the same.
I'd be happy to join you in a civil debate.
Perhaps this is where you and I differ,
I will not accept a source making extraordinary claims just on the word of the writer. I'm especially skeptical of anonymous sources. One of the great difficulties of the texts we know as the 4 Gospels is they are all anonymous. They were NOT written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and we have no signed original copies (the preceding quote of course being from John, the last, and most different of the Gospels) . The oldest actual fragment we have of any gosphel (Papyrus P52) is likely dated to the 3rd century, and no complete manuscripts dated before the 4th century. As a result, there's significant room for doubt, especially when you consider the extraordinary nature of the claims being made. [/quote]Iraneus was a student of Polycarp. John was the mentor of Polycarp. Iraneus asserts that John wrote the Gospel of John.
Last edited by rphguy; 12/20/17.
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Interesting debate. The Book of John seems to be taken at face value by many. Sorta like there were no other "Book of " written then that countered what the 4 Gospels taught. The Protestant Churches hang their entire faith and belief on the 4 Gospels, especially John, while other Christian Churches such as many Orthodox Churches do not. So who is right????? I have an idea but I'm not sticking my neck into that noose. LOL Some of the Rabbinical Jews teach that Paul was made up by the Rabbi Jews and sold to the Christian churches, heck if I know how much truth is in that............many teach that John was the second witness against Jesus and paid the price for his treason in which John seems to admit that in his book. There is one thing I do know, communism, like Lucifer, after many years of failure figured out that you catch more Flies with honey and less with [bleep], so, they changed their tactics and embrace Christianity, are pro family, and on and on. Lucifer also embraces Christianity knowing that a glass of pure water with one drop of poison in it contaminates the whole glass. One group of Christians teach that Thomas was correct while another group teaches that John is. One is contaminated. Who or whom, becomes the question and in my opinion ( for what its worth) this is the million dollar question. One is the broad path, the other the narrow. Many will want to argue that this is all just rubbish and such and such said this in the Bible. Fine. Believe what you will. I prefer that the box I live in has plenty of huge windows, no door, and no roof. I want to be furnished with all of the writings/teachings, especially the original texts that argue both sides of the debate so that I can make up my own mind what is true and what is tainted. Discernment is one of the gifts the Holy Spirit gives you. There are lots of primrose paths being taught and preached as the truth....................Lucifer was the Angel Light and the most "Subtle" so it would behoove us to pay an enormous amount of attention to that word "subtle" and "Angel of Light" and less to "the Bible says this" or my " Teacher in seminary school" said this. Carry on. 
Last edited by K22; 12/20/17.
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k22, your perspective certainly sheds light on the overall subject. there's the book of enoch, while it does exist, it's not widely accepted by the rank & file. other books too. it comes down to belief. and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Romans 1:18-20
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18) The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19) since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20) For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
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k22, your perspective certainly sheds light on the overall subject. there's the book of enoch, while it does exist, it's not widely accepted by the rank & file. other books too. it comes down to belief. and there's nothing wrong with that. Thanks Gus. That is all I'm trying to do. I do agree with you 100% concerning Enoch. Not trying to sound vain, but I have all of the apocrypha books and have studied them, some more than others, I'm human. LOL Lots of talk about the Gospels and Paul on here, so who has read the apocrypha books some of the Gospel writers wrote? The Acts of Paul for starters or maybe the Apocrypha of Peter. There's always the Book of Thomas which was important to those Christians in what is now India/Turkey, Russia, a lot of the Celts, some of the Scandinavian countries also. The Book of Enoch that Gus mentioned maybe one of the most important books in my opinion. That and the Book of Jasher. Want to know what really happened before the flood, what is coming in the last days, read Enoch. He wrote the book strictly for those living in the last days. He says so in his first paragraph of the book. Enoch was one of a very small group who got out of here alive. Never tasted death. That makes him kind of special I would think. Jesus quoted Enoch around ten times with Jude quoting him 1 time. Who was the first to call Jesus the "son of man" ? Enoch. It looks to me like Christians would rather wrestle with flesh and blood ignoring completely the principalities, the rulers of darkness of THIS WORLD, becoming oblivious to spiritual wickedness in high places. If that isn't true, then Ephesians 6:12 is not being fully interpretatived and understood. If it was, I doubt if the conversation/debate in this thread wouldn't be going.
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Some sects claimed he was human, so he was half man, half God. Those are cults btw, not sects. I have to agree. And, though I am willing to hear a skeptic's view as concerns scripture-scripture is the final authority.
"For joy of knowing what may not be known we take the golden road to Samarkand."
James Elroy Flecker
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God has given us his word via the Holy Spirit who led men to write it. Over a number of years, the Spirit slowly revealed what God wanted in the final product. Now we need to talk about faith. We're saved by faith and we have his word by faith. Non-believers will poo poo the idea and find all kinds of reasons to reject the word or large parts of it, but we faithful know that God is true. We will stand by the Bible knowing that God didn't deceive us and if we follow his commands we will be richly rewarded in heaven. Non-believers can scoff all they want to but it will make no difference to those who know the truth and have accepted the Lord's forgiveness. They'll know the truth in the end but it will be too late.
Paul, in particular, is rejected by many. However, he was hand picked by Jesus specifically to carry the word to the gentile world. He was highly educated and prepared for the job assigned to him by Jesus in that confrontation on the road to Damascus. Paul then went into the desert for 3 years (the same length of time that the disciples were with Jesus), and was taught by a resurrected Lord. By doing this, he was qualified to take the title of apostle along with the original disciples. He returned to public view as a fireball for the Lord.
Many hate Paul because he tells them what they don't want to hear. He speaks the truth and it hurts and instills fear in those who reject the Lord's commandments.
The Book of Enoch was mentioned. That was a Jewish book but even the Jews have rejected it as mostly false. It's claimed that it was written before the flood but parts have been found have been written less than 300 years before Christ, some parts less than 100 years. It contains numerous errors and has no part in scripture. It might have some historical value but that's all.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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