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I suppose that's where I would differ from Catholic doctrine. I take it that the keys to the kingdom of Heaven are given to all believers and all believers have the ability to bind or loose,that power coming from the Holy Spirit that lives within every believer. Jesus did not exclusively speak of binding and loosening,and authority to Peter alone on that one occasion in John 20. Jesus also spoke of binding and loosening and authority, speaking of all believers in Matthew 18. He goes so far as to say that anywhere 2 or 3 are gathered in his name ,he is there with them.

Well...... yeah....... as long as one of the two or three is a priest.

Right, Tyrone?

Why do you persist in deeming Heavenly reward received from God as mere fluff and squat value?

Gods ask that one commit to valued works, works that will then be tested/evaluated by God
and rewarded by God accordingly...Why would God bother to go to such efforts if its all only worth 'squat'.?

Scripture does not take your devalued stance, rather it puts high value on heavenly reward from God...

Matthew 5:12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven:...




Scripture indicates that a persons works are capable of not being in vain and thus worthy of reward from God.

1 Corinthians 3:13-14

13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire,
and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.


1 Corinthians 15:58

Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord,
knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.


! Corinthians 3:8-9
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward
according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.


matthew 16:27

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward
every man according to his works.

I think it's important to look at this in context. Paul began this discussion referring to how there was division between believers because they were saying some were of Apollos and some of Paul. Paul explains how we are labors together with God and refers to believers as God's building. Paul speaks of how he labored to build that building but he acknowledges that the foundation is Christ and not himself or Apollos. I would say that the rest is speaking of how anyone would help the Body of Christ. I think it's important to understand that Paul is speaking of ministry and the service of the body of Christ.

Concerning our rewards in Heaven,I will be happy and honored to receive any reward,but I don't think it's profitable to take the attitude that what I do,I do because I want to earn a reward in Heaven. I don't think that's even an attitude that would lead to reward. The thing I would caution against for any believer would be to have too much "I" and "my" in their thinking or vocabulary. There should not be an attitude of I am going to work hard to get MY reward. In so doing a person could completely loose track of why he was doing anything for God to begin with,and it become instead a selfish endeavor. In such a case I would think his addition would only burn away.

Paul says this also in the same place as rewards are spoken of.
1 Corinthians 3:21-23King James Version (KJV)

21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;

22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.


So then,concerning rewards,I won't be too concerned about them. It all belongs to God and he will do what he wants. If I receive a reward,I will be overjoyed,but I won't work for it now lest I fall into the trap of thinking of myself more highly than I should.

Let's back up, and be honest about what you have been taught about a works based theology.

1) "For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER all we can do. (2nd Nephi 25:23)
2) 'No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the CONSENT OF Joseph Smith." Brigham Young Journal of discourse Vol 7, pg 284)
3)"...the servants gift to us as not necessarily limited in time to 'after' all we can do. We may receive his grace before, durring, and after the time when we expend our OWN EFFORTS." Bruce McConkie

Either you don't know your own doctrine very well concerning salvation by works, or you're not shooting straight with me.

"We do not worship the son, and we do not worship the Holy spirit. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah...Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator." (Bruce R McConkie, First council of the seventy)

This is why you cannot comprehend what I have been saying.

A doctrine that bases it's self on works, a salvation that basis it's self on "self and then maybe grace," a belief that Joseph Smith determines ultimately who will enter instead of God, a doctrine that even though it knows what scripture says about the diety of Christ, refuses to worship Him as Elohim, one in, with, and is God, not just a mere founation but the Lord of Lords God Himself, a doctrine that reduces Him as offspring and the brother of satan...

Shall I go on..?

Starman, the truth will set you free to comprehend why I choose to sit on his lap vs running the "Temple" but until you desire THE TRUTH which is and who is Jesus, you'll never see it.

Hey RH, I just ran across this. Are you a follower of Joseph Prince?
This is an interesting article from a Protestant perspective which goes over the implications of what I call "one sacrifice for everything".
http://www.johnhamelministries.org/Hyper_Grace_Dangerous_Error.htm

Take care,
Ty

Tyrone,
Good morning buddy. Check out Brennan Manning live at Woodcrest youtube, about 4 minutes long.

Most likely that is not so. I've seen no evidence that Starman is a Mormon, so THAT is likely why he cannot comprehend, or more likely accept/believe, what you are saying. Neither do I.

Why does that escape you, particularly when asking for honesty you appear not to care to share?

As far as going on, I believe it would depend on with what? Mormon theology not accepted or believed by Protestant Christians? To what avail? Proselytization? Not an appropriate venue for any hope at success, is it? Information? Appreciated when asked for, but an imposed annoyance past that.

Your truth is different than mine and Starman's. He has a very good handle on his theology. Why attempt to argue your's when the two are significantly dissimilar? Instead, for the sake of discussion rather than concussion, find similarities to visit about, leaving the opposing items for sharing among like minds.

Good afternoon my friend. I'll look at your link and try to answer any questions it brings up as soon as I have a little more time. Been a little busy here lately with some busted water lines and the resulting flooding of a rec room.

Hey, thanks 358.
That's basically good stuff. Indeed, God does love you right here, right now, exactly as you are. Everyone should be told that. Everyone should know that.

But to stop there, to conflate devotion with legalism, is extremely dangerous and judgemental. The realization of God's love should start devotion. If it doesn't, it is worthless, as worthless as faithlessly going through the motions. But is there anything wrong with starting with devotion and coming to the realization of God's love? After all, isn't that the case with everyone born into faith?

It is as easy to see that devotion that never develops into faith is worthless as it is to see that faith that never develops into devotion is worthless too.

Ricky,

I've sent you a pm and would be happy to discuss things with you, publicly or privately. Please realize I am quite busy today, but will be available (hopefully) this evening, Maui time.

Flr the sake of you having clearity, I'd also like to know what question(s) you think that I've not answered honestly.?

Offer accepted, Scott. We'll visit tonight.

I believe it's written all who hang on a tree shall be cursed and the time frame is they should not be allowed to hang there is overnight and the specific form of execution is hanging not crucifixion. But many so extrapolate, so go for it.

Go back a step. John the Baptist had a large number of followers. He told them directly that Jesus was the one they needed to follow. He wasn't worthy to even untie Jesus' sandals. Even so, God found it necessary to remove John so Jesus could move to his rightful place at the front. People were choosing between John the man and Jesus, the one they thought was a man at the time.

AS I'm sure he can provide volumes of reasons to believe in Him that most would agree with, but just not you. So it is not correct to say he can provide no good reason to believe. He can, for most. Just not you. Don't be so myopic and self-centered.

It appears you are on a mission to eradicate all faith in the world, but you are kicking against the goads and will not win. Truth will win and has. You just refuse to acknowledge that, too.

all we have dealt with so far is the prelude to the Story, right? i mean, things that have happened in the past? what about now?

and the future? so much to talk about, and so little time to engage in deep conversation.

i believe that "Savior, Christos (christ), & Messiah" all mean essentially the same?

but, on the other hand, maybe timing is everything, or nearly so.

In many cases we are seeing the predictions made in the distant past come to be in the present. There really needs to be nothing more fulfilled for the Lord to return. But His ways are not our ways, and neither is His timing.

WTF?...I am not Mormon, do not read and have not read the Book of Mormon,...but for some reason you keep rattling on
about Joe Smith as if its my doctrine.



Thanks RickyD, 358wsm is on his own obscure wild tangent and seems happy there drawing false conclusions about others.
.. not long ago I was also accused of being a Jehovas Witness and Seventh Day Adventist.....

I had been wondering what kind of Spirit was operating behind Starmans "theology" (I use the term losely) and what kind of horse $hit the guy would have to have swallowed in order to assume someone was "selfish" simply because they would choose close intimacy (sitting upon the lap of my Father) over any "reward" which might come.
To add to my confusion, I was dealing with a SPIRIT that didn't accept Jesus as a Diety and Equal to the Father, and a "mere" foundation upon which works (puffy knowledge) could be built.

Because I have not rubbed shoulders with Starman, I miss identified the Spirit behid his deception, and because Mormons share these similarities I wrongly assumed he was in the Mormon camp. He is NOT.!

My apologies to the Mornons for counting him in your camp, this is a snake of a different color.


When I went back and found his posts on the "Consider this about Jesus" thread it all became clear.
Not only does he mention the Gnostic gospels in that thread, he exposes himself as a Gnostic.

The god of the Gnostic is "self and knowledge."
It's the same Spirit that hisssses... " Has God really said..." As old as the serpent himself.

One reason I built the 358 WSM, was that sometimes when Moose hunting, even when hitting close to my mark, a follow up is required fron extreme angles. I cant think of a more extreme angle, than the one Starman has chosen to take. Although my first shot was close, my follow up has brought Ol' Slew Foot to a place where I now have a handle on him.

BEWARE to those who converse with Starman, realize that you are speaking to a very deceptive Spirit who knows nothing about intimacy with God (Elohim, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Realize that you are not engaging with a "believer" of any sort, but a deceptive Spirit that will attempt to erode the Truth. That Truth is Jesus. The Spirit in operation seeks to steal, kill, and destroy you in you in the same way he decieved man in the beginning. This is done subtly with the underling hisssss..."Has God really said what He has said to you.?" After all this is a "Satan" thread, so it's no surprise he would show up.