Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mule Deer - .338win question

beretzs,

Wouldn't the same process continue working if you used BBC bullets in the 338? Even bigger expansion with adequate penetration messing up even more of the insides?

Heck yeah it would be. So far I haven't had the opportunity to run the 225 BBC's into an elk from my 338, but maybe this year I will get it done. The ones I have tested have darned near expanded to .900". I have to think those would shut stuff down in a hurry.

I was just saying that comparing how a regular 338 bullet that expands to .600"-.650" or so, (like a Partition or Accubond) won't show me too much different than a 150/175 grain Bitterroot or similar run at nearly the same speeds that expands to .700-.800"ish. The 175 BBC is a bad SOB out of the Mashburn for my use..

I don't find owning a 338 WM "wrong" - I've had five of them. What I find interesting is the contorted arguments some 338 owners will offer to convince others (it's really about convincing themselves) that the 338 WM is a vastly superior cartridge to "lesser" rounds. That's just not been my experience with it. I'm all for whatever anyone wants to use, I just object to non-critical thinking.

I think the 338 is a dandy round, especially in a 22" bbl'd bolt rifle. I think that's its ideal barrel length and what helps separate it, in a useful sense, from other "magnums." A 22" bbl'd 338 WM, 7.75 lb to no more than 8lb (scoped, w sling and rounds), may just in fact be the "ultimate" elk rifle. I just don't happen to want to carry a rifle that heavy, nor deal with that level of recoil anymore, given my own experience with lighter recoiling rounds on elk.

That could very well be true.

In Montana we have a couple areas open to elk with a firearm during the bow season. One is a portion of the Bob Marshall. A friend of mine was rifle hunting there for elk two years ago and had a big old boar grizzly pop out of the brush and charge him. The first shot (7mm RM / 175 gr CoreLoc) went in the eye socket and entered the brain. That didn't even phase the bear and it kept coming until a few feet away was stopped with a chest shot. At that it fell momentarily, popped up and ran off to die in the brush. The shot to the eye socket and just circumnavigated the interior of the skull... it didn't exit.

Brad I totally agree, including the points about the 7.75lbs 338. My whole point was that among medium magnums the 338 isn’t a right or wrong choice but just another med Mag with its own set of pros and cons. I find it harder to justify carrying med mags these days anyways for the same reasons. The older I get the deadlier the 270 becomes

SM, I understood you for sure

Which reminds me; "the older I become the smarter Jack O'connor gets!"

John,

I am planning on shooting a wood bison this year. I have plenty of "big rifles" , but have a wild hair and want to take one with my 1895 win.

Planning on using my 30/40 Krag and hand loaded 200 or 220 Nosler partitons.


Lefty C

Well, here's some more stuff to chew on:

Got out my collection of recovered bullets yesterday and measured the expansion of .30's and .338's. I measured the widest and narrowest part of the "mushroom" on each bullet, then averaged them--unless there was some anomaly like a missing "petal" on a bullet like a Barnes X, Fail Safe or E-Tip. With those I measured only the widest expansion.

There were more .30's in the collection than .338's, though not by a vast amount. Their original weight ranged from 150 to 180 grains, and they were shot from .308's, .30-06's, .300 WSM's and .300 Winchester Magnums. The brands included Barnes TSX; Federal Deep Shok; Hornady Interbond; Norma Oryx, Nosler AccuBond, E-Tip and Partition; Speer Hot-Cor and Winchester Fail Safe. The animals ranged in size from around 250 to 800 pounds.The average expansion was .659 inch.

The .338's all were fired from .338 Wiinchester Magnums, and originally weighed 200 to 225 grains. They included the Hornady Interlock Spire Point; Nosler AccuBond, Ballistic Tip and Partition; and Winchester Fail Safe. The animals ranged in size from around 200 pounds to 1300. The average expansion was .620 inch.

However, the .30's included several Hornady Interbond and Norma Oryx bullets, which like the Bitterroot Bonded Core noted by Beretz expand widely. These averaged .735 expansion, and none of the .338 bullets were Interbonds or Orxyxes. With those eliminated from the list the .30's averaged .631 expansion, very similar to the .338's.

The smallest mushrooms in both calibers were .571 inch, both bullets taken from blue wildebeest, a 180 Fail Safe .30 caliber, and a 225 AccuBond .338.

Since caribou have entered the discussion, here's a another list of field results from mature bulls taken from northern Quebec, central Canada and Alaska. The rounded-off ranges are estimated or paced, the precise ranges lasered. Caribou often "lock up" when hit, much like elk, standing there as if semi-paralyzed, but then after standing there often make a short death run, with their head getting lower and lower until their nose plows into the ground. In the notes, this is called a "nose-plow." About half the bulls were taken by me, the others by my hunting companions as I watched:

.280 Remington, 139 Hornady Interlock Spire Point @ 3100, range 100 yards. At the shot the bull trotted off in a semi-circle about 30 yards across before falling. The bullet went through both lungs behind the shoulder, and the only reaction to impact was a tuft of hair flying into the air.

.280 Remington, 160 Nosler Partition @ 2900, range 350 yards. The first shot landed behind the shoulder, going through both lungs, and the bull took a few steps and stopped. A second shot landed a couple inches from the first, and the bull fell. One bullet exited, but the other was recovered from under the hide on the far side.

.338 Winchester Magnum, 200 Nosler Ballistic Tip @3000, range 200 yards. The bull stood turned slightly away, and the bullet landed just behind the shoulder. It went through both lungs and broke the leg on the far side, just above the big joint. The bull dropped straight down, landing on his belly with legs folded, ready for the trophy photo.

.338 Winchester Magnum, 210 Nosler Partition @ 2900, range 300 yards. The bullet landed just behind the shoulder of the broadside bull. The only reaction was running 50-some yards before collapsing.

.30-06, 180 Federal Deep Shok @ 2750, range 400 yards. The bullet landed just behind the shoulder with the bull turned very slightly toward me. He locked up, and just as I was about to shoot again, fell. The bullet went through both lungs and exited.

.30-06, another 180 Deep Shok, range 450 yards. The first shot landed just behind the shoulder, through both lung and the top of the heart. The bull locked up, a few seconds later nose-plowing the tundra.

7mm Rem. SAUM, 140 Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded @ 3150, range 225 yards. The first shot went through both lungs behind the shoulder, and the bull took a few steps and stopped. A second shot went through both shoulders, dropping him.

Same 7mm SAUM load, range 90 yards. The bull was walking toward me, head and neck held parall to the ground. The bullet entered the lower part of the chest, and the bull locked up, a few seconds later doing a nose-plow.

Same 7mm SAUM and load, range 250 yards. This bull had been previously shot twice with a .300 SAUM and 150-grain CLU bullets, which landed too far back due to a howling wind, around the rear of the ribcage--then was missed with a third shot. The bull took a few steps after each shot, then stopped. The 7mm SAUM bullet went through both shoulders, dropping the bull.

.270 Winchester, 150-grain Hornady Interlock Spire Point, range 369 yards. The bullet landed just behind the shoulder, and the bull trotted a little way, then slowed before dropping, a total of about 40 feet.

.308 Winchester, 150-grain Nosler AccuBond @ 2850 fps, range 35 yards. The bull walked up a hill to me, where I sat with my rifle. Eventually he noticed me sitting there, and stopped, head up. The bullet entered the "dimple" at the base of the throat, clipping the bottom of the spine before penetrating through the chest and into the abdomen, where it couldn't be found. The bull dropped right there.

.270 WSM, 140-grain Nosler AccuBond @ 3200 fps, range 200 yards. The bull was standing in some willows up to the middle of his chest, and the bullet went through the top of the shoulders and the spine, dropping him.

.270 Winchester, 130-grain Nosler Partition @ 3100 fps, range 100 yards. The bullet went through both shoulders and the spine, dropping the bull.

.270 Winchester, same rifle and load, range 200 yards. The bullet went through both lungs, broadside, and the bull trotted about 30 feet and fell.

.300 Winchester Magnum, 180-grain Nosler Partition @ 3000 fps, range 100 yards. The bullet hit the spine just behind the shoulders, and the bull dropped.

.22-250 Remington, 55-grain Winchester factory load, range 250 yards. The bullet landed just behind the shoulders and went through both lungs, exiting. The bull dropped right there.

.30-06, 180-grain Nosler Partition @ 2700 fps, range 150 yards. The bullet went through both lungs and the bull dropped right there.

.300 Winchester Magnum, 180-grain Nosler Partition @ 3000 fps, range 300 yards. The bullet landed just behind the shoulders, and the bull locked up for a few seconds before doing a nose-plow.

.30-06, 165-grain Nosler Partition @ 2900 fps, range 250 yards. The bullet hit the base of the neck and the bull dropped.

.30-06, 180-grain Nosler Partition @ 2700 fps, range 325 and 350 yards. The first bullet landed low, due to a faulty range estimation on the part of my hunting partner's guide, breaking a front leg above the knee. The bull gimped around away about 25 yards, then stopped broadside. The second shot went through the lungs behind the shoulders, and the bull staggered about 50 feet before falling.

.280 Remington, 140-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip @ 3000 fps, range 200 yards. The bullet landed in the middle of the neck as the bull stood facing away, dropping him right there.

300 Rem. SAUM, 150-grain Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded @ 3200 fps, range 212 yards. The bullet landed in the lungs behind the shoulder, and the bull staggered 30 yards before falling.

7mm Rem. SAUM, 160-grain Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded @ 2900 fps, range 138 yards. The bull stood quartering toward the hunter, and the bullet landed in the shoulder, then passed through both lungs. The bull dropped right there.

7mm Rem. SAUM, same load, range 219 yards. The bullet landed in the lungs behind the shoulder, and the bull trotted 40 yards before dropping.

.270 Winchester, 140-grain Barnes TSX @ 3000 fps, range 162 yards. The bullet went through the top of the lungs and the bottom of both scapulas. The bull staggered 10 yards before falling.

.308 Winchester, 150-grain Remington factory, 175 yards. The hunter shot the bull three times around the rear of the lungs before finally centering them. The bull moved a few yards after each of the first three shots, then fell at the fourth.

7mm Remington Magnum, 140-grain Nosler Partition @ 3250 fps, range 250 yards. The first shot landed too far back, around the rear of the ribs, and the bull walked around a little before stopping again. The hunter put a second bullet second bullet at the top of the shoulders, dropping the bull. (I'd previously watched him miss another bull three times at around 400 yards.)

Gunner, let me tell you right now, when the big 50 starts chopping car parts and walls down around Haji they put their heads down a little more than with the 5.56’s...
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You just gotta love the Ma Deuce! Of course, it can be pretty "rough" on the "meat"...:)

These two are my favorites, and they represent extremes in caliber at a really standard range. They also represent extremes in cup & core bullet fragility.

I'm more and more sold that the 22 cals, when used properly (well-placed shot with the proper bullet), are quite effective for most killing. I've also found that placing the shot well is really easy while burning small charges of powder in a light-handling hunting rifle that produces a mild report. I love watching bullet impact in the scope, which never happens for me on bigger animals unless I'm shooting a 22 CF.

Great information, John. As always, thank you for taking the time to engage in discussion and present detailed data.

At least three PHs I have talked with indicated they thought the 338 was a very good cartridge for a mixed plains game hunt. Several indicated it was enough for Buffalo and was a good second gun on a dangerous game safari. A father son PH team said the 338 was one of the best yet they did their hunting. culling and back up with 300 WMs clients had given them. They used Speer Hot Cores because they were the cheapest and worked. When they would come to the US they would buy exactly 49 lbs. of bullets to bring back to be within the maximum flight weight.

It is probably a case of seeing what you want to but it seems to me bullets over 250 grains do produce more of a reaction rifle and pistol. But I have had hogs shrug off hits with 260 .375 grain bullets like nothing happened ditto for 250 grain 45 Colt bullets. John Wooters and Jack Carter used their 7 RM as well as the 375 on Buffalo. With the TBBC they thought the 7 RM may have killed quicker even on Buffalo. I asked Jack what he thought was the maximum game for the 175 7mm and with no hesitation he said Eland. Even though I think there is a place for the medium bores I also subscribe to P O Ackley's claim that if you shot 100 deer with a 30-06 and a 100 with the 220 Swift the swift would produce more DRT reactions. So which is it? I dunno.

There was a survey done of African PHs and their recommendation for a "two gun" Safari (I think it might have been in a Boddington book). I believe the nod went to a 338/416 combo.

Pretty much my thoughts.... my buddy thought he would once... his boss hit a 4 inch tree in front of a good size black bear, killed the bear and hit another willow or such about same size after exiting the bear... alas, still no bullet recovered.
Run 210 in my 338-06 FWIW.

The only issue on dangerous game is when its all going right, its all ok, but when SHTF even my guide buddy on big bears says bigger is better. And this from him that carries a 338 win mag most of the time....until he feels that the situation may call for his 416.

You just gotta love the Ma Deuce! Of course, it can be pretty "rough" on the "meat"...:)
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LOL, yes, the recently de-limbed departeds would be better presented for funeral services standing out in the open flying a defiant FU finger rather than hiding behind, then having to eat all the chit the big material rifles blow through ya on the way by.

That sounds good, been thinking your old pre-64 300 H&H for Leopard and a Browning Safari 458 for Buff myself.

Sounds bout perfect, Brother!

You bet Jorge, gonna try to get on em hard and fast in Moz. then take Wifey on east to the beaches.

Pemba Beach hotel....

Jorge, I know that the 338/416 combo had the most votes from the PHs when Boddington conducted his first survey for his first "Safari Rifles" book since that is the exact combo I followed. Of course, I think that survey was done in the mid to late 80's when we hadn't yet had the premium bullet development firestorm that we've seen in the last few decades. However, I believe his results were a bit different when he came out with his second addition, "Safari Rifles II" which was published in 2009. I cannot remember the results exactly, but I do think the PHs moved away from the .338 and went toward the .300 magnums. I also can't remember if the .416s continued in the top spot for the heavy rifle or surrendered to the .375s.

I will submit what I have been told by three very experienced African PH’s.

#1 “I prefer that my buffalo hunters use a 338 rather than a 375 because, on average, their shots are more likely to be well placed. A 250 partition in the right place, dead buffalo.” He prefers a 416 for really thumping buffalo but said very few visiting hunters can shoot it well enough.

#2 “I use a 308 Win with Federal Fusion ammo for backing up my buffalo clients and can’t see anything bigger adding much.”

#3 “The guys who bring 338 Wins usually have trouble with shot placement and have more problems with wounded animals than those who use 30/06’s.” His best client for animals down quickly was a little 12 yo using a cut down Ruger 250 Savage.

There you go...take your pick.