Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers Alaskan Model 71 vs Bolt rifle test

Recently this winter, a group of 4 Alaskans ran a fast handling and accuracy trial of Model 71s against bolt action rifles. The experiment
was to be as fair and balanced as possible to insure repeatable results. The shooters then also exchanged rifles,
to give a true picture of all concerned factors in a non-biased venue. The Model 71s were twice as fast as the bolt rifles,
AND were more accurate at the ranges tested.

These riflemen were above average in size, and cycled both types of rifles with all the energy necessary.
One of the factors emerging as possibly needing further testing was barrel length. One rifle was a 458 Win Magnum.
One Model 71 was a 450 Alaskan. Another lever rifle was a Model 71 in 348 WCF.
A Marlin Guide gun in 45-70 with barrel length shading under 20" according to the shooters, was no faster than the bolt guns.
Part of this was due to balance issues and perceived recoil in a shorter package.

Some possible conclusions:
1} 22 inch or the original 24 in barrel may provide extra momentum in the levering reload cycle.
2} The internal design of the original Winchester 1886/Model 71 has designed-in fast handling smooth characteristics
3) 24 in barrels provide more velocity, longer sight radius, and may assist in fast cyclic chambering of additional cartridges

More details may be forthcoming on this rifle comparison.

Very interesting! Nothing beats a Win 71!

looking forward to the details!

Rifles involved in the test:
Remington 700s- Safari in 458 WM-24 in BBL; Winchester Model 71s in 450 Alaskan and 348WCF-24 in Barrels; Marlin Guide Gun-181/2 in BBL.-45-70 GOVT

AMMUNITION: Loads used were factory and hand loaded cartridges. 458 cartridges were hand loaded, factory, some reduced to duplicate 450 Alaskan-45-70 comparable pressures, recoil, and velocity . The aim in the test being to equalize recoil effect among lever rifles and bolt guns-as much as possible-to insure a valid test.

Participants were experienced hunters whose knowledge of both type actions insured equitable evaluation with no bias or built-in favoritism to either type of
rifle action.
Ranges: 25-50-75 yards
Test Measurement Areas: Accuracy:shot placement Speed: Number of aimed shots over time Action Cycled: Flawless ejection/extraction relative smoothness

Test weighted toward handling dangerous game-(Bears in Alaska)
This interjects a reality factor, and was a major reason for the test. {My own research involved a 348 Ackley
Model 71 against a 338-06 Model 70 and a 338 Win Magnum -both were pre-64 Model 70s---similar results}

The Winchester Model 71s were far and away the smoother cycling-ejecting of all rifles tested. They were TWICE as fast as the bolt guns.
Surprisingly, at the speed they were fired-they were also the most accurate on target.
Ergonomics in cycling was appreciated and noticed by the shooters.
Rifles were exchanged-then the bolt gun shooters handled and fired the lever action rifles, and vice versa.
Results were : Roughly the SAME RESULTS with different shooters.

Marlin Guide Gun-18 1/2 inch barrel-45-70. This rifle is being evaluated separately as none of the shooters
were particularly impressed by its characteristics. Speed of handling and accuracy fell short
of the Model 71 rifles, while accuracy was only equal to the bolt action.
The length of barrel was felt to be the major cause of handling difficulty. Balance was thrown off
in the cycling phase during ejection/rechambering. {I have an early-no extra safety- 1895 Marlin 45-70 with 22 in barrel. It handles pretty well and is accurate}.

CONCLUSIONS:
Barrel length is important in lever action extraction/ejection cycling. Balance is critical . Barrel length less than 22 inches may affect accurate shooting;
cycling the action, sight radius, and overall speed of smooth handling.

For dangerous game conditions in Lower 48-Canada-Alaska, the Winchester Model 71 in its original 348 WCF caliber and including the 450 Alaskan-
may be the fastest and smoothest handing lever action rifle V. bolt action available. Its accuracy was also amazing under pressure
of fast ejection, chambering rounds and cycling of the action.

Similar to the findings of the government panel reviewing the famous Sharps rifle {Old Reliable}-the Winchester Model 71 is Simple-strong-and well designed.
(John Browning would have liked having it on a grizzly hunt.)

I've got an early Marlin XLR 1895 45-70 that's much smoother to operate than my old Marlin Guide Gun. I think my XLR would compare favorably against my own 71 and 86 models. It would be interesting to see what they thought of the smooth XLR.

Thanks for posting the results. Taking all the tests into account, shows the practical validity in real life scenarios. Kudos.

Cool post, thank you.

I shoot my Guide gun a lot and carry it while hiking in bear country as it goes well w/ my hat. When I am shooting cowboy loads I can run it fast and hard w/ great hits to 100 yds.

When shooting Buffalo Bore, HSM or Garrett bear loads the muzzle goes to almost straight up w/ each shot and my shot to shot times are much slower but I can whack milk jugs out about 200 yards as fast as I can get back on target. The GG is light and handy and and I like carrying it and having it in camp in bear country.

That being said I am now craving a big bore 71


mike r

Another factor is the great angle that the 71 pistol grip holds the hand and arm...gives excellent leverage for initiating the lever throw. I have a Marlin guide gun in 450 Marlin and the straight stock gives limited leverage and ensures a nice rap to the knuckles with every shot. The running moose I took with my 71 about 18 months ago now I doubt I would have taken with any other rifle in my stable. The amazing balance helps first shot speed and target acquisition as well as follow up shots. Manageable recoil also helps. A truly great piece of equipment.

An excellent point. The ergonomics of the pistol grip area and the necessary curve of the lever combine with balance and barrel length to really produce a
unique rifle. My largest whitetail buck was taken years ago with a Model 71, and the running shot would not even have been attempted with one of my scoped rifles.
I also made an impossible shot on a bobcat actually stalking moving deer in a small group. More recently in Alaska, I caught up with a moose in the willows
and the M 71 finished the hunt.
Now that you mention it, I have two Model 1886 smokeless -era rifles in 33 WCF. The 86-33 WCF combination was the precursors to the 348 Model 71. The
half magazine rapid taper-straight lever grip- standard 86 is pretty fast, but not as smoothly functioning as the M71. The other 86 is a checked special order in 33 WCF,
with a pistol grip and curved lever like the Model 71. You can tell where Winchester got the idea for the Model 71.

Winchester made a few model 71 rifles in 33 cal,and a couple in 45-70. A friend of mine has a early long tang deluxe in 33 but i cant get it away from him !! Don

The credit for the stock design of the 71 (plus the 64 and 65) is usually given to an NRA design team headed by Townsend Whelen. 30-some years before that, his personal 1895 was modified with a similar shaped stock.

You are on target Mitch, as to the stock and forend design. Whelen/NRA suggested that the forend be a bit beefier for recoil handling.

A German named Gerlich I think got to Winchester about 1934 as they were puzzling over a design to incorporate the best features
of lever actions they were to discontinue. The large variety of cartridges in the 1886 was a factor. Gerlich influenced the design team, as they settled
on the new 34 later 348 WCF caliber-and in the first couple of years one could get a 33WCF or 45-70 GOVT chambering. Winchester settled on the M-71 design that closely resembled the 86 but with special order features like the half magazine and pistol grip. This was still the depression era, and Winchester felt it like other manufacturers.
Pre-WWII, Winchester made every effort to still satisfy the customer-as George Madis points out in his books.

I can't help but wonder if someone might have prevailed upon Winchester to chamber the M-71 in 45-90 for a few rifles.
That would have filled a gap in smokeless loadings and power.

Going back to our topic: Originally, as much as the M-71 short rifle or carbine has become sought after by collectors, I think the
shorter barrel lacks rifle balance necessary for smooth slick handling as compared to the full length 24 in barrel version.
I have not tested my theory, as the 20 inch standard weight barrel M-71 is scarce and I do not own one,
My 22 inch medium heavy barrel 450 offers no cycling issues, so it is possible that the pistol grip and curved lever take up
the cycling angle force and re-chambering well enough for a fast slick action.

But nobody carries the 71 because it is too heavy, too long. So they all go back to packing the Guide Gun because it is just handier.

Thanks for the informative post documenting the follow- up shot speed and accuracy tests. Well done!

It documented what I have known for years and what any shooter of both bolts and levers intuitively feels and knows.

Enter the age of the girly-man. Nothin' wrong with a Guide Gun, but it ain't a 71.

I believe your correct about the longer barrel balancing out the rifle and equalizing resistance of the lever throw. I've only tried it on my Marlin GG vs Marlin XLR and it seems to be easier to use the longer rifle with speed. I could try it on my Win 71's as I've got two short 20" Brownings and one longer Winchester but honestly I'm still building up ammo resources, but my Marlins offer a similiar analog.

+1

It's sacrilegious to suggest anything marlin is equitable or even in the same league as a Winchester 71 or 1886!

Thanks for the very interesting test results!
I use/carry both the carbine and rifle length Winchester model 71s in 348.
The 20” carbine is a bit lighter and shorter, making it easier to maneuver through the woods.
I’d give the 24” rifle the nod for a bit better balance and accuracy, but not enough for me to prefer carrying it over the carbine.
Between the two, I’ve never noticed a difference in cycling time for accurate repeat shots, but I’ve never gotten serious about testing one against the other.
I frequently use a model 70 xtr Featherweight (red pad) 30/06 that has an action that is smooth as butter, but it doesn’t compare to the Model 71s for quick, on target repeat shots.

Don,

When you finally get him to break down and sell it to you, let me know so I can beg you to sell it to me😁

that test should have been against a Browning BLR ,I have a deluxe 348 win. ,Marlin guide gun and some BLR`S too all are nice rifles , my choice after shooting all these rifles the 348 and 45-70 are not as accurate as a BLR ,the 71 or the guide gun are no faster than a BLR Browning all are lever rifles ,with the larger cartridges in the BLR like a 300 win.mag. is really more powerful than the other two and the other two 348 and 45-70 are short range cartridges compared too a 300 win.mag. as far as weight goes if you have trouble hunting with a little heavier rifle just how do you handle hunting in the wild country ?

The Model 71 was designed by real riflemen, for real men. I'm not surprised it works as intended.

All rifles were open sights?

REALLY ?

Yes, really

I always wonder about shooters that worry about their second shot more than their first.

this real man thing ? I own and shoot a Winchester 71 348 deluxe,many magnums including 375 H&H`S,460 Ruger,338 Lapua,416 Rigby,458 win.mags.458 lott I just don`t feel it???

The results of that test are absolute bullshyt. They had to be handicapping the bolt rifles with iron sights for the old 71 to compete in accuracy OR speed of accurate fire. Regardless, a Remington 7600 or Browning BAR wearing a scope or red dot sight would have easily whipped them all if accurate repeat fire is the primary goal. There is simply NO WAY iron sights will ever be able to compete with a scope or red dot for sheer speed of aquiring and lining up on a target. .

and let`s not forget how accurate and fast a AR-10 with a scope shoots too ? Black heart is correct !

We are not talking about the first shot. Its cycling of the action for repeat shots. Lever actions. So after you have
emptied your bear spray, and failed to listen to your Alaskan guide on your Mountain bikes: suddenly
MS. Grizz with 2 cubs is on you like last month's bounced rent check. And you NEVER have hunted in Alaska?

We are not acquiring sights-you should have already DONE that. Suggest you read Rifle and Handloader old issues with Phil Shoemaker's comments.

Please.

So, until you have handled a pre-war Model 71 in 450 Alaskan, or hunted grizzlies in the alders-stay safe at the range.
Its not an accident that guides in AK have LARGE BORE rifles that work on the 1886-M-95 principle. It takes more than just ONE well aimed shot, you have to STOP a grizzly
OR, the grizzly may eventually die, but you will not be alive to see where he went. Multiple shots may be required.

Do you have a grizzly mount-shot in AK- above your desk in your outdoor library room? I do. Thank you.
Are you a combat veteran-in REAL combat? Bad information on some of these sites can get uninformed people mauled and killed.
Like Julie H. one of the two gals drug out of sleeping bags In Glacier National Park. (1967)

Get real and get informed. Those Canadian/Alaskan tests were real, conducted by real hunters and real guides.

well for some people you may be right ? my dear friend a marine, who yes was in viet nam frontline with the rock soldiers and was wounded in viet nam, also lived in Alaska for 20 years, did some bear guiding too ,has killed 3 charging different grizzly bears killed all 3 with a 338 win.mag. in a Remington 700 bolt action, all 3 different years.as he has said to me if you can try to wait the bear out they die slow or if you can get your shots at that bear at a distance, that's were a bolt action magnum might be the right choice.i own a pre war 71 its a great rifle but I`d rather use a 338 win.mag. as the marine has said,he`s seen and been in some real nasty gun battles, he has no fear of man nor beast just his wife ! he also has one of his grizzly bears stuffed by the door when you walk in on a shelf kinda cool too.

Many will not agree on such a controversial rifle subject as "lever vs bolt action" open sights.{ Newer BA rifles have no iron sights}

I have both-- in heavier calibers including
a pre-64 M-70 in 375 H&H. For coastal bears in AK the 375 and a 450 AK is what I carry. Depending on alders and thick stuff.
Bottom line is people will carry what they carry-many times a "bear rifle" becomes
what's in your hands. A heavy revolver in a sturdy holster may save your life if
a rifle gets swatted.
This thread is about WHAT WORKS. Its not about favorites or
personal prejudices.

Another hunter was recently killed by a grizzly in Wyoming. Last year's
Forest Service off duty Ranger near Glacier Park----- makes two.

If you make the wrong choice-at the wrong time-someone will read about you
and what you used to carry before getting mauled.

Being a combat veteran-I listen to combat vets who have been there.
Same with bear hunters and bear guides. Talk is cheap. Experience is expensive.

Interesting test, but I cant help but wonder about the results. There is no doubt that the average shooter will shoot a lever faster than a bolt gun, but I have seen some guys ( most of them European hunters) that could run a bolt awfully fast. Being a lefty I love lever guns, and I do carry one guiding a lot. My question would be about barrel length. The longer barrel might aid cycling during a test on a rifle range, but it is detrimental in the pucker brush when you're trailing a wounded bear.

The 22 and 24 in barrels on my early 450 pre-war Model 71 rifles are really not that long compared to my pre-64 M-70 in 375. Phil Shoemaker tends to agree
on lever action rifles. No hunter can really guess the outcome of following a wounded grizzly into the alders. I would prefer a balanced fast handling early Winchester 1886-M-71, but that is just me.
The barrel length on this test of the Marlin was less than 19 inches, and that is just legal-and interferes with function on repeat shots-for most hunters.

Its all personal preference, but the stakes can be high.

The Jackson, WY outfitter and elk guide is not alive to tell his story on a backup gun in a bow hunt. The bear was defending an overnight elk pile. There was a Glock pistol and my bet is
the guide did not chamber a round from the magazine. It was safe-too safe for the inexperienced hunter to use it. The trigger snapped on an empty chamber.
I sometimes carry a Colt New Service revolver in 45 Colt. Same pistol as carried by the RCMP-the Mounties for years. It has a lanyard ring and strong cord. It will not be
lost in the snow or fail to function-for six rounds.

Yes a pistol can be a lifesaver when things go really bad. When I first started guiding years ago I worked with a fellow that had been mauled by a wounded grizzly he was following. He wouldnt have survived if it wasn't for a young horse wrangler. The young fellow was waiting out in a clearing and heard Ross screaming. He went in with a 30-30 and killed the bear. It was a big one too, it went book. I shoot left handed and do like lever guns. I used the Marlin GG as a backup rifle for many years and had to use it on wounded bears a few times. It worked great for me, I like the way the gun balances and find it incredibly fast, although in most cases you are only going to get one shot anyway. I switched to a bolt gun a few years ago and doubt I would ever go back to a lever for guiding. In terms of just speed the Savage 99 is likely the fastest lever ever made. One of those in 358 would be hard to beat in the thick stuff.