Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Who has the lowest SN 99 in 300 Savage?

I seem to remember a JTC quote saying the first 99G was about 237,500 - which according to Murray's is the end of 1921.

Curious about when they were introduced. Looked a while back and the first ads I could find were for the combo kits in late 1921, and the first catalog/price list I know of is 1922 - which calls it the new 300 Savage cartridge.

But those dates conflict with the timeline of 1920's being made in them in 1920.

So what's the campfire got? I'm afraid I don't have any early ones and no notes on them. Earliest I personally know of off the top of my head is 245,xxx - which I'm sure isn't the earliest.

Rory, The earliest one i have is 238,010. Don

That's right in there for what I had written down. Thanks, Don. Hope you didn't have to traipse thru the snow into the Savage 99 Wonderland Cave to find out.

No ,i remember that one ,its in my cased set. But i dont remember if i have any earlier,that would require a walk,spent most all day yesterday plowing and opening up my walkways !

My 300 combo kit is 246xxx. It went from the factory to the shipping department March 14, 1923. Doug said he'd never seen a case quite like the one it came with. David

Jim pointed this one out to me. I'm posting a link to the auction since it's gone through gunbroker 11 times since November.

Serial # 236909 - according to seller

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/745770741

Don's early 99G in cased set, SN 238,010




David, I think this is your cased set, SN 246,xxx

SN 245,0xx here. 99G in 300 obviously.

Interesting that all the earliest 300 Savage rifles have been 99G's so far.

Mine is 391xxx.
Hey, at least it's a Utica rifle.

I also have a 99C in 300, serial 247xxx and a 99D in 300 serial 252xxx.

Nice to see some variety, David. Thx. If anybody has low 300's in other models, post them up also. May as well get all the info we can.

January 3rd, 1922 - all styles of the Savage 99 and model 1920 rifles are now chambered for the new 300 Savage cartridge.

This is a little later but is interesting because it's a very early medium weight barrel 99G with the transition front sight Serial #290xxx. The front sight shows up well against the snow. Unfortunately it has been D&T'd and has a rubber recoil pad.

Man, who's that wild eyed pioneer with the Savage rifle and the big honey badger?

Very nice, David! Well, it's not original, but it's a perfectly good "using" rifle, still doing what it was intended to do. What was the load you used on the cow elk? How long a shot?

My oldest 99 is an EG, made around 1936 or 1937. Serial number is 369XXX. It's in great shape, but has been drilled and tapped. I repaired the cracked butt stock and epoxy bedded it as well. it wears a Lyman micrometer peep sight.

I also have a 99D in 300, s/n 267860

I have a 99C 253600

150 grain Nosler Partition and I believe 39 grains of IMR 4895. I shot her in the spine above the shoulder. It's a good shooter, it groups about 1" to 1 1/4" at 100 yards. I've posted this before but when I bought it barely got five shots on a target at 100 yards. The barrel would come off with a gentle twist of the hand. I took it to an old time gunsmith who was in his 80's and he said he could chase the threads but I wouldn't be able to take it apart without a barrel vise. He did it and that's when it started shooting those small groups. This was sometime in the mid 1990's. I don't have any interest in taking the barrel off. I've hunted with some more since that kill but haven't gotten anything else with it...yet. David

249,2xx in 99F and cased set 284,3xx 99G.

That cased set is really a fine, fine example. Wow.

99G - SN 2386xx

Purchased at The Green Store's going out of business sale circa 1972/73.

Originally a 300.But put together as a kit with 3 other barrel. Not mine.

#243633 99G 300
#245945 takedown 300

Any chance there's a letter on that one? I would expect that one to have started out as a second style 250-3000 and had the 300 Savage barrel added later. That's end of 1919/early 1920.

I don't know who has or what is the lowest serial number, but someday I want something that's numbered 007, 99 or 86 in honor of Mr. Bond and Smart, and the latter's sidekick Agent 86. Come to think of it the Savage 99 in itself kind of does it for Agent 99!

Looks like your going to have to get a few Winchesters ,to get those numbers !

I have an Anschutz prototype serial #007, it's sexy but it's no agent 99

Earliest I have in my data is:
23422x 99-F .300 SAV
23471x 99-B .300 SAV

236461 99-G .250 SAV was the serial JTC gave us as the first G.

FYI...
23380x 1899-250 .250 SAV lettered 9/27/1920 produced
23695x 99-G .300 SAV Cased set lettered 10/13/1921 production

So here is an overview of early 300 Savage rifles and some dates that we know of off of letters...

Seems that the first 300 Savage rifles are in 1920, but production in 1921 looks very, very low. Murray's shows 8,500 99's made in 1921 (229,001 - 237,500), but the dates below indicate the highest 1920 serial numbers went much higher than 229,000. We actually have a letter showing that serial number 229,000 was reached in summer of 1920. It looks llike there were only a couple thousand 99's made in 1921 according to the data below - 235,000'ish to 237,500'ish.

I don't recall EVER running across a 1920 ad for the 300 Savage cartridge. That's probably correct given this data, they may have started production of the 300 Savage in very late 1920 to have inventory on hand for 1921. But the earliest 1921 advertising I've found for the 300 Savage cartridge is in the fall for the combo sets for Dad for Christmas. Wish somebody had a 1921 price list... (hint?? )

I'm thinking the same thing. A factory letter would dispel rumors that it is purely a put-together kit (albeit a nice one!).

Being that rifle has been refinished and had barrels added to it, I left it out of the final list for now. Right now there's a pretty firm cutoff around 234,xxx, need a bit more confirmation or more examples before we drop it 20,000 lower.

Never say never, but always verify when possible.

My catalog number 61 the blue one has nothing about the 300 in it! lots about the model 1920 in 250-3000. My catalog no.62 has the new 300 listed in it ,along with the new 410 barrel . I do have a price sheet with the no.62 catalog. it also has the model 1921 repeating shotgun in it. What info do you need from the price list ?? Don

I also noticed all the rifle models still are called 1899, as the G is the 1899G .

Don, just looking for a price list dated for early 1921 that lists the 300 Savage. I linked in a page of the Jan, 1922 pricelist earlier in this thread.

And, yes.. we know that the first year or so listed the new "99" models as 1899's. For simplicity sake we ignore that just like Doug Murray did and we call them 99's. It has about as much meaning as the Savage Model 1899 stamp on the receivers.

Savage 1899's - name based on telegraph codes
Savage 99's - name based on catalogued model letters

The price list i have,lists the shotgun barrel ,but no kit,case. It also calls the checkering "MACHINE CHECKERING" i'm guessing the price list is early 1922. I dont know if i have ever seen a 1921 price list. i didnt look in my no 61 catalog for a price list ,i'll check and see if there is one. Don

The January, 1922 price list I have shows the 1921 shotgun, the 99 models, ,the 1919 NRA, but doesn't show the 1922 Sporter. All the 99's still have perchbelly stocks, old pictures. It also has 1922 stamped at the top of every page.

If you have a later 1922 price list, I would think it might have the 1922 sporter listed? If you have a 1921 shotgun shown, but not a 1922 date or 1922 sporter... might be a 1921 price list?

The 1921 price list or dated catalog is mostly for curiosity.. I've never seen one, but they had to have sent one out since it's obvious they were making 300 Savage's in late 1920 preparing for it. It's also really odd to me that I can't find any advertising for the 300 Savage until Sep/Oct of 1921 - though there was a pretty severe economic depression that hit from 1920-1921.

I have no price list in the number 61 catalog. you would think there would be a huge flier somewhere all about the new "300" !!

Yep, it's bizarre. I'm looking at a Savage Arms ad in Field & Stream, June 1921 - and not a mention of 300 Savage. 30-30, 303, 22HP, 250-3000 are all listed.

Very first mention I can find of it is in combination kit ads showing up in September, 1921 in multiple magazines (Field & Stream, Hardware, etc). Earlier in 1920 I can find ads for the 1921 shotgun, ads for Roy Chapman using the 250-3000 on his November, 1920 Asiatic expedition, ads for Stevens 22's being used in the 1920 Olympics..

It's almost like they made the 300 Savage rifles, and then didn't sell any for a year. Or at least didn't advertise them... but WHY?

Wasn't this the time frame when Stevens took over production? Tom

It was the other way around.

Unless Savage held back because of technical reasons.. do we have accepted or ship dates for any of those low serial numbered 300 Savage rifles?

First thing that comes to mind is heat treating for higher pressure, but the 300 Savage is barely any more pressure than the 250 Savage. (250 is 45,000 CUP, 300 is 46,000 CUP)

Second thing is possible problems with ammo production?

Third thing is legal issues.. lawsuit for patent infringement, etc. Goodness knows that there have been enough lawsuits over patent infringements on cartridges in the last 20 years.

Or possibly they had their hands full with the new Stevens stepchild?

I can't imagine they had to shut down sales channels to handle Stevens...

Probably lots of stuff going on. Economic depression, massive downsizing probably still after the war, merging Stevens into the fold..

But if they made 99's in 300 Savage in late 1920, did they sell them? If they did, where's the ads/catalogs?

Murray's says under the 300 Savage cartridge in chapter 4 that Savage sold the 99A chambered in 300 Savage in 1920 first. Wish we had a source for that...

If it's been hashed out before I apologize, but what about the first M1920 in .300? Could it have slightly preceded the 99 in .300?

I'm watching for any ads or articles on that as well. I haven't seen anything for the 1920 that's earlier than the 99 in print.

Outing magazine, June 1920. Months before the 300 Savage rifles, doesn't sound like they are being buried with the merger.

This is it.. first mention of the 300 Savage I can find. Same month that the first ads come out for the combination kits with the 99G in 300 Savage.

September, 1921.

Dug through catalogs, newspapers, scanned copies of magazines.. I just CANNOT find any mention of the 300 Savage prior to this. First dated catalog/pricelist I've seen with 300 Savage is the catalog 62 and Jan, 1922 pricelist. Earlier ads in 1921 make no mention of 300 Savage, nor do they mention any model letters like the 99G.

So.. maybe we are misreading this list.

WHAT IF.. production in 1920 stopped at 234,000? And didn't resume until fall of 1921? Then everything fits.

They did crank out a LOT of 1899's in 1919-1920. Prior to WWI, production per year was 10,000-15,000 per year with 15,000 being an exceptional year. In 1919-1920 they averaged 20,000 per year. Maybe they just overloaded their supply channels and it took a year to empty out inventory?

They also just had the 1920 come on line, which could have absorbed some worker's time. And the 1921 shotgun was available at the first of the year in 1921. More work.

Rory, looking at your data, it looks like Q3 1921 production to have inventory for sales/marketing launch on Jan 1922. This scenario would fit with a first price list in January 1922 and the 300 Savage launch flyer you posted.

Interesting to ponder.

Good work, Rory. Your hypothesis makes much sense.

I will add though, having survived a couple industrial takeovers in my life, that it isn't all skittles and beer for either party during such times.

It's beginning to look like Savage was a bit star-crossed in 1920-1921 for a few months, for whatever reason, and the debut of the .300 was slow to materialize- no matter the bright face they showed to the public with their reassuring ad. Companies lied to the public then as they do now.

I'm now thinking it's quite possible they didn't start production of the 300 Savage until fall of 1921, probably spent end of 1920/beginning of 1921 developing it and put it on the market in the fall of 1921.

Just read through 1920's 4th quarter results as spun by President Wright, and they were hurting. Orders at a low point, businesses they had diversified into and kick started crashed before any orders fulfilled (ball bearings, motor axles, etc). They lost money in 1920 after making money and paying lots of dividends the year before, no dividends paid in 1920. Stevens apparently was doing good for them, but there weren't many bright spots. Savage Arms steel production in Feb, 1921 was 75% shut down. So if their 1899 inventory was full and orders disappeared as the 1920 Depression hit with high inflation.. yeah, they might have pretty much stopped production for 10 months on the 1899's. It's possible..

Just ran into this: September, 1920:

Looking at the sales numbers...sales for 1921 was less than 5000 ea. 1899's. I think the production numbers, 18,000, are correct it is just that what was produced didn't sell/ship.

What source do you have for the sales numbers?

Murrays (as well as Kimmel) has the production numbers as 8,500 for 1921, from 229,001 to 237,500. And we know that's wrong, we have data on a letter for 227,8xx in 5/25/1920 and 229,2xx for 6/14/1920. It really looks like 1920 ends around 234,000 or 235,000.

The one letter I have for 1921 makes it look like 1921 would end no higher than 240,000 and could be as low as Murray's 237,500 - and then Murray's gets back on track for 1922+.

So I can see production for 1921 as 5,000 - I can't see it as 18,000. Unless my data is all wonky.

PS: Oh, wait.. did you mean production for 1920 was 18,000? Murrays shows 17,500, but data from letters shows it's more likely 22,500 (ending at 234,000 rather than 229,000).

There was a depression in 1920-21 and perhaps Savage overproduced immediately after the war in anticipation of an upswing in the national economy. Maybe Savage got that one wrong and had a momentary surplus on their hands. According to Murray, Savage made about 7,000 99s in 1922 with the year bracketed on both sides with higher production years. I think Savage likely spent parts of 21 and 22 hustling rifles that just weren't selling on the market.

And maybe they thought that once the .300 was released in the 99 the demand for other calibler 99s woudl drop, so they needed to pedal backlog first.

Well, I'm done deep diving the internet. I can find no reference to the 300 Savage being around prior to September, 1921 in anything except books/articles written 10+ years later saying it was introduced around 1920. There's just as many other references that say it was introduced in 1921. I've dove through newspapers, magazines, old gun books, library archives, financial returns (and oh cripes did THAT SUCK), etc.

In the 1920 financial report they mention the new 1921 repeating shotgun and new axles/tires/bearings they were going to be producing, but no mention of the new 300 Savage cartridge. They also mention that ALL inventory has been marked down to cost or market, whichever is lower. No company that isn't in very dire straits marks their inventory down to cost or lower.. Unfortunately I can't find a full annual report for 1921, just a Moody's summary which lists no products. I think Savage might have been dodging the newspapers.

So when you look at 1920/1921 for the 300 Savage.. absolute nada until September, 1921. In September you find ads for the 300 in the 99 and the model 1920, you see references to is as "introduced a new cartridge", in December you find people asking about this new 300 Savage cartridge they heard about the month before, and the magazine writers not knowing the proper powder loads for it yet. Back in June of 1921 and earlier you find ads for Savage, but they are for all the other cartridges except the 300.

I can't see any conclusion except that the 300 Savage was NOT sold until fall of 1921. I know this contradicts "history", but I can't see there's any source backing up the intro in 1920.

If somebody has a historical source showing the 300 Savage was introduced in 1920, please pass it along.

And if the 99's chambered in 300 Savage started in the fall of 1921, then it only makes sense to say that the 99 models start in the fall of 1921. Just like the first 99F's were produced the year before they were catalogued in the 50's.

Best way to verify this or disprove this is probably to get a couple of letters on the earliest 99's in 300 Savage in the 234,xxx range to find the date they were accepted by the factory.




PS: For financial guys out there (I know we have a couple)
Savage Arms Annual Report with comments by Pres. Wright - 1920
Moody's Annual Report on Savage Arms - 1921

Rory, I have Savage sales info (don't know if it is just sales or sold and shipped) for:
1912
1913
1914
1915
1919
1920
1921
1922
1923
1924
1925
1933
1934
1935
1936
1937
1938
1939

But sales would be units shipped, not manufactured. If they manufactured 41,000 guns in 1919 and 1920, how many were still in the warehouse on Dec. 31, 1920 waiting to ship in the midst of a serious Depression? They cut prices to cost or lower in 1921 according to President Wilfred Wright in Jan 1921. Did they continue to produce guns while making zero money?


PS: Oh, so much of my career has been spent with marketing and bean counters and warehousing while developing systems to track and report on inventory/mfr'ing/supply chains or simply tracking active customers. Still remember the time I had to inform a CEO/CFO that their customer counts were inflated by 50% in the midst of them being in talks to sell their company. They both hated me for possibly ruining the sale while also loving me for probably saving them from charges of fraud.

It's not unimaginable to me to think that from the time Savage made the decision to produce the 300 Savage (1920?) until they actually sold one (late 21?) that it could have taken a year or more to get it off the drawing board and onto store shelves. Especially with all the mitigating circumstances mentioned heretofore. There may have been 100 other reasons or possible explanations to explain the delay.

The 300 savage caliber may have been in development for some time before 1920 before Savage made the decision to put it into production. If it was being developed by Savage as a proprietary offering it would have been considered a trade secret until they rolled it out. So you certainly wouldn't have seen anything in print about it before that.

Yeah, I'm thinking they likely shut down the lines to sell off inventory and raise cash, but were planning on the 300 Savage to bring them back in the game when they started up again. The 30-06 was very well known after WWI obviously, so introducing a short action cartridge that matched the Army rifle ballistics would bring the Model 99 back into the game and ahead of most of the lever action competition.

So, if the introductory date for the .300 Savage is later than we had believed, does this change what we have been saying about when Savage changed the heat treatment of the receivers?

I believe the receiver heat treatment is associated with the release of the .250-3000.

HI I have 1899 G ser.. 237136, 24in barrel .take down, savage flat top rear sight, marbles tang sight 75-85 % original finish ,on the gun , has a pistol grip cap savage 1899 model on top of receiver so small you need a magnifying glass. or better eyes than my old ones.to read smooth action I've been calling it as made in 1921 ? IT has not been messed with no extra holes steve 18sgd99

Well, if the following letter is correct, then your gun is almost surely a 1921 rifle. Yours is only 180 higher than this one.


Is yours a 300 Savage?

October, 1921 in Hunter, Trader, Trapper - Savage has a new cartridge for both the 1899 and 1920

https://books.google.com/books?id=Mw7OAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA64#v=onepage&q&f=false

99G 2430XX......in original box...

Oh.. that's so sweet! Late 1922?

Loooove it.

September, 1921 - Hardware and Housefurnishings.
(also in September, 1921 Southern Hardware magazine, National Hardware Bulletin, Hardware Dealers Magazine, Hardware World)
-- "The sportman's need for a sporting cartridge combining the extreme efficiency of the .30 Government Cartridge has at last been met by the Savage .300."
-- "The model 1899 lever action and the model 1920 bolt action Savage rifles will be chambered for this new cartridge."
-- "Order your stock NOW for this falls hunting"

https://books.google.com/books?id=Y...;pg=RA6-PA41#v=onepage&q&f=false

yes my 1899 G is 300 sav, thanks Steve

Savage says the new 300 is of the same dimension as the 250-3000 but with a 30 neck? Pretty loose description...

October 1920 Hardware magazine: "The Savage Arms Corporation, Utica, New York, with executive and export offices at No. 50 Church Street, New York City, have issued their Catalog No. 61".

October 1920 Hardware World: Plumbing & Heating, Vol 15: "SAVAGE ARMS COMPLETE CATALOG - New catalog No. 61, issued by the Savage Arms Corporation at Utica, New York, is in reality a complete manual and guide book for the owner and merchant of arms and ammunition."

I think it's safe to say you have a pretty firm date for Catalog 61.

Ok, so appears to have been released Oct. 1920. Available 1920 & 1921. Until #62 was available.

(Rick99 may have updated since then...)

My 1921 300 savage G 237,025

That's a very early one, mac. Nice.

Southern_WI_Savage, I don't think catalog 61 was continued throughout 1921. Maybe through the spring?

Catalog 62 lists the 300 Savage and 410 barrel, but does not list the Combination Set. Both the 300 Savage and 410 barrel as an accessory came out in the summer of 1921, Combination Set in fall of 1921. So that seems to pin Catalog 62 to the intro of the 300 Savage and 410 barrel.
Catalog 63 lists the Combination Set which came out in the fall of 1921.

I'd say Catalog 61 up through spring of 1921.
Catalog 62 from mid-1921 to late 1921.
First Catalog 63 with Nature's Rogue Gallery from either late 1921 or early 1922 to 1924.

My FFL just took in a 300 takedown in the 245,000 range. Perch belly, small integral front sight. Complete refinish.

Perchbelly?

The box says "STYLE" - G, not model. Interesting.

...and "Model 1899" plus "SAVAGE 300 Rifle".

Bet the receiver is stamped SAVAGE MODEL 1899 also.

Yes. I don't know alot about those years but since it's been completely refinished, very well done except for the darned blued lever, I assumed it was an earlier buttstock. Something just didn't add up to me in my very limited knowledge. I thought it was an introductory 250-3000 at first glance, but it turned out to be a 300.
Don't fry me, like I said, not in my wheelhouse.