Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Alaska My partner's sheep ruled illegal. Your opinion?

Ever heard of a paragraph?

Ever heard of a paragraph?

Ah course. It's too of them longnnecked leaf eatin thingamagigs. But what does that matter?

Sorry but i am sick of people pushing the envelope and shooting marginsl sheep. Please sue the guide in small claims court for the hunt. He needs to get a clue and hunt legal sheep.....

Thank you all for your input. My partner talked to the guide last night and they are going to give us the refund.

Where are the pictures ?

Asked for 50% and that is what they gave us. We also got offered to do another hunt at a reduced price but have not made that decision yet. I'll try to get pictures but I will have to do that at work which will be next week.

Asked for 50% and that is what they gave us. We also got offered to do another hunt at a reduced price but have not made that decision yet. I'll try to get pictures but I will have to do that at work which will be next week.

Sitka- I tried to PM you but you private message box was full.

Seems, at first blush anyway, that accepting such an offer might be giving tacit approval to their methods and the way they operate. Perhaps they made a simple mistake; perhaps they do this one a somewhat regular basis. I certainly think I'd look into their history before agreeing to accept further associations with them.

Sorry about that, just made space a few days ago and it filled right back up on me..

Well ain’t chu jusda belle a da ball?

😁

In a way I agree, certainly returning would and that is not a good place to be. I suspect the Troopers keep a close eye on anyone they suspect is running too close to the edge...

If this happened with any regularity to a particular outfitter, how long before they'd pull his license?

Outfitter/guide got away to easy with only a 50% refund. You paid for a service, their knowledge, and they failed getting your buddy in some hot water and otherwise destroying a memorable experience.At the very least there should be payment made for the trips total expense. From leaving home to returning with associated expenses. If I was a judge or a member of a jury I'd give you all of that plus extra for mental duress.

Outfitter/guide got away to easy with only a 50% refund. You paid for a service, their knowledge, and they failed getting your buddy in some hot water and otherwise destroying a memorable experience.At the very least there should be payment made for the trips total expense. From leaving home to returning with associated expenses. If I was a judge or a member of a jury I'd give you all of that plus extra for mental duress.

This is just my personal opinion and more knowledge of the situation may be revealing, but...

The guy behind the gun has the final responsibility for pulling the trigger and having some
knowledge of what he is embarking on.
I don't think the guide service needs to be skinned alive, but does share probably half of the blame.

More specifics may change the whole scenario.
Tiim

Absolutely. I also wonder what responsibility the state of Alaska has for issuing him a guide license and then forcing non-residents to hire him.

The guide is not "making the call" for you, you are free to hold out for a bigger ram.

The guide is confirming whether the ram is legal, which is his responsibility and his job. If he makes a mistake it could cost him his license, and will certainly diminish his reputation. A guide depends on his reputation.

If a guide makes the determination that a ram is legal, the hunter paying his fee should never have to second guess that.

That's not a "story" it's an opinion and as far as pictures you're asking the wrong person.

I had a client in Africa hunting many of the plains game with me. He told me of his past hunting in the states.

He bought an auction tag for bighorn in Alberta. He spent an entire middle class life's income on that tag. Over 1 m bucks as it was told to me. He was able to hunt in a park with this special tag and told his guide he would not shoot a ram unless it was the new world record. He hunted every day of the season and finished the hunt without a sheep. None were found that would 100% break the existing record.

The next year he won this tag again, got it for less money as many of the high rollers knew he was in it and they would never outbid him. He again planned on hunting every day of the season or until he killed a new world record. He did shoot a ram after two whole seasons and viewing countless trophies. Unfortunately it missed the new world record by a slim margin. At the point of my meeting him he had not yet entered it into SCI or B&C and said he probably would not since it was not what he had hoped to do. He held no bad feelings for the guide, it was a difficult decision on a very complicated to judge trophy.

The point is, Judging game is easy for many species that have a gender legal status or points with antlers. However many are complicated. I was the best of friends with Duncan Gilchrist for much of my life. He was my hunting mentor and truly one of the greatest outdoorsman to ever have walked the earth. He was also a sheep Fanatic traveling the world to see and film the greatest sheep on earth. He had plenty of horns in his show room and studied them like a religion. Authorities would call and visit him for insight and advice, he taught sheep judging seminars for the FNAWS organisation. I would have never been a great sheep guide with the laws today. I would have had my hunters shoot great big rams or none at all. There is an area of difficulty on the legal or not status of sheep ( and goats) that might just be one of the greatest challenges of trophy judging of almost any big game I can think of.

It's easy to see a big one is legal and a small one is not. However the closer you get to that narrow gap between them the more likely the odds of trouble. It's especially difficult with tired anxious clients and the unimaginable desire of a hard working guide to be successful. ( speaking from plenty of first hand experience here). In reading this, I see the typical and expected negative comments, many could be a perfect bullseye into the capability of the guide. However, that old add-age of walking in somebody else's shoes stands here.

I had an elderly hunter with me 30 years ago in Alaska hunting goat with me. By the middle of the hunt he was cramped sore, blistered and beaten. It was going to be his last mountain hunt and he wanted a big billy in the worst way. With only a couple days left in the hunt we moved to another ridge. I wondered at that time, would I be able to get him back to the lower elevations for the ride out, before he dies on me! Each evening he expressed his gratitude to me and how important this was. Going so far as to say this was worth it to him even if he dies up here trying to manage this hunt. Sarcastic or not it was troubling. However who was I to deny this gentleman the experience of his life, and he chose to do this with me!

The first morning hunt after the ridge change we see an extraordinary billy at 400-500 yards but we are in the path of a wind current that makes it difficult to stand much less shoot. We can close the gap and get around the corner out of the wind with about another 45 min hike. About this time we are settling in and he is catching his breath. He sets up for the shot and after 10minutes says to me " can you just shoot him for me, I cannot hold this gun steady my crosshairs are all over"

I said no, he needed to rest more or calm down and we will have time to wait it out they are bedded. After 30 min he still says he cannot hold the gun steady, I can see his hands trembling. However he now starts in with this being the greatest hunting experience of his life and he is just looking around the snow covered peaks in awe. He has stopped hunting now, its over....... He is talking about the wonders of earth and the beauty of the mountains, and how grateful he was to me for getting him up here.

I suggested to him that he is very calm now, (like he is getting ready for the last goodbye on earth from his mood and commentary). I said just relax and look through the scope, don't even plan to shoot just have a nice look at the big billy to see him. Enjoy this successful stalk and hunt. About 3-4 minutes go by and he says, I think I may be able to shoot! He then said to me "when I shoot will you follow up to make sure we don't lose him". I told him I would try to help anchor the goat if it was hit and in jeopardy of falling off the ledge and we would lose him. The time it took him to pull the trigger seemed forever!

He finally shot at that goat which stood up at the shot and looked back over his shoulder, I fired a shot and that bugger ran up the hill 20 feet reared up and rolled back down. The gentleman hunter was crying, tears rolling down his cheeks. Probably one of the most meaningful and satisfying moments of my whole career up to that point, and few have equaled it since. Maybe also the greatest moment of his life. This is the situation a great respectful and successful guide or professional hunter is up against seasonally. I tend to reflect on this during every hunt since that one. Just how important my roll is in the success and happiness of the client hunter. We as guides and PH's have a desire to win and make the hunt perfectly successful and safe that mere mortals do not understand. The only thing that comes close is that feeling as your kids get old enough to shoot something where you feel more excitement, and happiness for them to shoot their first big game than when you yourself do it. Now imagine that feeling 20 times a year for 30 years or more!

Nobody does this job for the money, it's for the rush, the high, the extraordinary feeling of having a superpower that creates more joy for a man who has created a gigantic successful business worth millions or even billions of dollars, or surgeons that have saved dozens of lives, Athletes that have achieved celebrity status that is astonishing, and you just provided that person with more excitement and happiness than his enormous success or anything else in his life!

This is the underlying part of the choice to shoot at times with complexity and stress, not to mention the haze in a scope, or seeing through the intermittent fog in between you and that last chance trophy. that might be difficult for many folks to understand!

I had a client in Africa hunting many of the plains game with me. He told me of his past hunting in the states.

He bought an auction tag for bighorn in Alberta. He spent an entire middle class life's income on that tag. Over 1 m bucks as it was told to me. He was able to hunt in a park with this special tag and told his guide he would not shoot a ram unless it was the new world record. He hunted every day of the season and finished the hunt without a sheep. None were found that would 100% break the existing record.

The next year he won this tag again, got it for less money as many of the high rollers knew he was in it and they would never outbid him. He again planned on hunting every day of the season or until he killed a new world record. He did shoot a ram after two whole seasons and viewing countless trophies. Unfortunately it missed the new world record by a slim margin. At the point of my meeting him he had not yet entered it into SCI or B&C and said he probably would not since it was not what he had hoped to do. He held no bad feelings for the guide, it was a difficult decision on a very complicated to judge trophy.

The point is, Judging game is easy for many species that have a gender legal status or points with antlers. However many are complicated. I was the best of friends with Duncan Gilchrist for much of my life. He was my hunting mentor and truly one of the greatest outdoorsman to ever have walked the earth. He was also a sheep Fanatic traveling the world to see and film the greatest sheep on earth. He had plenty of horns in his show room and studied them like a religion. Authorities would call and visit him for insight and advice, he taught sheep judging seminars for the FNAWS organisation. I would have never been a great sheep guide with the laws today. I would have had my hunters shoot great big rams or none at all. There is an area of difficulty on the legal or not status of sheep ( and goats) that might just be one of the greatest challenges of trophy judging of almost any big game I can think of.

It's easy to see a big one is legal and a small one is not. However the closer you get to that narrow gap between them the more likely the odds of trouble. It's especially difficult with tired anxious clients and the unimaginable desire of a hard working guide to be successful. ( speaking from plenty of first hand experience here). In reading this, I see the typical and expected negative comments, many could be a perfect bullseye into the capability of the guide. However, that old add-age of walking in somebody else's shoes stands here.

I had an elderly hunter with me 30 years ago in Alaska hunting goat with me. By the middle of the hunt he was cramped sore, blistered and beaten. It was going to be his last mountain hunt and he wanted a big billy in the worst way. With only a couple days left in the hunt we moved to another ridge. I wondered at that time, would I be able to get him back to the lower elevations for the ride out, before he dies on me! Each evening he expressed his gratitude to me and how important this was. Going so far as to say this was worth it to him even if he dies up here trying to manage this hunt. Sarcastic or not it was troubling. However who was I to deny this gentleman the experience of his life, and he chose to do this with me!

The first morning hunt after the ridge change we see an extraordinary billy at 400-500 yards but we are in the path of a wind current that makes it difficult to stand much less shoot. We can close the gap and get around the corner out of the wind with about another 45 min hike. About this time we are settling in and he is catching his breath. He sets up for the shot and after 10minutes says to me " can you just shoot him for me, I cannot hold this gun steady my crosshairs are all over"

I said no, he needed to rest more or calm down and we will have time to wait it out they are bedded. After 30 min he still says he cannot hold the gun steady, I can see his hands trembling. However he now starts in with this being the greatest hunting experience of his life and he is just looking around the snow covered peaks in awe. He has stopped hunting now, its over....... He is talking about the wonders of earth and the beauty of the mountains, and how grateful he was to me for getting him up here.

I suggested to him that he is very calm now, (like he is getting ready for the last goodbye on earth from his mood and commentary). I said just relax and look through the scope, don't even plan to shoot just have a nice look at the big billy to see him. Enjoy this successful stalk and hunt. About 3-4 minutes go by and he says, I think I may be able to shoot! He then said to me "when I shoot will you follow up to make sure we don't lose him". I told him I would try to help anchor the goat if it was hit and in jeopardy of falling off the ledge and we would lose him. The time it took him to pull the trigger seemed forever!

He finally shot at that goat which stood up at the shot and looked back over his shoulder, I fired a shot and that bugger ran up the hill 20 feet reared up and rolled back down. The gentleman hunter was crying, tears rolling down his cheeks. Probably one of the most meaningful and satisfying moments of my whole career up to that point, and few have equaled it since. Maybe also the greatest moment of his life. This is the situation a great respectful and successful guide or professional hunter is up against seasonally. I tend to reflect on this during every hunt since that one. Just how important my roll is in the success and happiness of the client hunter. We as guides and PH's have a desire to win and make the hunt perfectly successful and safe that mere mortals do not understand. The only thing that comes close is that feeling as your kids get old enough to shoot something where you feel more excitement, and happiness for them to shoot their first big game than when you yourself do it. Now imagine that feeling 20 times a year for 30 years or more!

Nobody does this job for the money, it's for the rush, the high, the extraordinary feeling of having a superpower that creates more joy for a man who has created a gigantic successful business worth millions or even billions of dollars, or surgeons that have saved dozens of lives, Athletes that have achieved celebrity status that is astonishing, and you just provided that person with more excitement and happiness than his enormous success or anything else in his life!

This is the underlying part of the choice to shoot at times with complexity and stress, not to mention the haze in a scope, or seeing through the intermittent fog in between you and that last chance trophy. that might be difficult for many folks to understand!

I appreciate those who gave their opinion about my original question. I think we are satisfied with the 50% return. Although I agree that a 100% refund is not unreasonable, like I said before, the outfitter still incurred costs and I know his margins are tight and that both he and the guide are not doing this for money. I am fortunate to be able to afford this hunt, not that it is pocket change by any stretch but I still would feel like I am putting them in a bad spot for taking back all the money. At the end of the day I'd rather sleep with a clear conscience that get a few thousand dollars back. I doubt we will be comfortable going on another hunt with the guide but I appreciate that offer and I think it is one of those deals that just turned out bad for everyone involved. I do not feel that the guide was being grossly negligent. I think he is young and relatively inexperienced and he made a marginal call that came up short.

My intent in posting this was to make sure that I wasn't being a jerk by asking for the 50%. I just wanted the opinion of more experienced people who were looking at it from the outside. As far as all the other comments. I won't attempt to address them all. I will say that as a non resident and someone who has done guided and unguided hunts I feel the guide is ultimately responsible for whether the animal is legal when advising whether or not to shoot. I do think the hunter should question that if they disagree but (especially in this case) that is why I am paying the guide. We were physically able and knowledgable enough to navigate/camps/survive/hunt in a wilderness area. State law and my own inexperience in judging sheep is what prompted me to hire a guide. On the guides end- I can only imagine the pressure they feel. I have what people typically think of as a high stress job but I feel like being a guide for these big dollar hunts would be way more stressful. My hat is off to the guys who are great at it and love it. Because of that maybe I am not being as hard on the guide as it sounds like others would have been.

At the end of the day, even though the ram wasn't deemed legal we came to Alaska, had bad weather, lung busting climbs, put in days without getting a shot and we both ended up making good ethical shots on rams that we stalked. Of course I'm not happy that the ram was deemed too young both for legal as well as conservation/ethical issues but I will never forget when my friend showed back up at camp after a long day and had sheep blood on his hands. I'll always look back on it as him fulfilling a dream in one the last wild places on Earth. I can conjure up the mountains and the wind at a moment's notice and the night sky is just as wonderful whether that ram was a world record or too young. We don't have the horns but we have the memories (good and bad) that before this hunt were only dreams. The grizzly I stalked while it was feeding on blueberries was one of the most awe inspiring moments in nature that I have ever been a part of. I think those are the reasons we all hunt whether we are paying a guide or not and whether or not we take a shot.

Thanks again for the responses.

Yep kudos to the OP

Great attitude

You’d be welcome at my fire

A guy I know was guiding a moose hunt in the Brooks Range this summer. His client killed a bull that wasn't even CLOSE to being legal. I know because I hauled it all from the river takeout to the hanging shed. In this case, the guide was the ONLY one cited and I believe, the outfitter is doing the hunt over for free- at least that is what he told me he knew he had to do. I have no idea how this guy screwed up that bad and I didn't have a chance to talk to him about it. I did ask him at SCI what they did to him and it was a fairly small fine and he is on probation.

I think if a guide is the one judging the legality of the animal and he screws that up, he is on the hook for the whole thing. Asking for only 50% is being a real gentleman.

Just MY opinion again.
I have never had a guide make a call for me--- to shoot ----or not to shoot.
BUT if I had I would expect to share some of the responsibility.

On a tough decision (as this is being labeled) I would be on my spotting scope also and had some conversation before shooting. I may
also go with the guides opinion, and he may be wrong. Sort it out from there.

I have always wanted to go on a sheep hunt myself, but $ and age have now taken that dream away from me.

I do feel for these guys for the end result of a dream.
Tim

JJHACK - Thank you for that post.

The tickets that come with under-age/size sheep kills are not free. Who paid those?

I see no problem with asking for ALL your money back for your friend. The guide has consequences atop yours and his was probably spendy.

Judging sheep for age as a test of legal status is ridiculous and it sounds like the guide does this routinely.

Do you have pictures of the sheep you can post?

It is technically against the law to purchase trophies at the auctions from critters you had confiscated from you. It is illegal for you to possess a trophy you took illegally.

Lots of those get used in various ways by ADF&G, like displays to help people understand how to judge a legal sheep, head mounts for schools, and such. I cleaned one up after splitting for the Anchorage office to show what the annuli look like inside the horn.

This is a link to the best piece they put out on judging sheep after the fact...
https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/...eep_horns_under_full_curl_regulation.pdf

I had a client in Africa hunting many of the plains game with me. He told me of his past hunting in the states.

He bought an auction tag for bighorn in Alberta. He spent an entire middle class life's income on that tag. Over 1 m bucks as it was told to me. He was able to hunt in a park with this special tag and told his guide he would not shoot a ram unless it was the new world record. He hunted every day of the season and finished the hunt without a sheep. None were found that would 100% break the existing record.

The next year he won this tag again, got it for less money as many of the high rollers knew he was in it and they would never outbid him. He again planned on hunting every day of the season or until he killed a new world record. He did shoot a ram after two whole seasons and viewing countless trophies. Unfortunately it missed the new world record by a slim margin. At the point of my meeting him he had not yet entered it into SCI or B&C and said he probably would not since it was not what he had hoped to do. He held no bad feelings for the guide, it was a difficult decision on a very complicated to judge trophy.

The point is, Judging game is easy for many species that have a gender legal status or points with antlers. However many are complicated. I was the best of friends with Duncan Gilchrist for much of my life. He was my hunting mentor and truly one of the greatest outdoorsman to ever have walked the earth. He was also a sheep Fanatic traveling the world to see and film the greatest sheep on earth. He had plenty of horns in his show room and studied them like a religion. Authorities would call and visit him for insight and advice, he taught sheep judging seminars for the FNAWS organisation. I would have never been a great sheep guide with the laws today. I would have had my hunters shoot great big rams or none at all. There is an area of difficulty on the legal or not status of sheep ( and goats) that might just be one of the greatest challenges of trophy judging of almost any big game I can think of.

It's easy to see a big one is legal and a small one is not. However the closer you get to that narrow gap between them the more likely the odds of trouble. It's especially difficult with tired anxious clients and the unimaginable desire of a hard working guide to be successful. ( speaking from plenty of first hand experience here). In reading this, I see the typical and expected negative comments, many could be a perfect bullseye into the capability of the guide. However, that old add-age of walking in somebody else's shoes stands here.

I had an elderly hunter with me 30 years ago in Alaska hunting goat with me. By the middle of the hunt he was cramped sore, blistered and beaten. It was going to be his last mountain hunt and he wanted a big billy in the worst way. With only a couple days left in the hunt we moved to another ridge. I wondered at that time, would I be able to get him back to the lower elevations for the ride out, before he dies on me! Each evening he expressed his gratitude to me and how important this was. Going so far as to say this was worth it to him even if he dies up here trying to manage this hunt. Sarcastic or not it was troubling. However who was I to deny this gentleman the experience of his life, and he chose to do this with me!

The first morning hunt after the ridge change we see an extraordinary billy at 400-500 yards but we are in the path of a wind current that makes it difficult to stand much less shoot. We can close the gap and get around the corner out of the wind with about another 45 min hike. About this time we are settling in and he is catching his breath. He sets up for the shot and after 10minutes says to me " can you just shoot him for me, I cannot hold this gun steady my crosshairs are all over"

I said no, he needed to rest more or calm down and we will have time to wait it out they are bedded. After 30 min he still says he cannot hold the gun steady, I can see his hands trembling. However he now starts in with this being the greatest hunting experience of his life and he is just looking around the snow covered peaks in awe. He has stopped hunting now, its over....... He is talking about the wonders of earth and the beauty of the mountains, and how grateful he was to me for getting him up here.

I suggested to him that he is very calm now, (like he is getting ready for the last goodbye on earth from his mood and commentary). I said just relax and look through the scope, don't even plan to shoot just have a nice look at the big billy to see him. Enjoy this successful stalk and hunt. About 3-4 minutes go by and he says, I think I may be able to shoot! He then said to me "when I shoot will you follow up to make sure we don't lose him". I told him I would try to help anchor the goat if it was hit and in jeopardy of falling off the ledge and we would lose him. The time it took him to pull the trigger seemed forever!

He finally shot at that goat which stood up at the shot and looked back over his shoulder, I fired a shot and that bugger ran up the hill 20 feet reared up and rolled back down. The gentleman hunter was crying, tears rolling down his cheeks. Probably one of the most meaningful and satisfying moments of my whole career up to that point, and few have equaled it since. Maybe also the greatest moment of his life. This is the situation a great respectful and successful guide or professional hunter is up against seasonally. I tend to reflect on this during every hunt since that one. Just how important my roll is in the success and happiness of the client hunter. We as guides and PH's have a desire to win and make the hunt perfectly successful and safe that mere mortals do not understand. The only thing that comes close is that feeling as your kids get old enough to shoot something where you feel more excitement, and happiness for them to shoot their first big game than when you yourself do it. Now imagine that feeling 20 times a year for 30 years or more!

Nobody does this job for the money, it's for the rush, the high, the extraordinary feeling of having a superpower that creates more joy for a man who has created a gigantic successful business worth millions or even billions of dollars, or surgeons that have saved dozens of lives, Athletes that have achieved celebrity status that is astonishing, and you just provided that person with more excitement and happiness than his enormous success or anything else in his life!

This is the underlying part of the choice to shoot at times with complexity and stress, not to mention the haze in a scope, or seeing through the intermittent fog in between you and that last chance trophy. that might be difficult for many folks to understand!