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It's the difference between a hypothetical "problem" and a real problem...
It's just a matter of degree. And one can create the same problem with a rimless case if he FL sizes a little too much each time.
It should be painfully obvious that you are not going to convince anyone here....All you are doing now is beating your head against the wall and destroying your credibility.
If this were a significant problem, don't you think all the thousands of owners, shooting millions of rounds of of 7Mags, 300Mags, 338 Mags, 375 Mags, etc. over the last century or so would be screaming?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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As long as you don’t push the should back when resizing the problem is solved. [/quote] By that time you already have the ring above the belt. Not pushing the shoulder back only prevents it from getting worse.[/quote] You haven’t a clue.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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John, the differance is non belted cases dont have the belt stopping forward travel of the case in the chamber. Like all rimmed or semi rimmed cases as well? With virgin brass the issue still exists because you cant make the distance between the datum line and belt longer, which is what is needed to prevent the issue. No [bleep]. People have been telling you how it's done and it isn't a [bleep] mystery. A neck up, size down shoulder. After a firing its easy to keep the problem from getting worse Why? Because then you headspaced the cartridge off of the shoulder, not the belt. You can do that before you fire a case. but you cant stop it from happening during the first firing without a special reamer No, you can, you do it by headspacing off the pseudo shoulder and making the case fit the chamber, not a chamber that fits unfired cases. A false shoukder my even make the issue worse as your then forcing the case head into the bolt face and the belt off its seat, which makes the the case datum line even farther away from the chamber No, you've made the shoulder the datum line, not the belt, and you have "made the distance between the datum line and belt longer" without firing, by giving the case crush fit headspace at the front of the shoulder.
This isnt a one off deal ether as every belted magnum I have owmed has done it save for one 375 H&H. I think some cartridges just failed because even though they did everything they advertised, some people didn't or want to understand the advertising.... You are not grasping what causes the issue and are repeating the same crap thats been on the internet for years. Its called headspace, sherlock. You can have it on the shoulder before the first shot is fired, regardless of case type. The shoulder isnt blown forward, its already there, eliminating stretching caused by excess HEADSPACE. You apparently need pictures and measurements now..... Explain how your going to do that..sherlock? You cant change the fact belted magnum brass is set up to headspace on the belt in virgin form and that the shoulder is .020 or better off the chamber. I head space on the shoulder even with belted cases. This is as silly as the lungs and heart that you posted a picture of that had no hole in them and you still insisted that you hit the lungs and heart.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Outfitter
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Not possible with a piece of vrigin brass thats .020 shorter than the chamber.
Perhaps the deer in question died of a freaking heart attack? Or perhaps you are blind..
Last edited by BWalker; 03/20/18.
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Campfire Outfitter
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It's the difference between a hypothetical "problem" and a real problem...
It's just a matter of degree. And one can create the same problem with a rimless case if he FL sizes a little too much each time.
It should be painfully obvious that you are not going to convince anyone here....All you are doing now is beating your head against the wall and destroying your credibility.
If this were a significant problem, don't you think all the thousands of owners, shooting millions of rounds of of 7Mags, 300Mags, 338 Mags, 375 Mags, etc. over the last century or so would be screaming?
It should be painfully obvious that what I am saying is true.. did I say it was a huge issue? No, I said the rings drives me nuts and that the brass is weaker where it thins.
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Can't say that I saw any reference to the RCMs. They were a day late, and a dollar short, and are all but washed up now.
I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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BTW BobinNH had his custom 300 win mags chambers cut with a more generous belt clearance to prevent the issue I describe. Most if not all are cut this way, as I’ve seen belts longer than 15 thousandths over SAAMI spec. If cut dead on the bolt will not close. ]
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Tracker
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It's the difference between a hypothetical "problem" and a real problem...
It's just a matter of degree. And one can create the same problem with a rimless case if he FL sizes a little too much each time.
It should be painfully obvious that you are not going to convince anyone here....All you are doing now is beating your head against the wall and destroying your credibility.
If this were a significant problem, don't you think all the thousands of owners, shooting millions of rounds of of 7Mags, 300Mags, 338 Mags, 375 Mags, etc. over the last century or so would be screaming?
It should be painfully obvious that what I am saying is true.. did I say it was a huge issue? No, I said the rings drives me nuts and that the brass is weaker where it thins. I don't recall if you ever said it was a huge issue, but your first post said : "The real problem is factory chambers are long and brass is short". And then you proceeded with 16 posts to argue your point. And my post above mentioned the difference between a hypothetical problem and a real problem . If at some point you had acknowledged that it's not a huge problem, it just "drives you crazy", a lot of bandwidth could have been saved.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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It's the difference between a hypothetical "problem" and a real problem...
It's just a matter of degree. And one can create the same problem with a rimless case if he FL sizes a little too much each time.
It should be painfully obvious that you are not going to convince anyone here....All you are doing now is beating your head against the wall and destroying your credibility.
If this were a significant problem, don't you think all the thousands of owners, shooting millions of rounds of of 7Mags, 300Mags, 338 Mags, 375 Mags, etc. over the last century or so would be screaming?
It should be painfully obvious that what I am saying is true.. did I say it was a huge issue? No, I said the rings drives me nuts and that the brass is weaker where it thins. I don't recall if you ever said it was a huge issue, but your first post said : "The real problem is factory chambers are long and brass is short". And then you proceeded with 16 posts to argue your point. And my post above mentioned the difference between a hypothetical problem and a real problem . If at some point you had acknowledged that it's not a huge problem, it just "drives you crazy", a lot of bandwidth could have been saved. Well, it does lead to case head seperation if one does not know how to set up their FL dies, which based on the comments in this thread, there are more than a few. It also leads to bulging and makes for a weak spot in the case. But best of all the belt is useless in modern cartridges, so why deal with these issues? While your at it why dont you just admit I was right on the technical merits of what i said?
Last edited by BWalker; 03/20/18.
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BTW BobinNH had his custom 300 win mags chambers cut with a more generous belt clearance to prevent the issue I describe. Most if not all are cut this way, as I’ve seen belts longer than 15 thousandths over SAAMI spec. If cut dead on the bolt will not close. ] Interesting, I have had exactly one out of many factory guns that didnt produce the ring.. had a few customs too of which all of them did it save one chamber and then it didnt do it with lapua 300 win mag brass only. And if the chamber was cut such that headspace was at an absolute min the situation woupd only be worse. Now, will you please explain how you are getting virgin brass to headspace on the shoulder?
Last edited by BWalker; 03/20/18.
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Campfire Ranger
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John, the differance is non belted cases dont have the belt stopping forward travel of the case in the chamber. Like all rimmed or semi rimmed cases as well? With virgin brass the issue still exists because you cant make the distance between the datum line and belt longer, which is what is needed to prevent the issue. No [bleep]. People have been telling you how it's done and it isn't a [bleep] mystery. A neck up, size down shoulder. After a firing its easy to keep the problem from getting worse Why? Because then you headspaced the cartridge off of the shoulder, not the belt. You can do that before you fire a case. but you cant stop it from happening during the first firing without a special reamer No, you can, you do it by headspacing off the pseudo shoulder and making the case fit the chamber, not a chamber that fits unfired cases. A false shoukder my even make the issue worse as your then forcing the case head into the bolt face and the belt off its seat, which makes the the case datum line even farther away from the chamber No, you've made the shoulder the datum line, not the belt, and you have "made the distance between the datum line and belt longer" without firing, by giving the case crush fit headspace at the front of the shoulder.
This isnt a one off deal ether as every belted magnum I have owmed has done it save for one 375 H&H. I think some cartridges just failed because even though they did everything they advertised, some people didn't or want to understand the advertising.... You are not grasping what causes the issue and are repeating the same crap thats been on the internet for years. Its called headspace, sherlock. You can have it on the shoulder before the first shot is fired, regardless of case type. The shoulder isnt blown forward, its already there, eliminating stretching caused by excess HEADSPACE. You apparently need pictures and measurements now..... Explain how your going to do that..sherlock? You cant change the fact belted magnum brass is set up to headspace on the belt in virgin form and that the shoulder is .020 or better off the chamber. Take pictures of measured cases. Or, for the umpteenth time, you make the shoulder contact the front of the chamber. It eliminates case movement foreward and backward during firing. Just like a 225 Winchester, the 220 Swift and your once fired cases, you ignore the belt/rim and create headspace off of the front of the case. Headspace can be off .050 or more, it doesn't matter....
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Campfire Outfitter
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Good Lord. Just get a .30-06 and go hunting. Then you won't have to stress over all this belt nonsense.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Hawk1 is correct once a false shoulder is established the head space is correct and no ring in front of the case head.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I posted earlier that I was out of this thread, but another thought just occurred to me: I've sometimes noticed what appeared to be a bright stretch-ring just in front of the belt after resizing, but upon checking inside the case with a bent wire, couldn't feel any trace of thinning. It turned out the bright ring was caused by pressure-abrasion from the full-length die, where it resizes the case just above the belt.
I also realized that bwalker obsesses about the "datum line" (in this instance the front edge of the belt) so much he apparently doesn't comprehend that resetting the die so the cases headspace on the shoulder changes the "datum line" to the shoulder.
If neither one of those observations helps, and he continues to claim belted cases always suffer from separation anxiety, then I give up for a second time.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I posted earlier that I was out of this thread, but another thought just occurred to me: I've sometimes noticed what appeared to be a bright stretch-ring just in front of the belt after resizing, but upon checking inside the case with a bent wire, couldn't feel any trace of thinning. It turned out the bright ring was caused by pressure-abrasion from the full-length die, where it resizes the case just above the belt.
I also realized that bwalker obsesses about the "datum line" (in this instance the front edge of the belt) so much he apparently doesn't comprehend that resetting the die so the cases headspace on the shoulder changes the "datum line" to the shoulder.
If neither one of those observations helps, and he continues to claim belted cases always suffer from separation anxiety, then I give up for a second time.
I have yet to experience any head separation problems with belted cases.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I posted earlier that I was out of this thread, but another thought just occurred to me: I've sometimes noticed what appeared to be a bright stretch-ring just in front of the belt after resizing, but upon checking inside the case with a bent wire, couldn't feel any trace of thinning. It turned out the bright ring was caused by pressure-abrasion from the full-length die, where it resizes the case just above the belt.
I also realized that bwalker obsesses about the "datum line" (in this instance the front edge of the belt) so much he apparently doesn't comprehend that resetting the die so the cases headspace on the shoulder changes the "datum line" to the shoulder.
If neither one of those observations helps, and he continues to claim belted cases always suffer from separation anxiety, then I give up for a second time.
John, I am working right now, but I will take some pictures and some measurements for Hawk.. I only used datum line to describe the area in question thats .020 shorter..I am well aware of magnums headspace on the belt and I mentioned as much a few posts back. Im glad you brought this up though because like I have said all along its not possible to head space off the shoulder with virgin brass.
Last edited by BWalker; 03/21/18.
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Hawk1 is correct once a false shoulder is established the head space is correct and no ring in front of the case head.
The shoulder is still .020 or more farther back than the chamber..
Last edited by BWalker; 03/21/18.
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