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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,262 Likes: 14 |
I’m not a young buck anymore, approaching 50 and the idea that I shouldn’t have opportunities to hunt without doing some 20 mile death march is not necessarily appealing. Are you saying that you don't have those opportunities now? Are you saying that BHA wants to make all hunting backpack hunting? I must have missed that. I'm 60. I'll hunt the backcountry until I can't any more, and then be happy that there are still places where the young bucks (including my sons) can hike into, if they want. Just like I did.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 921 Likes: 2
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 921 Likes: 2 |
I'm a BHA member and my hunting transportation can a does include airplane, snow machine,truck ,boats of several types as well as backpack. I don't use a wheeler but I'm not against it in areas that it's already allowed because I understand not every can or wants to backpack hunt.
For me it's about keeping public lands open and available to sportsmen and to not have public land locked up by private corporations whatever your mode of transportation.Public land is one of the main reasons I chose to live in AK where there is lots of it.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 69,763 Likes: 38
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 69,763 Likes: 38 |
I'm a BHA member and my hunting transportation can a does include airplane, snow machine,truck ,boats of several types as well as backpack. I don't use a wheeler but I'm not against it in areas that it's already allowed because I understand not every can or wants to backpack hunt.
For me it's about keeping public lands open and available to sportsmen and to not have public land locked up by private corporations whatever your mode of transportation.Public land is one of the main reasons I chose to live in AK where there is lots of it. Please tell us all which private corporations have lock up what public lands? Are you only proposing keeping public lands open to sportsmen, or do you support the Multiple Use Act and it 's policies that keep public land open to everyone?
Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla!
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,205
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,205 |
I’m not a young buck anymore, approaching 50 and the idea that I shouldn’t have opportunities to hunt without doing some 20 mile death march is not necessarily appealing. Are you saying that you don't have those opportunities now? Are you saying that BHA wants to make all hunting backpack hunting? I must have missed that. I'm 60. I'll hunt the backcountry until I can't any more, and then be happy that there are still places where the young bucks (including my sons) can hike into, if they want. Just like I did. Keep in mind this was quite a few years ago but I’ll give you the example I’m referring to. As you head north from Fairbanks in Alaska they have an area called the dalton highway corridor. It runs from the Yukon river to Prudhoe bay which is about 350 miles of road. You cannot drive anything motorized off that road, gotta be on foot or on horseback and you can’t even fire a rifle within 5 miles of the road on either side, bow hunting only.. There was a push to open up parts of it to motorized access in the corridor and the BCHA fought against it. This is literally thousands of sq miles of awesome country for moose, bear, caribou, wolves and fur. Going east it goes to Canada and going west it goes to the ocean. Essentially an area damn near the size of colorado! I recall members of BCHA using the rebuttal of people should just get in better shape , keep it pristine and no atv’s or whatever. No one is hiking 10,15,20,25,30 ,50,80 etc miles off that road to shoot a moose and pack it out. That land was essentially untouchable and unused by anyone. This was also at a time where the state was turning over millions of acres of land to the native corps who then posted and enforced no trespassing on it. So many of us were hit directly by losing ground we were hunting in for years. Members of BCHA were on forums and at F&G meetings fighting it the whole time. That’s the extent of my perspective of the organization and I felt like their mission statement was contradicted by their actions, instead of fighting for public access they went all greeny against the ATV’s with the backpacker attitude when it made no sense under the circumstances.
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,993 Likes: 9
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,993 Likes: 9 |
I'm a BHA member and my hunting transportation can a does include airplane, snow machine,truck ,boats of several types as well as backpack. I don't use a wheeler but I'm not against it in areas that it's already allowed because I understand not every can or wants to backpack hunt.
For me it's about keeping public lands open and available to sportsmen and to not have public land locked up by private corporations whatever your mode of transportation.Public land is one of the main reasons I chose to live in AK where there is lots of it. Please tell us all which private corporations have lock up what public lands? Are you only proposing keeping public lands open to sportsmen, or do you support the Multiple Use Act and it 's policies that keep public land open to everyone? Honest question, have you ever read the MUSYA? Its pretty apparent that you never have or you didn't comprehend what it says. Where, in the act, does it say that every acre of land must remain open for every use under the sun? I'll save you the bother of looking, although you really should read it, it doesn't say that at all. You have a complete and total misunderstanding of the MUYSA, what it says, and what it does and how its applied. As to what corporations or individuals have locked up public lands, there are many examples, a big one is an entire swath of South Central Wyoming in checkerboard ownership.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,437 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,437 Likes: 1 |
Alaska Cub nailed it spot on. BHA wants, in the end, exclusive use of as much land as possible for those who think hiking or horsing in is the only acceptable recreational use, or land management means. It's all about keeping public lands open ONLY to a select group of "hunters and anglers." I won't say sportsmen because sportsmen believe in honesty and fair play.
And of course Buzz, the federal agency employee, would weigh in here that the Mulitple Use Act is honored by hike-in only on every possible acre. Certainly, MUSYA was not about maximum use of every possible acre, but it was intended to OPTIMIZE both economic and recreational outputs from public federal lands, an all-options approach. The idea was a productive, attractive landscape, PLUS prosperous local communities.
As for the "locked up" public lands in Wyoming, that's 150 year old Union Pacific checkerboard, railroad land grants. It is still checkerboard because the adjacent sections were too bony to homestead, even too expensive to buy outright when the GLO was still selling land. Further, for a long time there was pretty much open access across all of it for grazing, hunting, mineral development and exploration -- nobody felt it really necessary to either buy out UP and/or swap out lands and block up ownerships, it was everyone's empire and that was a good, even wonderful thing. While it's been a long, long time since my last adventure in the Red Desert, it was wonderful, and multiple use.
Things are, of course, different now. Union Pacific probably doesn't like public trespass and damage, so they are exercising their rights.
Up hills slow,
Down hills fast
Tonnage first and
Safety last.
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,274
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,274 |
Alaska Cub nailed it spot on. BHA wants, in the end, exclusive use of as much land as possible for those who think hiking or horsing in is the only acceptable recreational use, or land management means. It's all about keeping public lands open ONLY to a select group of "hunters and anglers." I won't say sportsmen because sportsmen believe in honesty and fair play.
And of course Buzz, the federal agency employee, would weigh in here that the Mulitple Use Act is honored by hike-in only on every possible acre. Certainly, MUSYA was not about maximum use of every possible acre, but it was intended to OPTIMIZE both economic and recreational outputs from public federal lands, an all-options approach. The idea was a productive, attractive landscape, PLUS prosperous local communities.
As for the "locked up" public lands in Wyoming, that's 150 year old Union Pacific checkerboard, railroad land grants. It is still checkerboard because the adjacent sections were too bony to homestead, even too expensive to buy outright when the GLO was still selling land. Further, for a long time there was pretty much open access across all of it for grazing, hunting, mineral development and exploration -- nobody felt it really necessary to either buy out UP and/or swap out lands and block up ownerships, it was everyone's empire and that was a good, even wonderful thing. While it's been a long, long time since my last adventure in the Red Desert, it was wonderful, and multiple use.
Things are, of course, different now. Union Pacific probably doesn't like public trespass and damage, so they are exercising their rights.
The friend of mine who is a BHA zealot (and I say that intentionally) always uses the line that about "my public lands". I think he gets it from BHA talking points. When he says this to me, I ask him where "his" public land ends and the guy who wants to snowmobile or ATV on that land begins. And, as always, it becomes a rant about how public lands are only to be used for certain purposes and in certain ways, which is where he loses me. I know what they are doing when they claim that they are "our" or "my" public lands, but then qualify that by excluding so many potential uses of the lands. It''s not about the public at all.
Eliminate qualified immunity and you'll eliminate cops who act like they are above the law.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 69,763 Likes: 38
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 69,763 Likes: 38 |
I'm a BHA member and my hunting transportation can a does include airplane, snow machine,truck ,boats of several types as well as backpack. I don't use a wheeler but I'm not against it in areas that it's already allowed because I understand not every can or wants to backpack hunt.
For me it's about keeping public lands open and available to sportsmen and to not have public land locked up by private corporations whatever your mode of transportation.Public land is one of the main reasons I chose to live in AK where there is lots of it. Please tell us all which private corporations have lock up what public lands? Are you only proposing keeping public lands open to sportsmen, or do you support the Multiple Use Act and it 's policies that keep public land open to everyone? Honest question, have you ever read the MUSYA? Its pretty apparent that you never have or you didn't comprehend what it says. Where, in the act, does it say that every acre of land must remain open for every use under the sun? I'll save you the bother of looking, although you really should read it, it doesn't say that at all. You have a complete and total misunderstanding of the MUYSA, what it says, and what it does and how its applied. As to what corporations or individuals have locked up public lands, there are many examples, a big one is an entire swath of South Central Wyoming in checkerboard ownership. Buzz, you are as fulla schidt as a Christmas turkey... No it doesn't say every acre. But it also by the same token doesn't say it CAN'T be every acre either, does it? The letter as well as the intent of multiple use is to utilize the land for multiple purpose in the areas described. Most people feel like it DOES apply to all public land. Aside from distinct designations, and the UNLAWFUL ones like your buddy Obama implemented illegally through misuse of the Antiquities Act. Don't patronize me by saying what I do and don't understand either. One thing I understand perfectly well were large tracts of public land illegally closed off to public access by douchebags like you in the US Forest Circus. For no other reason than they could... THAT'S the elitist BS that people refer to with BHA and it's followers and donors. The checkerboard lands you talk of were done way before you were glimmer in your daddy's eye, and there was a reason for that back then. If you know the history, perhaps you can enlighten others as to why the land was checkerboarded. As far as the legal owners being forced to let you or anyone else through their property just to access public land... well, that tramples on private property rights and freedom. Something you don't understand I'm sure..
Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla!
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 28,172
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 28,172 |
I was a member in WA for two years. I would say they are more a fraternal organization than anything. I think they overstate their power/effectiveness, and play the scare game a little too much. They have created a sort of "public land puritanism" whereby hunters are often "litmus tested" whether an animal was killed on public lands or not. If not, they are ridiculed. This happens on social media like mad. They have exhumed poor old Roosevelt to the point it's nauseating, and I don't think they are as transparent in their spending as they should be. BHA pays Tawney about 100K, spends another 100K on travel (?), and gets about 1.1 mil in contributions. Would like to see those detailed out. This would go a long way allay fears of the green decoy bit. Listening to Land in interviews, I'm weary of how often the "just being there' line is brought up. Yes, just being there is important, but that does nothing for fishers and hunters. And I think an unintended consequence of being a single-idea org is that while voting in public-land friendly people might help pubic lands, those same people are not as sympathetic to the interests of hunters. I think BHA needs to focus more on working with pro-hunting people who need to be more pro-public lands than the obverse. I can convince a more conservative person to be pro-public lands, than a big gov't liberal to be pro-gun or pro-hunting. I think this is why they get labelled green decoys as well. And I think it's shortsighted on BHA's part not to recognize that. Tawney has often said, "The name of the org is hunters and anglers," but forgets that the actions speak louder than words. They have yet to fully realize the enemy of your enemy is NOT your friend. Great post. They have no problem walking hand in hand with enviro-nazi groups. Now they are sticking their nose here in Minnesota copper nickel mining. They have written the same crap you can find on Friends of the Boundary Waters Wilderness. Let me tell you, Friends of the Boundary Waters Wilderness is no friend of hunters. Go back to Montana Tawney, the people that live and work on the range don't want you or your liberal BS here. What do you hunt on copper nickle mines?
Hunt with Class and Classics
Religion: A founder of The Church of Spray and Pray
Acquit v. t. To render a judgment in a murder case in San Francisco... EQUAL, adj. As bad as something else. Ambrose Bierce “The Devil's Dictionary”
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,993 Likes: 9
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,993 Likes: 9 |
Rockinbbar,
The intent of MUSYA is what matters, not what you, or "most people" FEEL. If you want to talk about feelings, well, there are folks that deal with that...I'm not one of them.
The MUSYA clearly states that some lands will be used for less than all of its resources, and the harmonious and coordinated management of the various resources, each with the other, without impairment to the productivity of the land, with equal consideration being given to the relative values of the various resources and not necessarily the combination of uses that will give the greatest dollar return, or the greatest unit output.
Under MUSYA, the FS is required to consider all uses, and how management decisions will impact things like water quality, timber, recreation, fish and wildlife, range.
I can tell you for a fact, that water quality, recreation, and fish and wildlife needs were not equally considered in regard to management decisions and actions under MUSYA. Lots of examples of that.
I would like to see a comprehensive list, from you, regarding the "large tracts of public land" that the FS has closed off public access to. I'll be waiting for your list...state by state is preferable.
The question you asked wasn't about the "why" private landowners have locked the public out of their public lands, just that you needed proof of it happening. Happens all the time, millions of acres are public lands are locked out by private landowners/corporations, etc. Many roads, even those with prescriptive easements are illegally gated by public landowners (see Crazy Mountains in MT as classic example).
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 25,557 Likes: 14
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 25,557 Likes: 14 |
I'm a BHA member and my hunting transportation can a does include airplane, snow machine,truck ,boats of several types as well as backpack. I don't use a wheeler but I'm not against it in areas that it's already allowed because I understand not every can or wants to backpack hunt.
For me it's about keeping public lands open and available to sportsmen and to not have public land locked up by private corporations whatever your mode of transportation.Public land is one of the main reasons I chose to live in AK where there is lots of it. Please tell us all which private corporations have lock up what public lands? Are you only proposing keeping public lands open to sportsmen, or do you support the Multiple Use Act and it 's policies that keep public land open to everyone? In Utah the Mormon Church.... Montana is getting bought by the Oprah’s and Ted Turners of the world and it wouldn’t take many of them to buy every inch of decent ground in our 3rd largest state. I’m for keeping public lands public and being able to get away from the noise and beer can pollution and ruts and general disrespect for the land that ATV’s and other motorized vehicles bring. Just like I enjoy drifting certain rivers in a driftboat for the peace and quiet they offer and get annoyed by the jetsled ass holes that have no business on that water. Other bigger rivers that are more conducive to a sled shouldn’t find the guys in driftboats thinking they own the hole or the river by anchoring in it all day and should continue down river after fishing it for awhile. Selling or giving the states OUR land is a disaster in the making and if that happens we’ll all be using the Texas model of “hunting”. I prefer to have choices like whether to hike my ass off or whether to hunt over a feeder. Whether to fish from a drifter or a sled. Some places an ATV is acceptable and some places they have NO business. Before the bullshitt red herring of “I’m disabled” comes up just let me say that exceptions and allowances SHOULD be made for the disabled. If your disability is that you’re too fat to hike in then toofuckingbad, lose some weight or find a horse willing to haul you and your donuts in. 😁 It’s nice to be able to really get away from the noise into unspoiled country and the satisfaction of having escaped to the true wilderness.
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
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~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927 |
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 25,557 Likes: 14
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 25,557 Likes: 14 |
What do you hunt on copper nickle mines?
Tweakers? 😁
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
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~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 69,763 Likes: 38
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 69,763 Likes: 38 |
Rockinbbar,
The intent of MUSYA is what matters, not what you, or "most people" FEEL. If you want to talk about feelings, well, there are folks that deal with that...I'm not one of them.
I would like to see a comprehensive list, from you, regarding the "large tracts of public land" that the FS has closed off public access to. I'll be waiting for your list...state by state is preferable.
I believe I mentioned the "intent" of the MUSYA. Perhaps "feel" was the wrong word. "Interpret" would have been a better one. But, you keep relying on twisting things around to suit your agenda.. You want to see a comprehensive list... state by state... Do I look like your secretary? I thought we had already discussed your patronizing, condescending mannerism. Perhaps that is the reason that people think you are eletist douchebags? What I can tell you about closed tracts of Forest Circus lands is that I started getting people driving into my ranch in NM asking if they could cross my land onto Natl Forest land. Why? Because the Forest Circus had closed, locked and stopped access to the land beyond my property boundary. From two different roads. Really? Yes, they are closed and locked. OK> call them and tell them to open the gates. They were open a couple weeks before hunting season. This went on for two or three years. Hunters asking to get through my land because the Circus had closed the gates just prior to hunting season. I made some calls to a US representative that I knew pretty well, and the gates became open again. My neighbor, who worked in management for the Circus told me that orders came down that they weren't supposed to lock those gates anymore, but as soon as it blew over, they intended to lock them again. Yeah, they serve the public interest alright. 
Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla!
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,993 Likes: 9
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,993 Likes: 9 |
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,262 Likes: 14
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,262 Likes: 14 |
It’s nice to be able to really get away from the noise into unspoiled country and the satisfaction of having escaped to the true wilderness.
Not only that, but the existence of large tracts of public land where any average joe can just pick up and go hunt is pretty much unique to North America. That some who call themselves outdoorsmen would piss it away is remarkable.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 69,763 Likes: 38
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 69,763 Likes: 38 |
Oh Buzz. You are such a superhero posting all those pictures.
And yes, people should get pissed off when their access roads are closed by douchebags just to be douchebags.
Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla!
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,848 Likes: 3
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,848 Likes: 3 |
Access restriction is fantastic for those that choose to access in the accepted way. The problem arises when those placing the restrictions gore your ox.
Bareback unshod horseback only, with mandatory pack in-pack out for horse waste sounds reasonable to me. Wool and leather only for hikers, no synthetics. Canvas tent only.
I can pull it off, why can't you be reasonable and aquiesce to my utterly reasonable restrictions on your public land access?
You probably just need to be in better shape....
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 69,763 Likes: 38
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 69,763 Likes: 38 |
Access restriction is fantastic for those that choose to access in the accepted way. The problem arises when those placing the restrictions gore your ox.
Bareback unshod horseback only, with mandatory pack in-pack out for horse waste sounds reasonable to me. Wool and leather only for hikers, no synthetics. Canvas tent only.
I can pull it off, why can't you be reasonable and aquiesce to my utterly reasonable restrictions on your public land access?
You probably just need to be in better shape....
The problems arise when the restrictions get discriminatory.
Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla!
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,291 Likes: 24
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,291 Likes: 24 |
I am neither for nor against BHA, as I honestly don't know much about them and what they support outside of public access, but I think a lot of people on these boards would do well to attend a BLM or Forest Service public meeting: specifically one for developing a Resource Management Plan or Forest Plan. The controversy is mind boggling, and the comments from the public are telling; both "sides" giving comments like "there's a special place in hell for you" or "you're the Devil's whore"...
Get involved in these planning meetings and I will bet people will begin to understand why multiple use means....multiple use. Just don't go to those meetings with a biased mindset towards your "side". Everyone thinks that their favorite resource is the most important and should be given priority over everything else. Please realize that managers have to a) consider all of those concerns (yes, even those you don't agree with) and b) what the laws and courts require them to do. I'll agree that some federal managers are absolutely incompetent and biased, but there's just as many in the state and local governments and in the private sector.
Another thing to realize is that lots of seasonal closures to roads and other activities is because of extreme pressure from the state government...not necessarily (and quite often not at all) from the federal agency. Shed hunting in WY west of the continental divide is banned in winter by the state government, but lots of people blame the BLM or Forest Service simply because they don't understand how the system works. I'll guess that similar situations exist in other states.
Last edited by T_Inman; 05/12/18. Reason: clarify
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