Home Forums Birds & Dogs Shotguns Light recoiling 20ga for small stature shooter with short LOP ?

Shot my first round of Sporting Clays today. Accompanied my middle daughter whose company sponsored the shoot. I loaned her my son's Rem 870 Youth model in 20ga. Despite having zero interest in shooting or hunting growing up, she actually enjoyed the shoot. And would like to do again ! Only complaint was that the youth model 12.5" LOP still felt a bit too long for her. Poking around to see what kind of early Christmas present might be appropriate...

Any recommendations for shorter LOP, or adjustable LOP, shotguns, preferably semi-auto ? Especially something that might be more form fitting for a woman ? And per the title, preferably 20ga with good ergos to reduce felt recoil ?

Thank you !

Personally I'd get a Remington 1100 or 11-87 and shorten the stock. If you can get one with a 26" barrel then all the better. Shortening the stock will mean that the head is placed closer to the receiver (a good thing as the distance between eye and cheek bone tends to be shorter in youngsters and females). Closer to the receiver is good because it will bring the eye up in relation to the rib. Drill a couple of holes in the stock and put tight fitting dowels in before cutting, that way it's easier to line up the off cut when you want to put it back on to make the stock longer in the future.

Recently bought a Mossberg SA 20 Youth for my youngest son. Honestly didn’t expect much as it’s a lower cost Turkish gun, but I’ve been super impressed with this shotgun. Gas operated, light recoil, good chokes, light overall weight, synthetic or wood stock options. Looks like a simplified Beretta 390 inside. It’s really well-done for the money and best of all it’s been 100% reliable so far with a 10yr old running it. Close to 500 rounds through it and no issues.

Appreciate the input. Got an 11-87 Compact 20ga synthetic (24" ?) inbound. The guy who ordered it for me also has a wood butt stock for it that I can carve and whittle on until we get a comfortable fit. Will just paint the wood stock flat black after we get all of the fitting done.

Good move. The Remington autos are just about the softest shooting autos out there.

Let me add another factor. Winchester makes a Low Noise Low Recoil load. The velocity is just under 1000fps. It sets the triggers on my Superposed and operates the action on my Benelli. It should work just fine in an 1100 which I would also recommend for her.

Best,

Jack

Mossberg SA-20 Bantam Youth model has 12.5" LOP , 24" barrel, synthetic stock, street price under $500?
Mark

Franchi 720 I comes with a shorter LOP. And it is a soft shooting gas gun too.

A bit late to the party but maybe this will help for others.

A youth shotgun is all too often a poor choice for women/girls- they need more than a shorter stock to get a decent fit. Women have higher cheek bones than males which necessitates a higher comb. Many women these days are near the size of the fictitious "average male" used for stocks which makes length a nonissue for many.

I am partial to Beretta 390/391/whatever as women's guns but the Remington 1100/11-87 is also a good choice. In the 1100/11-87 20 ga one can swap a 740/742 rifle stock with Monte Carlo to get the raised comb and a bit shorter length. Both guns have the same receiver dimensions. Having the higher comb is the most important feature to me as that is harder to make higher. The vast majority of the time the factory height is pretty good but I have had to lower it a couple times and raise it once. The latter was minor an I was able to do it with shims.

If a shorter length is needed one can trim some length off but not much as the tube for the recoil spring limits how much can be removed. If one uses light shot charges and low velocity shells a thin recoil pad coupled with maximum stock removal can shorten things a good inch or so.

This works with the post 1977 20 ga models too if using the 760 stock.

Do you plan on reloading or buying ammo? 3/4 oz. reloads will function in a 20 ga 1100 or 1187.

http://bumpbuster.blogspot.com/


DMc

The diagram has some decent suggestions along with some that are better designed to remove money from the wallet.

Starting with the butt, a well designed recoil pad is probably the most cost effective addition. I like the Kick-eez as it handles recoil well and it is heavier than most which adds weight to the gun which decreases recoil. The weight also helps to balance out any weight added to the front end which will be covered later.

The various compression buttplates are often seen in the pre-mount games but not nearly as common in the low gun games due to occasional problems with gun mount. I've shot several different makes of these additions and they have not been as desirable as a plain stock for me. My wife liked hers at first but as her abilities increased she gravitated to a regular stock and the compression stock was sold to fund anew gun. A benefit is the device also adds weight to the gun which is good for reducing recoil in and of itself.

An in stock recoil reducer works well as it adds weight to the gun. The negative is the weight is to the rear and can change the handling characteristics of the gun. If adding a mag cap weight and/or longer barrel this may help move the balance rearward if desired. For a much cheaper option, a piece of PVC pipe capped on both ends and filled with lead shot works as well as those filled with mercury.

The soft comb is most effective when the stock is not correctly fitted. With proper stock height and pitch a soft comb is not nearly as effective. Some claim a soft comb is more uncomfortable as it grips the face upon recoil and can chafe over time. I haven't experienced that myself but I can see it as I find that to occur with "rubber" grips on handguns. I personally most experience an improvement as the comb is raised to better fit that individual's face and a similar result would occur with a proper comb height.

The gun fitting is the best proposition and would do more to reduce felt recoil than all the rest of the suggestions put together. The only drawbacks are cost and finding someone who actually knows what they are doing. Far too many are stock "butchers" who charge a lot to give you a poorly planned and executed stock. I have known many to have been taken in by such hacks so careful vetting is in order. Luckily, most sporting clays instructors can get you a good idea what is needed if not a rough fit which will be closer than what the factory provided.

A gas operated action will not decrease the total amount of recoil but it will spread that recoil out over a much longer time thereby making it seem to have less recoil. It is generally a heavier action type which again helps reduce actual recoil.

Light loads are another very cost effective method of reducing recoil. Lowering the velocity is one option as is lowering the shot charge. Doing both reduces recoil noticeably. I like staying in the 1200 -1250 fps range as this seems to correlate well to steel shot loads I often use. To keep recoil low (and to save money) I load 7/8 oz in my 12 ga guns and 3/4 oz in the 20. I do not notice a change in scores with the 12 ga unless I shoot a true FITASC course but I do see a difference in the 20 ga on moderately hard courses. Long shots and especially on rabbits whether on the ground or as a chondelle can be more difficult to break with the lighter shot charge weights.

Lengthening forcing cones to reduce recoil is a farce, save your money if you are looking to reduce recoil. Lengthening forcing cones is more effective at reducing shot deformation as the shot leaves the shell and enters the barrel but even then it is limited. For shot sizes smaller than #6, lengthening forcing cones has little effect at best and no measurable effect most of the time. It really begins to show up with shot of #4 and larger, particularly if the the load is buffered. Luckily, the overwhelming majority of shotguns produced in the last couple of decades have had forcing cones lengthened so one can save themselves some dough by ignoring this option. The minimum length a forcing cone should be is 3/4" though one can get them up to 3" if desired. No real change occurs after 3/4" though many gunsmith's will insist on longer. The main reason is one can't easily see a change under 1.5" so gunsmith's do longer so the customer feels they got their money's worth. The longer the cone, the easier it is to go off track which can affect patterns and point of impact which is another consideration to consider.

A weighted mag cap may or not be of benefit, at least at first. Depending on the shooter, adding weight in front of the forward hand may be fatiguing if the muscles used are not conditioned. I replaced the aluminum mag caps with steel ones in my wife's 390s after she built up her muscles to give the gun a little forward weight. This was about a 2 oz change which was a better fit than the 4 oz mag weight I first bought. This was after I replaced the 28" barrel with a 30" barrel as the weight was the same and getting the weight further out helped tame a couple other potential problems such as swing and muzzle rise. Given a choice, I would add barrel length to a competition gun over a weight whenever possible.

Barrel porting is another means of removing money from the shooter's wallet. Ports help with lowering muzzle rise but that is more a problem with poor fitting guns. Ports work best when muzzle pressures are high and gas volume is large for the bore size. That is why it works well with rifles and pistols but not so much with shotguns. If one wanted to reduce recoil by porting, muzzle games would need to be directed rearward rather than the much more prevalent outward common in virtually all manufacturer's guns and many aftermarket providers. What gains one might see are lost on all but the top 1% of shooters as the rest have other issues preventing us from reaching elite status for the possible one bird a ported gun might give us.

Besides, porting and lengthening forcing cones remove material from the gun, which is weight, and it is gun weight that is a key factor in the amount of recoil one sees. The amount may be minimal but it is real.

So, to recap, a good recoil pad, light shot weights and lower velocity are the easy ways to reduce recoil. Gun fit will not reduce actual recoil but it will reduce the perceived recoil. Using a gas operated semi-auto will also help with perceived recoil though the total amount of recoil will be the same.

Benelli Montefeltro (and perhaps Beretta- both are Beretta produced offerings) comes with shims that raise or lower the stock comb. They now include cast on/off in the mix. Benelli is inertia and not quite as soft recoiling as gas guns, but never the less, not bad. DMc's illustration above has merit, but I see no need for the shown butt and a recoil reducer. Pick your poison, one or the other.

There is truth to woodmaster81's observation that not all young ladies need shorter stocks. People are getting larger. I have a 13 y.o. Granddaughter that stands 5-9 already. She shoots her aunts unmodified Benelli Legacy 28 ga with no problems, and S-I-L only buys high velocity 3/4 oz loads. I intend to pass on my Browning Superposed 20 ga Pigeon Grade to her. I would hate to think of cutting that gun....

Best wishes,

Jack

Weighted magazine cap.

I have a 12 ga. magazine cap, "Graco" recoil reducer that I like. You can feel the difference in recoil when you remove it.






DMc

I love shooting the sub-gauges on the skeet fields. I'm also a big fan of Winchester 101's. When this little filly popped up on GunBroker for cheap, I snagged it! Never dreamed I'd have a compression butt plate but one came on this .410. Can't imagine why anyone would spend the money putting one on a 410, but as true as it is, rarely do people that customize their guns, ever get their money back. Someone said that compression butt plates were helpful when shooting rounds where doubles were thrown from every station. Whatever. It's a fun gun to shoot and the compression butt plate doesn't bother me at all.






DMc
PS: It's a fugly piece of work too, right up there with poly chokes, but who cares?

I have a Winchester SX 3 that reliably shoots light or heavy 20ga loads. Stock adjusts for cast, height,etc. Recoil seems quite soft to me.

Agree, Rem 1100.

I used to shoot a lot of sporting clays. Now not so much. But, enough to have a decent opinion about guns to use.
I think that IN THE LONG RUN, which included the short run, an over -under is the better way to go for a number of reasons, including the most important one of all, which is safety. I was always nervous being around folks who had single barrel autos because I didn't readily see what was going on with the gun, whereas with the broke open over unders I knew what was going on with everybody's gun.

I used a Browning Citori Sporting Clays model in 12 guage. I don't know if they made them in 20 guage or not, but if they did and you could find one in decent shape I would highly recommend it. If the buttstock is too long have it cut off and fitted to your daughter.

I agree that an O/U broken open is safest but it's not the easiest to use for a kid.

My kids like semi-auto's and lighter weight guns seems to be easier to manage.

I looked at the following:
Mossberg SA-20
Weatherby SA8
Remington 11-87
Stoeger M3020

And ended up with one 11-87 and three M3020's and all have been great, no issues.

Beretta 390,391 is softer than the Rem's, and I have all the rem's.

Beretta A400 in a 20ga would be a perfect child's and woman's gun, have the stock cut to fit LOP.

Hard to believe how little this shotgun kicks.

I do not like most youth guns, they seem to have too much recoil, and I hate pumps for starters. I started my daughter, first learning the nomenclature of the shotgun, and lots of dry drills. Than she started to shoot my Model 1100 Remington, 20 24 inch barrel, she LOVED that little gun, and could not wait to shoot it..... the stock fit her well

whatever you get, it needs to fit her

I have 3 but can never seem to get them all in the picture together. Anyway, mine starting hunting at this age...



...and here they are now:



Two of them shoot auto's, one is an 1100 20, and the other an 11-48, and since 11-48's have a recoiling barrel, they kick a bit more, so we went with a 28ga.



My youngest is a true Daddy's girl and oddly, she outgrew both of her sister's stature wise.
She only wanted to shoot what I shoot, and that's an 870. I love them. So I scaled one down in 28ga for her.



Then I personalized their shotguns for them, which they really liked!

Family's are a great thing!

Just like the "Family" here on the Fire....


DMc

Great pics of family, job well done!!

TY Sir..

Just get a gun that fits her. I haven't read all through every post,but what matters most is that the gun fits her. It doesn't matter what action it is,as long as she is OK with it. Don't buy a pump if she just insists she doesn't want one. Just get whatever she likes,as long as it fits her.

Main thing is that she won't know what fits her. You will have to talk her through it.If you don't know how to tell,do a little research and find out. Show her some different guns and tell her the advantages and disadvantages of each,AND LET HER DECIDE.

Yes,a gas operated action will have slightly less recoil, but I HAVE FOUND THAT FIT AND A GOOD RECOIL PAD,WITH A GOOD SHOOTING VEST, combined with a gun that fits her,and that she likes, will matter much more to her shooting, and shooting comfort,than which action she shoots.

If anyone gets into competition where they are shooting thousands of rounds ,then the discussion of which action becomes relevant.

Perfect fit....









.

Good job, DMc....

Jack

Thanks Jack,

It's a hoot building these personalized shotguns for the kiddos.

These are the son-in-laws shotguns.

My oldest SIL works for Arctic Cat and their colors were green & black before Textron bought them.



Son-in-law #2 is a lefty..



SIL #3 prefers an auto..





...and a couple more.




DMc

Another option would be the Franchi Affinity compact in 20 gauge.

Start with lessons from a sporting clay shooter that can teach. He/she will have a reasonably good handle on how to make the 1100 fit which comes secondary to her being taught proper technique. The gun can fit, but if one doesn't know how to take advantage of it little will be gained.

I see it all the time with adults. The gun fits, but they don't know how to use it.

it is no different than with a rifle. You can have the most accurate rig ever made, but if you don't have the skills you won't be hitting much at LR with any consistency.

Raising this back up. Shotgun came in. Finally fitted wood furniture to it. Cycles hi brass without issue. At this point, will not even eject low brass field loads. From reading on the web sounds like some 1100's when new need a certain number of high velocity rounds thru them to break in or wear in. Apart from burning up a flat of hi brass loads, any suggestions or recommendations ?

I have pulled it apart and confirmed that the piston, piston seal, barrel seal activator (20 ga), and O-ring are installed in the proper order and orientation. The original barrel was about 20". I replaced it with a Remington 26" barrel. Confirmed that the replacement barrel has two gas ports just like the original barrel. Same issue when I swap back to the original barrel, so, not thinking that the issue is directly related to the barrel length.

All constructive suggestions to get this shotgun to cycle properly with low velocity field/target loads greatly appreciated. Thank you !

Sell it, buy a 391 12ga and shoot light loads. No handicap very light recoil and cycles anything. That 20ga kicks harder then the 391 in 12ga will.

A finicky 1100 is a continuous source of frustration. Take MCH's advice and find a Beretta.

I've mentioned the Beretta A300 before as my daughter used hers for trap before getting an O/U. They can be found for reasonable prices, in wood or plastic, have adjustable LOP, decent triggers, and forend weights are available. Hers has been perfectly reliable and I find it relatively soft shooting. We used a stick-on cheek riser pad that worked great.

You've put some time and money into this project. If it was mine I'd find a gunsmith, probably older, that knows 1100s and have it checked out before dumping it. Could be something simple. The 1100's an old design but IMO is still plenty adequate for the average hunter and occasional clays shooter. There's a lot of shooters still using them. None of the semiauto brands are perfect. Check the various shotgun forums, there's plenty of non 1100 semiauto owners with complaints.