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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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For some whom others label as "religious" and whose tenets are challenged on the basis of that label, the fundament of their beliefs and practices are not related to a "church" organization and/or a human codified religious doctrine. Their tenets and practices are based on a personal relationship with a God and Savior. Build a case - and related accusations - against that fact, if you will.
The moral tenets of some are derived from such a relationship - while the same or similar moral tenets of others are based on other factors. Nonetheless, those moral tenets are applied to the conduct of lives, and are important. One of those tenets pertains to the murder of defenseless other beings.
There has been a lot of obfuscatory and PC rhetoric applied by those who wish to avoid or deflect from the obvious - like the vapid "right to choose". Of course a woman has the right to control her own body. So be it. That includes the choice keeping it clean and healthy, or being filthy and abusing herself with all sorts of harmful stuff, or doing things somewhere in between. So be it. That includes her decisions about whether or not to enable her pregnancy - or avoid it. So be it. It's her choice
But - does the woman have a right to murder an individual living being she chose to enable - a being that is not herself? For convenience, Hitler murdered many, many Jews - and others. For convenience, Stalin murdered a whole bunch of folks. Pol Pot did much the same - and so have many other powerful figures. Yes - those murders are grand-scale events of murder for convenience. Is a single murder for convenience any less egregious?
Given the current legal frameworks, pregnant women in many places can choose to murder for convenience. How is her convenience any different or more significant than that of Hitler, or Stalin, or Pol Pot, or ??? It appears that the act of willful abortion is as much a mark of destruction for the woman as it is for the child she murders. As a society, we have become complicit. Anyone care to try to form that into "religiosity"?
Okay, now explain how you can justify forcing a woman to bear a child she does not want...it is not your body. That is the problem here, some still see women as chattel. I personally do not want to see abortion become common place and most definitely do not want it to raise it's ugly head in my family...but it is NOT MY choice to make. I don't wanna work, but I sure as hell won't use it as an excuse to kill someone. Of course if I don't wanna work, I will have repercussions. I would EXPECT them. Being responsible/cause/effect 101.... Everyone out there in La-La land breaking windows, dindunuffins, someone gimme a short term fix for my decisions, so I don't have to deal with the repercussions. If it was some dude driving drunk and running over a preschool class for what he did with his body, I would suspect we'd be looking for a short rope and his wallet. They might not even be religious zealots.... Sorry, amidst a sea of prophylactics and pills, designated drivers, I fail to see the whole "chattel" connection. Refusing to allow women control over their own bodies is treating them as chattel/property. And as for the rest of that...it has absolutely nothing to do with anything other than a woman's right to control over her own body. That is it period.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786 |
Okay, now explain how you can justify forcing a woman to bear a child she does not want...it is not your body.
That is the problem here, some still see women as chattel.
I don't know if you heard this or not, it's pretty hi-tek stuff, but we figured out what causes pregnancy! It's called "sex" and every woman knows about it. They know it causes pregnancy. So, unless a woman was raped, she invited a child to form in her womb. Funny how nothing is ever said about the men that put it there...it always the woman's fault and it is always the woman that has to bear the burden, well guess what, not all of them want to.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2015
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Violent crime has dropped since Roe v. Wade, if anything, it's lead to a more orderly, not a less orderly society. Did anyone notice this baseless and deliberately misleading attempt to state "cause and effect" !! Yes, I noticed that. As if violent crime is the only measure of societal well being. All the while ignoring these instances of murder. How about we add those to the numbers and see where we are at? This might be an interesting time to check the crime stats in Ireland over the same period. My guess is they mirrored the trends AS's study pointed to, except for, of course, the number of abortions.
Politics is War by Other Means
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Nope, I just hold certain truths to be "self-evident". The fact that some view it as a religious persecution and not universal is either a commie, someone with an agenda, a Nazi or someone with a guilty conscience. If it doesnt apply to you, you dont have a problem with it.
I realize this is about Ireland, but I dont have any delusions that plenty have a problem with it even in my town.
If your position was so "self evident" it wouldn't be the minority position in Ireland and the U.S. Its not my "position", its THE basis for independence; something I believe in and something yourself uses as a cloak for self-service. Question, how is the man's argument "self serving"? How does a person accept the Bill Of Rights or the Declaration of Independence when he doesn't believe in their foundation? Of course his comment of "your position" pretty much gives it away, at least to me.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Let women decide what to do with their bodies, not a bunch of meddling men thumping a bible. But when she has the baby guess who is on the hook!! You can't have it both ways, if the man is responsible after birth then he needs a say before birth also. Just saying . Cheers NC
don't judge until you have walked a mile in other persons' moccasins'
SUM QUOD SUM........HOMINEM TE ESSE MEMENTO
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
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For some whom others label as "religious" and whose tenets are challenged on the basis of that label, the fundament of their beliefs and practices are not related to a "church" organization and/or a human codified religious doctrine. Their tenets and practices are based on a personal relationship with a God and Savior. Build a case - and related accusations - against that fact, if you will.
The moral tenets of some are derived from such a relationship - while the same or similar moral tenets of others are based on other factors. Nonetheless, those moral tenets are applied to the conduct of lives, and are important. One of those tenets pertains to the murder of defenseless other beings.
There has been a lot of obfuscatory and PC rhetoric applied by those who wish to avoid or deflect from the obvious - like the vapid "right to choose". Of course a woman has the right to control her own body. So be it. That includes the choice keeping it clean and healthy, or being filthy and abusing herself with all sorts of harmful stuff, or doing things somewhere in between. So be it. That includes her decisions about whether or not to enable her pregnancy - or avoid it. So be it. It's her choice
But - does the woman have a right to murder an individual living being she chose to enable - a being that is not herself? For convenience, Hitler murdered many, many Jews - and others. For convenience, Stalin murdered a whole bunch of folks. Pol Pot did much the same - and so have many other powerful figures. Yes - those murders are grand-scale events of murder for convenience. Is a single murder for convenience any less egregious?
Given the current legal frameworks, pregnant women in many places can choose to murder for convenience. How is her convenience any different or more significant than that of Hitler, or Stalin, or Pol Pot, or ??? It appears that the act of willful abortion is as much a mark of destruction for the woman as it is for the child she murders. As a society, we have become complicit. Anyone care to try to form that into "religiosity"?
Okay, now explain how you can justify forcing a woman to bear a child she does not want...it is not your body. That is the problem here, some still see women as chattel. I personally do not want to see abortion become common place and most definitely do not want it to raise it's ugly head in my family...but it is NOT MY choice to make. I don't wanna work, but I sure as hell won't use it as an excuse to kill someone. Of course if I don't wanna work, I will have repercussions. I would EXPECT them. Being responsible/cause/effect 101.... Everyone out there in La-La land breaking windows, dindunuffins, someone gimme a short term fix for my decisions, so I don't have to deal with the repercussions. If it was some dude driving drunk and running over a preschool class for what he did with his body, I would suspect we'd be looking for a short rope and his wallet. They might not even be religious zealots.... Sorry, amidst a sea of prophylactics and pills, designated drivers, I fail to see the whole "chattel" connection. Refusing to allow women control over their own bodies is treating them as chattel/property. And as for the rest of that...it has absolutely nothing to do with anything other than a woman's right to control over her own body. That is it period. Is someone keeping them "off their backs" that I don't know about? The fact is there is about 100 "choices" no government has anything to do with before the killing of offspring, as far as I know. I do know I have every right to lop off my hand, but damned if it would keep me out of the asylum....
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
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Let women decide what to do with their bodies, not a bunch of meddling men thumping a bible. But when she has the baby guess who is on the hook!! You can't have it both ways, if the man is responsible after birth then he needs a say before birth also. Just saying . Cheers NC So, you genuinely believe that gives you the right to dictate what she can or can not do with her body?
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Now you're dissembling. Does a woman have a right to shoot heroine on the steps of the Capitol? It's her own body, right? Plenty of examples where law restricts what a person can do with his body. And the argument is fallacious anyway because it assumes the fetus has no human status or it would be a woman's right to choose what to do with someone else's body.
The point is at what point do human rights accrue and on what basis. When is that thing a person. The answer I don't know. But I wouldn't want to take a chance of killing a person just because I guessed wrong. Here if I fire a shot in the air in the general direction of downtown and managed to kill someone (small town, infinitesimal chance of that happening) the charge is homicide.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 14,723 Likes: 2 |
So, you genuinely believe that gives you the right to dictate what she can or can not do with her body?
A pregnant woman has already said what she is doing with her body.
Politics is War by Other Means
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786 |
Is someone keeping them "off their backs" that I don't know about?
The fact is there is about 100 "choices" no government has anything to do with before the killing of offspring, as far as I know.
I do know I have every right to lop off my hand, but damned if it would keep me out of the asylum....
Irrelevant, you are still insisting on your right to dictate what a woman can or can not do with her own body.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786 |
Question, how is the man's argument "self serving"?
How does a person accept the Bill Of Rights or the Declaration of Independence when he doesn't believe in their foundation? Of course his comment of "your position" pretty much gives it away, at least to me. Odd, I took his meaning to be your stance on abortion and your inability to allow that women have a right to self-governance of their own bodies. And that second bit is as fundamental as you can possibly be.
Last edited by JSTUART; 05/28/18.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958 |
Is someone keeping them "off their backs" that I don't know about?
The fact is there is about 100 "choices" no government has anything to do with before the killing of offspring, as far as I know.
I do know I have every right to lop off my hand, but damned if it would keep me out of the asylum....
Irrelevant, you are still insisting on your right to dictate what a woman can or can not do with her own body. Irrelevant? First, I don't have a right to dictate to anyone, and a woman who wants ten thousand choices and one more to kill doesn't either, capiche?
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786 |
First, I don't have a right to dictate to anyone, and a woman who wants ten thousand choices and one more to kill doesn't either, capiche?
You have just contradicted your second point with your first. And the eye-tie stuff is sort of wasted on me.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786 |
Well goodnight gentlemen I am off to bed.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958 |
Question, how is the man's argument "self serving"?
How does a person accept the Bill Of Rights or the Declaration of Independence when he doesn't believe in their foundation? Of course his comment of "your position" pretty much gives it away, at least to me. Odd, I took his meaning to be your stance on abortion and your inability to allow that women have a right to self-governance of their own bodies. And that second bit is as fundamental as you can possibly be. JSTUART, please tell me what my (or your) government would do to a "self-governing" individual who chooses to lop off a body part here and there.....or smoke crack while pregnant. Pure B.S.. GMAFB. Yeah, its my inability to appreciate "freedom".....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958 |
First, I don't have a right to dictate to anyone, and a woman who wants ten thousand choices and one more to kill doesn't either, capiche?
You have just contradicted your second point with your first. And the eye-tie stuff is sort of wasted on me. Contradiction? Not really. I'm not petitioning killing anyone...but then in the U.S., for now, we have God given rights, not granted by men, or if it makes you feel better, women either.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 8,136 |
It's really nice to see the ole' white folks worried about minority children, and the health of the Mom possibly turning tricks to supply her heroine addiction lol.
May as well start on them running shoes for the lil' Mexicans crossing the border next,,,,sweet bunch of guys.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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but then in the U.S., for now, we have God given rights, not granted by men, or if it makes you feel better, women either. Show me where God grants you 2nd amendment rights in the bible...please.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,769 Likes: 20 |
Sounds like you're trying to convince yourself of something. Unlike yourself I know well what my convictions are, and I damn well make sure I live by them...I do not however feel the need to make others do as I want. Unless they're unable to protest what's being done to them. Still the same argument the left spruiks when they want your firearms, and I notice that you steadfastly defend against that which affects you personally. What a canard.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 95,723 Likes: 2 |
I'm outta this thread.
Those that condone the hypocrisy of the church covering up sex abuse for centuries and running a red herring up the pole to focus attention on other institutes are the reason it gets covered up by anyone.
It's wrong no matter who does it, or who covers it up. I'm not condoning it. It should have been adjudicated long ago. That is, if you could have even found a public official who cared enough about it even 60 years ago to press charges. If you think this is/was limited to the Catholic church, you need to wake up. It's every church, every organization that involves youth. ALL of them have covered it up. The Catholic church has made great strides in child protection while at least one institution locks people up for pointing out abuse. No, the leader of other Christian churces followed His Word and told their church leaders to get married, make woopi, and multiply, as opposed to a gay pope 600 years ago. 
Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
I Dindo Nuffin
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