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Fellows, the Berger he mentioned is the Classic Hunter which I believe is an easier design to tune in. Am I off base? You are correct that the hybrid or tangent ogive of the Classic Hunters is supposedly easier to tune than the VLD. They are designed for loading to whatever magazine length and picking a powder charge. That said, given the OP's 200 yd shot likelihood, there's no reason to go with Bergers in a 7 Mag. I'd not recommend them to average hunters because average hunters don't generally understand terminal ballistics very well, and Bergers have some limitations in that arena. Partitions and other tough bullets don't. That's why I'd recommend Partitions, purchased cheaply from SPS, to a guy just starting out, taking short shots with a magnum, on big animals. I was addressing the handloading aspect only. I'd be more comfy with a 160 Partition myself.
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Generally the Barnes TTSX “mono” Bullets require a little different technique than do cup and core bullets. Only in that, they like to be farther away from the lands. Not a problem.....just different. Often, they are very accurate. And, almost always perform very well on game. At our home.....nothing else is allowed for hunting! 😉 memtb
Last edited by memtb; 06/18/18.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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I will take the advice of those that have been doing this longer than me and just try the partitions to start off with.
Some mention "tuning". How do you know what part of the load recipe to change? What should I be looking for?
I more than likely will not be taking a hunting shot longer than 200 yards but I shoot at 300 for the extra practice. I would like to shoot out to 400-600 yards but I am not trying to get to that point before October.
Another dumb question I'm sure but does the brand of brass make a difference? I have a mix of Hornady, Winchester and Federal. Could that be a variable in finding what the gun likes?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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It can be. I'll assume you aren't mixing the makes in a given batch of loads. Given that they are separated, different makes have different capacities. So a load that works nicely in one may not be at it's best in another. (Or even be safe in another if you're working at a max charge level.)
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Tuning for me has mostly to do with the powder charge. Most of my rifles have factory throats the have the bullets well off the rifling when the cartridges fit the magazine. I might try seating shorter when a good charge level distinguishes itself.
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Yes, powder charge and the distance the bullet is off the lands.
I generally start at .030" off the lands and seldom have much reason to change that.
Modern temperature compensated powders are much better. With some older powders, a change of 30 F in barrel and ammunition temperature is equivalent to a change of 1 grain of powder. So trying to fine tune those down to .1 grain is an exercise in futility... unless, of course, your are controlling temperature down to plus or minus 3 degrees F.
I don't shoot 7mm Mag, but I suspect that a 160 grain Partition over Retumbo would be a winning combination. Somebody that has actually tried that combination can give you a better report than I can.
There are a multitude of ways to do it right. Enjoy the trip.
Last edited by denton; 06/18/18.
Be not weary in well doing.
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Yes, powder charge and the distance the bullet is off the lands.
I generally start at .030" off the lands and seldom have much reason to change that.
Modern temperature compensated powders are much better. With some older powders, a change of 30 F in barrel and ammunition temperature is equivalent to a change of 1 grain of powder. So trying to fine tune those down to .1 grain is an exercise in futility... unless, of course, your are controlling temperature down to plus or minus 3 degrees F.
I don't shoot 7mm Mag, but I suspect that a 160 grain Partition over Retumbo would be a winning combination. Somebody that has actually tried that combination can give you a better report than I can.
There are a multitude of ways to do it right. Enjoy the trip. How many man hours are consumed (wasted?) by handloaders meticulously weighing charges for typical deer rifles and shots inside 300 yards?
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Yes, powder charge and the distance the bullet is off the lands.
I generally start at .030" off the lands and seldom have much reason to change that.
Modern temperature compensated powders are much better. With some older powders, a change of 30 F in barrel and ammunition temperature is equivalent to a change of 1 grain of powder. So trying to fine tune those down to .1 grain is an exercise in futility... unless, of course, your are controlling temperature down to plus or minus 3 degrees F.
I don't shoot 7mm Mag, but I suspect that a 160 grain Partition over Retumbo would be a winning combination. Somebody that has actually tried that combination can give you a better report than I can.',
There are a multitude of ways to do it right. Enjoy the trip. How many man hours are consumed (wasted?) by handloaders meticulously weighing charges for typical deer rifles and shots inside 300 yards? Mathman, Wasted......is pretty subjective! For those that enjoy.....the payoff is much like any other hobby. You throw money at it! But if 300 yards is the reasonable/ likely shot....then let’s consider. A few dollars, and a little time can convert a 2” at a 100 yard rifle to a 1” rifle. The 2” @ 100 rifle, then becomes a 6” (likely) group at 300 yards, under the best of conditions. Now throw in, that most shooters from field positions are likely to triple their 100 yard group at 300 yards. There are, obvious, exceptions to my assumptions. If the “planets are aligned against the hunter) a deer at 300 could very easily be missed or wounded. The odds of a miss/wounding are substantially lowered with the 1” rifle, all else being equal! My math may not be perfect.... but I bet that it’s realistically close! memtb
Last edited by memtb; 06/18/18.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Two things to consider: 1. Errors in shooting/hitting do not add linearly. It's more of a square root of the sum of squares result. Because of this, halving a small error can well produce less overall improvement than a 20% reduction in a larger error in the combination. 2. It's quite feasible to shoot below MOA out to 300 yards with thrown charges of even long stick powders like 3031 and 4064. I do it all the time with sporter weight rifles. Other ducks, like the straightness of assembled cartridges, need to be in a row before (assuming a well developed load) small variations of charge weights amount to much.
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The odds of a miss/wounding are substantially lowered with the 1” rifle, all else being equal! My math may not be perfect.... but I bet that it’s realistically close! memtb Sometimes. But mostly not in practical hunting situations. I don't consider myself an outstanding marksman, but I can put most of my shots into about 7" at 100 yards shooting offhand. Just for grins, assume that's what I do with a superb benchrest rifle that shoots groups almost too small to measure. What is the effect of switching to a 3 MOA rifle, which most of would consider pretty marginal? The math says that groups, adding by the square root of the sum of the squares, will expand to 7.6". If you can shoot 4" groups off your backpack with the adrenaline pumping, using a 1" rifle, then switching to a 2" rifle will open your groups up to 4.35". The largest source of variation swamps out the others. That is why, as mathman says, working on the lesser sources of variation is an exercise in futility.
Be not weary in well doing.
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It's hard to go wrong with a Partition for elk. The Barnes TTSX is another good choice, and there are others.
I have no doubt that your rifle will stabilize a 160 grain bullet. I shoot them in my 7x57, which has a lot less case capacity, and they work fine.
You'll get disagreement on this, and sometimes I get heat for it:
A standard cup and core bullet will open as long as it impacts at at least 2100 FPS. Some cup and cores will open at 1800 FPS. Standard cup and core bullets tend to start to break apart at about 2800 FPS. Anywhere between their minimum opening speed and 2800 FPS, they will produce a practically constant 14 inch wound channel.
Switching to a Partition or a TTSX gets you reliable opening at 1800 FPS, and the bullet will hang together at whatever speed you can push it to. In their operating range, these bullets will produce a practically constant 16 inch wound channel.
As long as the impact speed is in the designed operating window, you'll get essentially the same length wound channel, determined by bullet construction, give or take hitting one of the very large bones.
Additional speed gets you more range, not more killing power.
Most of the guys I know favor heavier bullets, which seem to survive contact with one of the large bones better than a lighter bullet. But my hobby is ballistics and target shooting, and you'll get better advice on that from someone who is a better hunter than I am. I'm in agreement
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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For first timer I wouldn't be screwing around with a Berger bullet. [bleep] will have you pulling your hair out before it's all said and done. Get some partitions or hornady 162. The hornady bullet by far one of the more easier bullets to load for. Good post John. Even about the 162 interlock. That's a good all around deer and elk bullet.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Yes, powder charge and the distance the bullet is off the lands.
I generally start at .030" off the lands and seldom have much reason to change that.
Modern temperature compensated powders are much better. With some older powders, a change of 30 F in barrel and ammunition temperature is equivalent to a change of 1 grain of powder. So trying to fine tune those down to .1 grain is an exercise in futility... unless, of course, your are controlling temperature down to plus or minus 3 degrees F.
I don't shoot 7mm Mag, but I suspect that a 160 grain Partition over Retumbo would be a winning combination. Somebody that has actually tried that combination can give you a better report than I can.
There are a multitude of ways to do it right. Enjoy the trip. How many man hours are consumed (wasted?) by handloaders meticulously weighing charges for typical deer rifles and shots inside 300 yards? I don't know about others, but I load them like I'm going to be be shooting 600 yards. For a fast 7mm, that's exceptionally important.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Yes, powder charge and the distance the bullet is off the lands.
I generally start at .030" off the lands and seldom have much reason to change that.
Modern temperature compensated powders are much better. With some older powders, a change of 30 F in barrel and ammunition temperature is equivalent to a change of 1 grain of powder. So trying to fine tune those down to .1 grain is an exercise in futility... unless, of course, your are controlling temperature down to plus or minus 3 degrees F.
I don't shoot 7mm Mag, but I suspect that a 160 grain Partition over Retumbo would be a winning combination. Somebody that has actually tried that combination can give you a better report than I can.',
There are a multitude of ways to do it right. Enjoy the trip. How many man hours are consumed (wasted?) by handloaders meticulously weighing charges for typical deer rifles and shots inside 300 yards? Mathman, Wasted......is pretty subjective! For those that enjoy.....the payoff is much like any other hobby. You throw money at it! But if 300 yards is the reasonable/ likely shot....then let’s consider. A few dollars, and a little time can convert a 2” at a 100 yard rifle to a 1” rifle. The 2” @ 100 rifle, then becomes a 6” (likely) group at 300 yards, under the best of conditions. Now throw in, that most shooters from field positions are likely to triple their 100 yard group at 300 yards. There are, obvious, exceptions to my assumptions. If the “planets are aligned against the hunter) a deer at 300 could very easily be missed or wounded. The odds of a miss/wounding are substantially lowered with the 1” rifle, all else being equal! My math may not be perfect.... but I bet that it’s realistically close! memtb Amen brother..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Even about the 162 interlock. a.k.a the poor man's Partition. I equipped my 16 YO granddaughter with my 7x57 and 139 grain Interlocks loaded to 2800 FPS, and felt that she had a combination that would perform well and not bruise her.
Be not weary in well doing.
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I don't know about others, but I load them like I'm going to be be shooting 600 yards. For a fast 7mm, that's exceptionally important. I just did a little figuring along this line. I picked the 7mm Rem mag since it's a common fast 7mm. I looked at published data for 150 and 160 grain bullets for a couple of typical powders. I found the velocity increment per grain of charge to be close to 50 fps/grain. Let's assume a 0.6 grain charge spread, +/- 0.3 grains on either side of whatever is optimum. This would account for 30 fps high to low. Running a 0.5 G1 BC at 3000 fps and 3030 fps through the basic Hornady calculator set to a 300 yard zero shows 1.1" of difference in drop at 600 yards.
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Drop is easily adjusted for.... “wind doping” is a very difficult skill to master. Higher BC’s and velocities will help at extended ranges! I welcome any help I can get at any and all ranges! memtb
Last edited by memtb; 06/19/18.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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The 30 fps accounts for less than an inch in wind drift difference for a 20 mph full value crosswind.
Last edited by mathman; 06/19/18.
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No doubt....30 fps is insignificant even with “vastly” different BC’s. memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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No doubt....30 fps is insignificant even with “fairly significant “ different BC’s. memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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