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This is very interesting to me.
Are the testing and results something that can be made public? It would be very interesting to see which scopes failed and in which area(s) they failed.
I have received several questions about this- no, unfortunately the test and results can not be shared. Every major brand had a scope/scopes evaluated. I see a lot of scopes used on an individual level, and if there are specific questions I might be able to answer them.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I have not posted in this thread as it has (had) nothing to do with me and much prior experience has shown me that critical discussions do not go well with company reps. However as it seems there is confusion and or inference of what happened or did not happen with the Tract scope I was sent- so here we go.
First a bit of background-
Anyone can think anything they want about testing, repeatability, legitimacy, or relevance of how to evaluate a scope. The reality is I evaluate them as needed for field use. Will a 12” drop on a padded mat pass strict peer review in a controlled study? No. But it is absolutely a legitimate test to tell if a scope will hold zero: if the mounts and gun are beyond reproach. I was the lead on the most intensive and largest scope evaluation/test that has ever been conducted within the DOD- 18 months, 200,000 rounds with every single legitimate scope in that category being tested. For the first time scopes were tested for absolute function with no bias whatsoever by knowledgeable end users- not engineers that have no idea what we do with aiming devices. Tracking, adjustment error, zero retention, return to zero, side and top impacts, longevity under recoil, SFP vs FFP, mil vs MOA, and operational performance. Scopes were zeroed on guns with brand new barrels with a certain lot on ammunition and checked for zero retention constantly with only that lot.
Only two scopes came out of that not having failure- Nightforce and SWFA. The results of that project is being used by two major entities of the DOD to shape what and how they test optics.
Now for the Tract-
I did not ask for the Tract in any way. I said no when I was contacted about it being sent to me as I knew what the fallout would be from the “rep” and the company if it did poorly. It was stated by both the person that had it and the “rep” that they wanted it sent to me. I plainly stated how it would be tested, what I was looking for, and that if it failed it would probably be non-functional when Tract got it back. I also reiterated that I did not think they would like what the results would be, and that they should probably send it to someone else. That if it was “good” everyone would know it, and if it failed everyone would know. It was insisted that I test it. I also asked if they wanted me to replace the mount with another, I was told “nope” it’s good. Ok.
Well guess what? When mounted to a rifle of absolute consistency it produced 10 round groups of two-times the normal. It failed the most basic task a scope has- zeroing, holding POI during recoil, and zero retention. There was no malice, no bias, no subjective feelings, no “beliefs”, no “I wish”, no nonsense. It was tested exactly like every other scope I test/eval right up until the point it failed. That scope was sent back to Tract.
I did not ask for, and advised against it being sent to me because it was, and is, plainly obvious that Tract and their reps like almost every other company will try to hem and haw their way out of the results when it goes against their beliefs instead of owning it and improving the product. EVERY company, rep, engineer, and person will claim all day long how they want real results, and honest feedback.... right up until it goes against their product, their most recent purchase, or their favorite. People do not want truth- they want bliss. I’m happy to work with any company that actually desires to produce solid products, but I have no time for marketing, “features”, or salesman.
There has been calls to send me another Tract- DO NOT send me one. You won’t own the results. Mic drop........ Nuff said...
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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This thread started on 6/11. Today is 7/13. Personally, I'm moved by Tract's commitment to finding the scope. Most companies would've given up looking for it weeks ago. I made these flyers for you to hang up in your warehouse. I hope they help.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Campfire Regular
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This thread started on 6/11. Today is 7/13. Personally, I'm moved by Tract's commitment to finding the scope. Most companies would've given up looking for it weeks ago. I made these flyers for you to hang up in your warehouse. I hope they help. LOL Love it !!!! Well done sir
NRA LIfe Member, Colt, Sig, Smith & Wesson, Springfield Armorer, NYBIN , NYPD Firearms Examiner, Serial Number Restoration, Cerakote, Gunkote, and Duracoat finishes
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It is amazing to me, how companies get butt hurt over poor evaluation of their products. A friend of mine was an editor of an outdoor magazine. He was given some spotting scopes to test. He did an honest evaluation and found out that was not what they wanted, when they pulled $25,000 in ad money from the mag. I will never buy that brand of high-end optics.
You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it. A "creek" has water in it, a "crick" is what you get in your neck. Liberals with guns are nothing but hypocrites.
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Campfire Outfitter
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It is amazing to me, how companies get butt hurt over poor evaluation of their products. A friend of mine was an editor of an outdoor magazine. He was given some spotting scopes to test. He did an honest evaluation and found out that was not what they wanted, when they pulled $25,000 in ad money from the mag. I will never buy that brand of high-end optics. It's for this reason that I find it hard to take results in a magazine sans a grain of salt.
This is very interesting to me.
Are the testing and results something that can be made public? It would be very interesting to see which scopes failed and in which area(s) they failed.
I have received several questions about this- no, unfortunately the test and results can not be shared. Every major brand had a scope/scopes evaluated. I see a lot of scopes used on an individual level, and if there are specific questions I might be able to answer them. Understand and appreciate it. Not brand/model specific, but overall, could you share the most common areas of failure? Areas (or tests) that a user should look at/test first if they are testing an unknown scope....something of an "if it passes these tests, the others are probably fine"? ................. There has been calls to send me another Tract- DO NOT send me one. You won’t own the results.
Should be noted that even if Tract doesn't own the results, the results of your testing are useful to others.
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Here is an insider tip in regards to testing. Writers won't review certain things because if the review goes bad they will pull advertising money. No most of these writers and magazines have too much to loose. I guess that's better then someone doing at test and saying the product in questions worked great when its a POS.
NRA LIfe Member, Colt, Sig, Smith & Wesson, Springfield Armorer, NYBIN , NYPD Firearms Examiner, Serial Number Restoration, Cerakote, Gunkote, and Duracoat finishes
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Here is an insider tip in regards to testing. Writers won't review certain things because if the review goes bad they will pull advertising money. No most of these writers and magazines have too much to loose. I guess that's better then someone doing at test and saying the product in questions worked great when its a POS. Like this? Hi Guys, Just getting back from vacation and some good news popped up. OL did another test and the TRACT Tekoa got some great ratings. I know not everyone is favorable of their reviews, but its great to see some of the newer companies, especially TRACT, getting some attention and accolades. Link to the review below. OL's best scopes of 2017or this? Hi Guys, Picked up a bird dog this past week, Wirehaird Pointing Griffon. Been a little sleep deprived but have here retrieving the wing at just 9 weeks. Going to be a great fall.. Anyway, we had the chance to work with Bryce Towsley and he gave our optics a little run through. Here's a good read that explains a little of Tract and his thoughts on some of the units. RifleShooter on Tract Optics
You better pray to the God of Skinny Punks that this wind doesn't pick up......
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Here is an insider tip in regards to testing. Writers won't review certain things because if the review goes bad they will pull advertising money. No most of these writers and magazines have too much to loose. I guess that's better then someone doing at test and saying the product in questions worked great when its a POS. Like this? Hi Guys, Just getting back from vacation and some good news popped up. OL did another test and the TRACT Tekoa got some great ratings. I know not everyone is favorable of their reviews, but its great to see some of the newer companies, especially TRACT, getting some attention and accolades. Link to the review below. OL's best scopes of 2017or this? Hi Guys, Picked up a bird dog this past week, Wirehaird Pointing Griffon. Been a little sleep deprived but have here retrieving the wing at just 9 weeks. Going to be a great fall.. Anyway, we had the chance to work with Bryce Towsley and he gave our optics a little run through. Here's a good read that explains a little of Tract and his thoughts on some of the units. RifleShooter on Tract Optics I'm well aware of your feeling towards Tract. I stand behind them since I've tested them myself. If they didn't work I wouldn't state they are good to go.
NRA LIfe Member, Colt, Sig, Smith & Wesson, Springfield Armorer, NYBIN , NYPD Firearms Examiner, Serial Number Restoration, Cerakote, Gunkote, and Duracoat finishes
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I think I found it....
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Campfire Tracker
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My feelings toward Tract are based purely on Tract’s track record of excellent internet lip service.
Like I said in this very thread.... their Toric Binocular is amazing. It outpaces everything in its class... easily. But I won’t buy one, due in large part to the way they’ve represented themselves here.
You better pray to the God of Skinny Punks that this wind doesn't pick up......
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Campfire Outfitter
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Here is an insider tip in regards to testing. Writers won't review certain things because if the review goes bad they will pull advertising money. No most of these writers and magazines have too much to loose. I guess that's better then someone doing at test and saying the product in questions worked great when its a POS. Like this? Hi Guys, Just getting back from vacation and some good news popped up. OL did another test and the TRACT Tekoa got some great ratings. I know not everyone is favorable of their reviews, but its great to see some of the newer companies, especially TRACT, getting some attention and accolades. Link to the review below. OL's best scopes of 2017or this? Hi Guys, Picked up a bird dog this past week, Wirehaird Pointing Griffon. Been a little sleep deprived but have here retrieving the wing at just 9 weeks. Going to be a great fall.. Anyway, we had the chance to work with Bryce Towsley and he gave our optics a little run through. Here's a good read that explains a little of Tract and his thoughts on some of the units. RifleShooter on Tract Optics I'm well aware of your feeling towards Tract. I stand behind them since I've tested them myself. If they didn't work I wouldn't state they are good to go. Brian, How many have you tested, and which models were they?
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.... and how were they tested?
You better pray to the God of Skinny Punks that this wind doesn't pick up......
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.... and how were they tested? Does it really matter? No matter how I tested it you'll say I was flawed or have a vested interest. I've tested the Toric and Tekoa out to 700 yards and the 22 out to 50 yards. I myself haven't tested the new 30mm model as of yet. I'd say I've run about 6 scopes on my rifles.
NRA LIfe Member, Colt, Sig, Smith & Wesson, Springfield Armorer, NYBIN , NYPD Firearms Examiner, Serial Number Restoration, Cerakote, Gunkote, and Duracoat finishes
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Of course it matters.... you’re the spokesman, so speak about it.
You better pray to the God of Skinny Punks that this wind doesn't pick up......
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Of course it matters.... you’re the spokesman, so speak about it. Give it a break dude. Obviously only Night Force and SWFA passed the military tests. All others failed. That includes S&B and a lot of other scopes ( aiming devices ) that most folks consider top of the line. I have some old Redfield's and Leopold's from the 70's that have lord knows how many rounds through them that are still fine. But they sure haven't been subjected to as many rounds as Form and his guys put them through but it still has been a lot of rounds over the years. You are holding on to tight to what Trevor said. Let it go. Tract may well be a great scope for the general shooter/hunter but still not be something our brave and knowledgeable men and women in our military will use. That is my two cents from a hunter, fisherman, and general outdoorsman that does stuff every chance he gets.
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store; not a government agency.
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So Tract is good enough for the average shooter. Great slogan. I'm probably below average but I want good equipment so I know the problems are on me. SWFA's fall in every ones budget and NF seems to be in a lot of people's.
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