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Joined: Nov 2013
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
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Yup, only weight and price.
Nothing stops anyone from using whatever they thinks works for them and that they're wiling and able to pay for. And there's no reason a company shouldn't offer products at price and performance levels that will sell.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,310 Likes: 21
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,310 Likes: 21 |
Nothing stops anyone from using whatever they thinks works for them and that they're wiling and able to pay for. And there's no reason a company shouldn't offer products at price and performance levels that will sell.
Yep. That's pretty much the idea when you're in business.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,051
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
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People have to realize there is a big difference between military grade optics and hunting grades. This is where we differ. That is usually an excuse made by companies who make “hunting scopes”, designed for light duty. Aside from applications where absolute weight savings is paramount (for those who feel so inclined), I can’t think of a good reason why hunting scopes shouldn’t be made to the same durability and ruggedness standards as mil-grade scopes. I agree with you but that's when the cost is driven up. Nobody wants to go on a hunt of a lifetime and worry about their optic.
NRA LIfe Member, Colt, Sig, Smith & Wesson, Springfield Armorer, NYBIN , NYPD Firearms Examiner, Serial Number Restoration, Cerakote, Gunkote, and Duracoat finishes
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,934 Likes: 23 |
I could see a middle ground where a hunting scope could have precise, durable, repeatable adjustments without having a main tube you could use to beat down a muzzie insurgent.
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,972
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,972 |
People have to realize there is a big difference between military grade optics and hunting grades. This is where we differ. That is usually an excuse made by companies who make “hunting scopes”, designed for light duty. Aside from applications where absolute weight savings is paramount (for those who feel so inclined), I can’t think of a good reason why hunting scopes shouldn’t be made to the same durability and ruggedness standards as mil-grade scopes. How about money,and that there's lots of "deer hunters" who would never pay more than $200 for a scope.
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 29,030 Likes: 28
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 29,030 Likes: 28 |
I could see a middle ground where a hunting scope could have precise, durable, repeatable adjustments without having a main tube you could use to beat down a muzzie insurgent. Me too. I think there's a few that qualify, at least some of the time. As yet, no one's explained to me if the current issues with formerly reliable brands is the result of poor new designs, poor materials, or poor QC (that last would explain why some never have trouble with their VX-3s and FX-IIs and 3s, while others have given up on them). For now, about all you can do is read reviews, ask questions of others, and take your chances.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,310 Likes: 21
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,310 Likes: 21 |
How about money,and that there's lots of "deer hunters" who would never pay more than $200 for a scope.
I'd venture to guess that these mid priced scopes work fine for the vast majority of deer hunters. BTW, why did you put "deer hunters" in quotes? Are you asserting that only real deer hunters pay more than $200 for their scopes?
Last edited by JGRaider; 06/12/18.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,360 Likes: 19
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,360 Likes: 19 |
As yet, no one's explained to me if the current issues with formerly reliable brands is the result of poor new designs, poor materials, or poor QC (that last would explain why some never have trouble with their VX-3s and FX-IIs and 3s, while others have given up on them).
You left out "More and more shooters with the ability to discern the difference between a scope with reliable adjustments, and one without."
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,571 |
SWFA makes a “military grade” scope, that isn’t crazy heavy, with multiple reticle and turret options.... in fixed power for $300, and 3-9x for $600.
Why can’t Tract, or anyone else do that?
First thing I’d do, if you’re looking at restoring Tract’s reputation here.... is send a new demo scope to Form, and let him wring it out. Good or bad.... I’d respect Tract for putting it’s glass up for the Pepsi Challenge, especially since the last one failed miserably.... and all we got for an explanation was a bunch of snake-oil lip service.
You better pray to the God of Skinny Punks that this wind doesn't pick up......
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2004
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SWFA makes a “military grade” scope, that isn’t crazy heavy, with multiple reticle and turret options.... in fixed power for $300, and 3-9x for $600.
Why can’t Tract, or anyone else do that?
First thing I’d do, if you’re looking at restoring Tract’s reputation here.... is send a new demo scope to Form, and let him wring it out. Good or bad.... I’d respect Tract for putting it’s glass up for the Pepsi Challenge, especially since the last one failed miserably.... and all we got for an explanation was a bunch of snake-oil lip service. SWFA makes a scope that many find useful, but I would not call a scope with a two piece main tube that you can unintentionally unscrew "military grade".
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2001
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I’d call a scope awarded a military contract “military grade”....
You better pray to the God of Skinny Punks that this wind doesn't pick up......
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,446 |
I’d call a scope awarded a military contract “military grade”.... Since I work in a world where military contracts are awarded for COTS every day, I would not. For example, I would not refer to the Redfield variables procured under a military contract for use in Viet Nam as military grade, while I would describe the only military sniper scope that I have seen in the hands of a user as opposed to reading about, a Unertl 10x in the hands of a USMC scout sniper team at Camp Pendleton's urban training center in 1999, as military grade. The Unertl and the M40 it was mounted on was a revelation to me, the scope defining "military grade" and the rifle "military use" to me, a mere civilian. The Unertl did not look like you could unintentionally disassemble it.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2005
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I’d call a scope awarded a military contract “military grade”.... ? I'm not all up on the details, but I think a solicitation contract is a contract to produce something for consideration. Specs are set and the object is produced to those specs. I'm not sure that a contract other than a solicitation contract was ever secured. I think the solicitation contract was only for a 10x specific version that has now had the specs changed....so it wouldn't be "military grade" as defined. I've got several of them and think they are the best bang for the $ going. They don't need extra info added to them to sale.
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 29,030 Likes: 28
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 29,030 Likes: 28 |
SWFA makes a “military grade” scope, that isn’t crazy heavy, with multiple reticle and turret options.... in fixed power for $300, and 3-9x for $600.
Why can’t Tract, or anyone else do that?
First thing I’d do, if you’re looking at restoring Tract’s reputation here.... is send a new demo scope to Form, and let him wring it out. Good or bad.... I’d respect Tract for putting it’s glass up for the Pepsi Challenge, especially since the last one failed miserably.... and all we got for an explanation was a bunch of snake-oil lip service. In fairness, we have to consider that SWFA bought a design already paid for by someone else and doesn't have to factor R&D costs into its pricing. Also, with the reputation for that scope established, advertising costs are minimal. I agree that another maker or several, could do a better job, as could SWFA by bringing out essentially the same scope with low-profile turrets and a better hunting reticle. So far, they've resisted that opportunity. Tract already has numerous positive reviews of its better models. Not sure what major impact to their bottom line giving one to Form would accomplish, but It's worth consideration, minus the tossing around business, which looks like fun, but is hardly scientific or repeatable. Better would be impact tests on a test fixture that would be measureable and serve as a basis for comparison among similar products.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 12
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 12 |
People have to realize there is a big difference between military grade optics and hunting grades. This is where we differ. That is usually an excuse made by companies who make “hunting scopes”, designed for light duty. Aside from applications where absolute weight savings is paramount (for those who feel so inclined), I can’t think of a good reason why hunting scopes shouldn’t be made to the same durability and ruggedness standards as mil-grade scopes. How about money,and that there's lots of "deer hunters" who would never pay more than $200 for a scope. SWFA has shown with its fixed power line, that price is not a valid reason to make paper-mache scopes, especially since the products in question here (the Japan-made models) are not priced as blister pack products. Of course there will always be hunters who buy $50 Tasco’s to mount on their hunting rifles, but I don’t think that’s what we’re discussing here.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 12
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 12 |
I could see a middle ground where a hunting scope could have precise, durable, repeatable adjustments without having a main tube you could use to beat down a muzzie insurgent. What’s the down side to such a main tube, assuming cost wasn’t much different, an extra ounce?
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 12
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 12 |
I’d call a scope awarded a military contract “military grade”.... ? I'm not all up on the details, but I think a solicitation contract is a contract to produce something for consideration. Specs are set and the object is produced to those specs. I'm not sure that a contract other than a solicitation contract was ever secured. I think the solicitation contract was only for a 10x specific version that has now had the specs changed....so it wouldn't be "military grade" as defined. I've got several of them and think they are the best bang for the $ going. They don't need extra info added to them to sale. The original model was made to military specifications successfully. I would call that military grade. Whether or not it was awarded the production contract does not change its design and construction. I agree that the current model has deviated somewhat from the original version, but the construction is likely very similar.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,934 Likes: 23
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,934 Likes: 23 |
I don't know. I also don't know how much heavier a reliable adjustment mechanism is. Just thinking out loud.
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2001
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I didn’t bring up the whole “military grade” thing.... someone else did. I was simply using it to make a point.....
That point is: SWFA can make a 10x scope for $300 that can hang very well with some of the most expensive “military grade” Optics in the world. That’s fact, not simply my opinion. It’s been demonstrated repeatedly for years.... function, durability, reliability.... they take a backseat to very few scopes.
They may not be as refined, the “glass” may not be as good, they may not come with “pride of ownership’.... but when rounds start flying, they represent themselves quite well.
Again.... why can’t/won’t anyone else do the same?
Answer: They don’t have to.... they can produce a steaming pile of schitt, and sell it to your average “gun nut” in droves.... as long as they have some cool features and a good marketing department. 99.5% of people who buy scopes, would have no idea how their scope tracks, or returns to zero, or even stays “sighted in”. It’s easy to build a scope to those standards.... then have a “great warranty”.
You better pray to the God of Skinny Punks that this wind doesn't pick up......
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,652 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,652 Likes: 3 |
Again.... why can’t/won’t anyone else do the same?
Answer: They don’t have to.... they can produce a steaming pile of schitt, and sell it to your average “gun nut” in droves.... as long as they have some cool features and a good marketing department. 99.5% of people who buy scopes, would have no idea how their scope tracks, or returns to zero, or even stays “sighted in”. It’s easy to build a scope to those standards.... then have a “great warranty”.
That's about a wrap folks...
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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